Bigger Legacy impact?

[Video Nasty]

For now, he is in the group of great offensive stars with Dionne

No, he’s well above that group.

I don’t mind people needing the Cup win to suddenly figure out he’s one of the five greatest players to ever step onto the ice.

That said, he’s probably in a tier of offensive players where only Gretzky and Lemieux top him.

The frenzy we saw on these very boards when McDavid nearly led the Oilers all the way back from a 3-0 deficit is a taste of things to come. Even die hards like @Nathaniel Skywalker threw in the towel and proclaimed him top 5 and ranked higher than Crosby after Game 5.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Messier wasn't in the same tier of player though. This makes no sense.

But if you are saying that Messier was a winner, then Crosby has that over McDavid. He has won at every he has played.



But Crosby has had the better career which is the point of the OP.

He doesn't though.

Only Gretzky, Hull and Mario have more Ross wins.

Only Gretzky, Hull and Shore have more Harts.

Only individual achievement he has over McDavid is more SCF disappearing acts.

 

[Felidae]

But I think another MacKinnon Hart Trophy will help MacKinnon's legacy the most. Back-to-back Hart's, the first since Ovechkin? There's only been 11 players to do that. The others are Howie Morenz, Eddie Shore, Gordie Howe, Bobby Hull, Stan Mikita, Bobby Orr, Bobby Clarke, Guy Lafleur, Wayne Gretzky, and Dominik Hasek. That's a list of players that elevates anyone's legacy. And when new fans are looking at Wikipedia in 30 years, he's not some one-off, they'll have to make the case that he was the best player even against McDavid since he won the Hart twice in a row during McDavid's prime. Add on the Art Ross and it impacts his legacy the most I think far down the line.

If we're going by this logic, then Kucherov winning the Art Ross 3 or more times would be an accomplishment only done by Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, McDavid, Jagr, Lafleur, Mikita and Esposito..

A slightly more rare and imo, impressive accomplishment since the hart can be narrative driven at times.

Not to mention, I think it would elevate his all time rankings by quite a bit since that means he out produced prime McDavid, the best offensive player since Lemieux, 3 times while being 3 years older.

 

[WalterLundy]

No, he’s well above that group.

I don’t mind people needing the Cup win to suddenly figure out he’s one of the five greatest players to ever step onto the ice.

That said, he’s probably in a tier of offensive players where only Gretzky and Lemieux top him.

The frenzy we saw on these very boards when McDavid nearly led the Oilers all the way back from a 3-0 deficit is a taste of things to come. Even die hards like @Nathaniel Skywalker threw in the towel and proclaimed him top 5 and ranked higher than Crosby after Game 5.

This is it right here. A cup win and a second smythe would make him a firm 5th all time and after only 10 seasons/age 28 if it happens this year. I personally already have him 5th but I feel like a Stanley cup victory is the only thing holding him back from the 5th spot as it stands currently in the eyes of many.

 

[Fatass]

No, he’s well above that group.

I don’t mind people needing the Cup win to suddenly figure out he’s one of the five greatest players to ever step onto the ice.

That said, he’s probably in a tier of offensive players where only Gretzky and Lemieux top him.

The frenzy we saw on these very boards when McDavid nearly led the Oilers all the way back from a 3-0 deficit is a taste of things to come. Even die hards like @Nathaniel Skywalker threw in the towel and proclaimed him top 5 and ranked higher than Crosby after Game 5.

And in the most important game (7 of the Final) McDavid didn’t get it done. It’s an opinion based question. Imo the greatest if the greatest separation from the great players (like Dionne) is leading at least one club to a Cup. McDavid is fabulous and clearly one of the greats. But imo he knows the Cup is needed to cement his legacy with the top tier.

 

[Video Nasty]

And in the most important game (7 of the Final) McDavid didn’t get it done. It’s an opinion based question. Imo the greatest if the greatest separation from the great players (like Dionne) is leading at least one club to a Cup. McDavid is fabulous and clearly one of the greats. But imo he knows the Cup is needed to cement his legacy with the top tier.

Not everyone is as blessed as Crosby who can sit for most of Game 7 and watch his teammates secure his first Cup win, making sure he didn’t have to wait until his 11th season to get his first Cup and Conn Smythe.

 

[thadd]

If number one and four can happen this year, this really puts drai way further upon the old-time best player list.

 

[Felidae]

If number one and four can happen this year, this really puts drai way further upon the old-time sex player list.

Very interesting autocorrect there..

Who is on this old-time sex player list?

 

[thadd]

Very interesting autocorrect there..

Who is on this old-time sex player list?

Thank you for noticing that the Google pixel 9 voice to text is complete ass.

 

[thadd]

I would like to add that if Drai wins his second Hart and the Oilers win cup plus consmythe, TSN still spends 10 times more time talking about the Leafs on the last day of the playoffs.

