Value of: Blake Coleman

[Chainshot]

I've loved Coleman as a 5-on-5 dynamo for years now, I just don't think Buffalo is a draw for him to waive to go to. *shrug* If they had a pro scouting department it would be trying to find the next Coleman instead of how they operate by throwing up their hands after not trying anything, saying it's the fault of trade protection.

 

[lanceuppercut75]

Devils should definitely look at Palat and pick(s) for Coleman. Or maybe Palat + Casey?

If Palat doesn't want to waive his NMC for Calgary, you work out which team he'll agree to go to that will take him, and Calgary trades him there immediately after acquiring him (possibly with retention). Depending on what Calgary is going to get in the second trade, and how much they retain, that helps shape the value of the pick / picks in the first trade coming from New Jersey. Both trades are negotiated before the first one is finalized. Easiest thing would be Palat just agreeing to play for Calgary.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Can’t wait to see the truck load of assets Calgary gets for Blake Coleman.

You literally compared 2 guys full careers when on of them has played in the league since age 20 and the other made his debuted at age 25. Then on top of that, both are 33 so anything that happened in their 20's should be obsolete to who they are today.

So using an actual respectable time frame of the last 3 seasons for comparison:

Coleman - 242 GP, 63 goals, 131 points, 46.8% on FO's, 162 blocks, 411 hits, 110 takeaways, 144 giveaways.

Coyle - 247 GP, 58 goals, 140 points, 51.2% on FO's, 184 blocks, 307 hits, 154 takeaways, 132 giveaways

Going further let's compare their on ice impact at 5v5 over that 3 year period:

Coleman - 68.1 CF/60, 53.0 CA/60, 33.7 SF/60, 26.1 SA/60, 2.38 GF/60, 2.27 GA/60, 3.02 xGF/60, 2.43 xGA/60, 32.2 SCF/60, 25.8 SCA/60

Coyle - 56.2 CF/60, 62.6 CA/60, 27.9 SF/60, 29.6 SA/60, 2.58 GF/60, 2.30 GA/60, 2.59 xGF/60, 2.65 xGA/60, 28.0 SCF/60, 28.9 SCA/60

Lastly no one has said Coleman should get the exact same or more than Coyle, Coyle playing primarily center does have its advantage in trade value. However this notion that Coleman is only worth a 4th or 3rd is ridiculous. He should easily return a 2nd+, maybe not a 2nd + a mid 20's 2nd line center but still a 2nd + something.

 

[Kegs]

You literally compared 2 guys full careers when on of them has played in the league since age 20 and the other made his debuted at age 25. Then on top of that, both are 33 so anything that happened in their 20's should be obsolete to who they are today.

So using an actual respectable time frame of the last 3 seasons for comparison:

Coleman - 242 GP, 63 goals, 131 points, 46.8% on FO's, 162 blocks, 411 hits, 110 takeaways, 144 giveaways.

Coyle - 247 GP, 58 goals, 140 points, 51.2% on FO's, 184 blocks, 307 hits, 154 takeaways, 132 giveaways

Going further let's compare their on ice impact at 5v5 over that 3 year period:

Coleman - 68.1 CF/60, 53.0 CA/60, 33.7 SF/60, 26.1 SA/60, 2.38 GF/60, 2.27 GA/60, 3.02 xGF/60, 2.43 xGA/60, 32.2 SCF/60, 25.8 SCA/60

Coyle - 56.2 CF/60, 62.6 CA/60, 27.9 SF/60, 29.6 SA/60, 2.58 GF/60, 2.30 GA/60, 2.59 xGF/60, 2.65 xGA/60, 28.0 SCF/60, 28.9 SCA/60

Lastly no one has said Coleman should get the exact same or more than Coyle, Coyle playing primarily center does have its advantage in trade value. However this notion that Coleman is only worth a 4th or 3rd is ridiculous. He should easily return a 2nd+, maybe not a 2nd + a mid 20's 2nd line center but still a 2nd + something.

I think centres are worth more. Look at Coyles defensive numbers too. He is superior. I like Coleman. I just don’t think he is in the same tier as coyle. I don’t think coyles trade is the bar for a Coleman trade.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I think centres are worth more. Look at Coyles defensive numbers too. He is superior. I like Coleman. I just don’t think he is in the same tier as coyle. I don’t think coyles trade is the bar for a Coleman trade.

??? No they aren't superior, I literally just posted them for you. Outside of actual goals against, where they are relatively even, Coleman's defensive numbers blow Coyle's out of the water.

I agree that centers are worth more, I am not arguing that. But in terms of value these 2 are way closer than you make them out to be

 

[MrLunatik]

??? No they aren't superior, I literally just posted them for you. Outside of actual goals against, where they are relatively even, Coleman's defensive numbers blow Coyle's out of the water.

I agree that centers are worth more, I am not arguing that. But in terms of value these 2 are way closer than you make them out to be

Exactly the point I started with and was told Coyle is twice the player, I even said Coleman would return less like you have.

 

[Hisch13r]

Devils should definitely look at Palat and pick(s) for Coleman. Or maybe Palat + Casey?

If Palat doesn't want to waive his NMC for Calgary, you work out which team he'll agree to go to that will take him, and Calgary trades him there immediately after acquiring him (possibly with retention). Depending on what Calgary is going to get in the second trade, and how much they retain, that helps shape the value of the pick / picks in the first trade coming from New Jersey. Both trades are negotiated before the first one is finalized. Easiest thing would be Palat just agreeing to play for Calgary.