 

[T REX]

McDavid going Cup-less, assuming he sticks with Edmonton, is more of a black mark on the Oilers. Not McDavid. This isn't even the same argument that could be used against (pre-Cup) Ovechkin since Ovechkin did have post-seasons where he didn't look great (relatively to him) and his numbers weren't that impressive.

McDavid just put up 42 points in 25 games in the playoffs. Only two guys named Lemieux and Gretzky have scored more. Is anyone going to be questioning his post-season abilities in 50 years from now? Anyone going to be saying "He just wasn't made for the playoffs." No it's going to be "The McDavid Oilers management are the most inept of all time."

Totally disagree. I think he wins at least one but if he never does...everyone will blame him not the Oilers.

That is a pure dream.

 

[Paper]

Totally disagree. I think he wins at least one but if he never does...everyone will blame him not the Oilers.

Is this my Flames hating on the Oilers? Like who in their right mind will say the reason was McDavid, the McDavid of 42 points in 25 games, was the reason he couldn't win? Even when Ovechkin was Cup-less people would roll their eyes.

It's a team sport. It's a failure on the Oilers, not McDavid.

 

[T REX]

Is this my Flames hating on the Oilers? Like who in their right mind will say the reason was McDavid, the McDavid of 42 points in 25 games, was the reason he couldn't win? Even when Ovechkin was Cup-less people would roll their eyes.

It's a team sport. It's a failure on the Oilers, not McDavid.

It doesn't work that way no matter how many times you say it or give stats.

Sorry. You are trying to break 100 year of sports opinions.

McDavid is special but not exempt from true Super stars winning it all.

No one is re-writing the rules for him. Tough love buddy.

 

[daver]

And in the most important game (7 of the Final) McDavid didn’t get it done. It’s an opinion based question. Imo the greatest if the greatest separation from the great players (like Dionne) is leading at least one club to a Cup. McDavid is fabulous and clearly one of the greats. But imo he knows the Cup is needed to cement his legacy with the top tier.

You honestly think McDavid's playoff resume is the most comparable to Dionne's? Please explain.

 

[daver]

Im saying that the "winner" argument is a very flawed one in a sport like hockey. But if one is arguing for Crosby over McDavid due to winning, then they should probably argue for Messier over Crosby.

You think the Pens winning and Crosby's performances have no connection? He has four Conn Smythe worthy performances on his resume and a couple other "big point" runs through two rounds.

He is on the same tier offensively as McDavid shown by his per game dominance and he is the better 2-way player.

McDavid took advantage of being healthier at his peak to win more Rosses; Crosby took advantage of perhaps being on a better team to win Cups but that is certainly debatable. The supporting roster on their 2009 team was arguably worse than any of the Oilers' rosters in the past three playoffs. The 2017 team was weak on the back end as Letang missed the whole playoffs.

 

[HFpapi]

A cup, especially with a 2nd Smythe attached to it, for McDavid would make the "Big 4" into the "Big 5" unquestionably. There would be an absolute consensus about who the best 5 players of all time are.

You could argue Crosby is kind of getting cemented as the 5th best right now until McDavid surpasses him so maybe it would be a "big 6"consensus but with Crosby there is still debate, with McDavid, there would not be.

In fact, I don't even think Connor would be 5th in that big 5. I think he not only can but will pass Howe and he can conceivably rise as high as 2nd best of all-time.

 

[daver]

A cup, especially with a 2nd Smythe attached to it, for McDavid would make the "Big 4" into the "Big 5" unquestionably. There would be an absolute consensus about who the best 5 players of all time are.

You could argue Crosby is kind of getting cemented as the 5th best right now until McDavid surpasses him so maybe it would be a "big 6"consensus but with Crosby there is still debate, with McDavid, there would not be.

In fact, I don't even think Connor would be 5th in that big 5. I think he not only can but will pass Howe and he can conceivably rise as high as 2nd best of all-time.

If it isn't a Big 5 already, it's not going to be one. McDavid isn't on a level offensively with Wayne, Mario or Orr nor he is above Howe's level. Howe's all around game and longevity are as much a part of his legacy as is his peak.

 

[bobholly39]

Not at all surprised with the results, but I definitely disagree with them.

Though I guess, for #1 - who gets the smythe? Drai, or McDavid? It would be more impactful for Drai.

If it's McDavid - it doesn't do a ton for him. I think with the past few years, and last year's smythe, his legacy is already sealed. He's going to become the 5th greatest palyer ever by the time he retires at like ~90% certainty I'd say. Add 1 cup/smythe doesn't bump him to #4. Not a huge impact all things considered.

In contrast:

MacKinnon has 1 Hart. That's it. Give him an additional Art/Hart, and now his trophy case surpasses Forsberg, Sakic. Maybe poeple start to consider that career wise, he's actually in the mold of a Sakic, and maybe beyond that. That's a pretty huge impact. Does that place him in the top 30 players all-time? Close?