Love Coleman. I’m not moving Casey for him.

I don’t really know how movable Palat is. I don’t think Calgary would be involved even as a 3rd party. There’s only 10 teams he can go to so that list will probably only be good teams. No one good should want Palat at 6 mil. It’d likely take half retained. Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t see Calgary as the team that’d want to retain on Palat when I imagine they’re trying to be competitive

 

[Hisch13r]

??? No they aren't superior, I literally just posted them for you. Outside of actual goals against, where they are relatively even, Coleman's defensive numbers blow Coyle's out of the water.

I agree that centers are worth more, I am not arguing that. But in terms of value these 2 are way closer than you make them out to be

Coleman’s definitely better than Coyle.

 

[lanceuppercut75]

Love Coleman. I’m not moving Casey for him.

I don’t really know how movable Palat is. I don’t think Calgary would be involved even as a 3rd party. There’s only 10 teams he can go to so that list will probably only be good teams. No one good should want Palat at 6 mil. It’d likely take half retained. Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t see Calgary as the team that’d want to retain on Palat when I imagine they’re trying to be competitive

Hypothetical: New Jersey retains $1.5m and Calgary retains $1.5m and playoff team gets him for a $3.0m cap hit

 

[Hisch13r]

Hypothetical: New Jersey retains $1.5m and Calgary retains $1.5m and playoff team gets him for a $3.0m cap hit

If possible I’d really rather just see if we could pay someone else a bit more to get them to retain the 3 mil for us. I also kind of just wonder where Fitz head is at. As of right now after re-signing Luke, Glass, and signing Gritsyuk for his ELC we’re only going to have like <1 mil in cap space. I think we might be able to eat another year of Palat if need be considering we need forward help and subtracting him you just have to replace him.

Dougie’s the one that makes the most sense for us to dump. To me there’s no ifs, ands, or buts about it with him. After that we’d probably be better off dumping Haula than Palat. Sure getting off the 6 mil of Palat would help more than 3.15 of Haula but I think we could basically get off Haula for free to just send him away while Palat will cost something and Dougie might already cost something to get off of.

 

[lanceuppercut75]

If possible I’d really rather just see if we could pay someone else a bit more to get them to retain the 3 mil for us. I also kind of just wonder where Fitz head is at. As of right now after re-signing Luke, Glass, and signing Gritsyuk for his ELC we’re only going to have like <1 mil in cap space. I think we might be able to eat another year of Palat if need be considering we need forward help and subtracting him you just have to replace him.

Dougie’s the one that makes the most sense for us to dump. To me there’s no ifs, ands, or buts about it with him. After that we’d probably be better off dumping Haula than Palat. Sure getting off the 6 mil of Palat would help more than 3.15 of Haula but I think we could basically get off Haula for free to just send him away while Palat will cost something and Dougie might already cost something to get off of.

If you guys are lucky, you can dump Hamilton somehow and take back only 2 or 3 million in cap space. You wouldn't be offered much else besides the cap space, but hey it solves the problem. It really depends on the teams Hamilton is willing to waive for though... San Jose could probably take on lots of cap, whereas somebody like Detroit or Islanders, not so much.

That would make retaining on Palat to get Coleman or whatever other cap issues less important.

 

[More 2004]

If you’re getting him, you might as well call San Jose and ask if Goodrow is available.

Don't want either now..

 

[Nanuuk]

I don't think Conroy will be actively looking to move Coleman despite the premise that the Flames need to make room for an up and coming winger.

I'm not sure who that is, but the value Coleman brings to the team is well beyond his cap hit.

Folks often refer to the 'Backlund bump' that allows the Coach to employ a rookie or a player in need of 'fixing' his game. But at the same time they often ignore the role that Coleman plays in giving that player a bump.

Coleman is durable (he's pretty much played full seasons in the last four years); he plays with energy and pace to record about 38 points every year; he knows where to go on the ice to play a solid possession game; he plays a gritty game and will stand up for his mates. He is a locker room leader.

Between Backlund and himself he gives any rookie the confidence to play and make mistakes because he knows the Captain and the Texas Tiger has his back.

All of this is the long way of saying that if the Flames trade him it won't be for picks. They will want to fill a capability gap such as at centre or at left defence.

And they would be loyal to Coleman by trading him to a destination of his choosing. So I suspect that if he is going anywhere it will be to a southern state (Florida, Tampa, Dallas). Maybe even add Carolina to that list.

If Dallas exits early this post season (maybe tonight) I expect they might be interested in Coleman's services. Flames might want a centre such as Mavrik Bourque in exchange.

 

[Kegs]

??? No they aren't superior, I literally just posted them for you. Outside of actual goals against, where they are relatively even, Coleman's defensive numbers blow Coyle's out of the water.

I agree that centers are worth more, I am not arguing that. But in terms of value these 2 are way closer than you make them out to be

40 more take aways, over 50 % faceoffs against top tier players. Less turn overs.

Bruins loved starting coyle in the defensive end too. He was utilized as a defensive centre.

Ok I was exaggerating when I said he is twice the player. But coyle plays a premium position. Less term on his contract. I know you say it’s a cheaper contract but only marginally no?

I just think adding a solid third line centre who can shut down top line players, contribute with the scoring and win you key faceoffs has a way higher value than a player like Coleman.

What about the extra year on Coleman’s contract? Does that lower his value a smidge? I only say that because he is a bit on the older side.