Kucherov, 3rd Ross. The list of players with 3 Art Ross trophies is super, super rare. The fact that he'd have done it vs healthy, peak McDavid 3x would be even more insane (let alone vs Mack and Drai and other strong competitors). He would not only be well beyond Malkin, could we start questioning if his resume is starting to near someone like Ovechkin, or jagr all-time? I think a 3rd Art Ross has a huge impact on his legacy and all-time ranking. Could it catapult him in the top ~20 all-time? Close?

Draisaitl. Same idea as MacKinnon - adding a 2nd hart Trophy + richard to his resume bumps his legacy up quite a bit.

I actually think #1 might be the lowest impact of the 4, legacy-wise.

I'm going to vote for Kucherov.

 

[bobholly39]

A cup, especially with a 2nd Smythe attached to it, for McDavid would make the "Big 4" into the "Big 5" unquestionably. There would be an absolute consensus about who the best 5 players of all time are.

You could argue Crosby is kind of getting cemented as the 5th best right now until McDavid surpasses him so maybe it would be a "big 6"consensus but with Crosby there is still debate, with McDavid, there would not be.

In fact, I don't even think Connor would be 5th in that big 5. I think he not only can but will pass Howe and he can conceivably rise as high as 2nd best of all-time.

No chance on a "big 5" with only one cup/smythe.

Whose #5 today? Crosby? Crosby has 3 cups and 2 smythes. Beliveau? Beliveau has 10 cups and a bunch of smythe like performances. Roy and his 4 cups and 3 smythes? And that's ignoring the big 4, all with their own multiple cups and smythes.

McDavid as of today seems like he will finish 5th all-time. So long as he doesn't fall off a cliff in performance, it seems all but assured he'll finish there.

Big 5? I think that's possible, but he needs more than one random cup/smythe to do it. He needs more "special things".

What is a "special thing"? Well - if the smythe itself was off of another ~45+ point performance, maybe even beating out Gretzky's 47 point playoff or the 19 goal record? Sure, let's talk, that's really special. Another special thing might be adding at least 2 more Rosses (so with 7 all-time, he'd be #2 alone behind Gretzky). Or maybe winning 3 more harts to finish wiht 6, #2 all-time tied with Howe.

The point is - just a random cup/smythe isn't enouhg to make it a "big 5".

To me, a "big 5" implies that you could argue any of those 5 players above one another. Which is what you can do with the big 4. You can argue Lemieux above Howe/Orr, maybe even say better than Gretzky was, or you can argue Orr #1, or Howe, or Gretzky. You can't really argue McDavid above either of those 4 guys. He stil needs more.

 

[WalterLundy]

Not everyone is as blessed as Crosby who can sit for most of Game 7 and watch his teammates secure his first Cup win, making sure he didn’t have to wait until his 11th season to get his first Cup and Conn Smythe.

1 goal, 3 points and -3 in the 7 games against the Red Wings in 2009. Detractors like to point that McDavid didn’t “show” in games 6 or 7 last year but conveniently forget that Crosby was scoreless in games 5-7 in the 2009 SCF while only registering 3 total shots and a -3. If pressed they will talk about how Zetterberg and Datsyuk turned into Gordie Howe and Sergei Fedorov and how Lidstrom had Brian rafalski do his best Ray Bourque impression.

Crosby’s SCF performance was poor but he had a team that was able to get it done that year and he himself contributed his share in the Washington series. People fixating on McDavid being a no show in games 6 and 7 show their ignorance or biases.

At the end of the day it’s a team sport and teams get it done. Gretzky and Lemieux won with several HOF players each in the pre salary cap era (albeit putting up masterpiece performances with said casts). Every big star of the pre salary cap era did. Crosby for example in modern hockey never had a finals performance for the ages and in the three cup runs never led the team in scoring. Nobody would dare accuse him of not being a cup worthy player though and nor should they. Top end, depth, defense and goaltending win championships in todays game and the oilers haven’t had that blend. Fair or not a Stanley cup is the only thing missing and needed for a firm 5th spot all time. You would think a smythe would come with that when/if it does.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Totally disagree. I think he wins at least one but if he never does...everyone will blame him not the Oilers.

That is a pure dream.

lol, why blame him, he did what he could, he won the Conn Smythe trophy for the playoffs after losing in game 7.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

1 goal, 3 points and -3 in the 7 games against the Red Wings in 2009. Detractors like to point that McDavid didn’t “show” in games 6 or 7 last year but conveniently forget that Crosby was scoreless in games 5-7 in the 2009 SCF while only registering 3 total shots and a -3. If pressed they will talk about how Zetterberg and Datsyuk turned into Gordie Howe and Sergei Fedorov and how Lidstrom had Brian rafalski do his best Ray Bourque impression.

Crosby’s SCF performance was poor but he had a team that was able to get it done that year and he himself contributed his share in the Washington series. People fixating on McDavid being a no show in games 6 and 7 show their ignorance or biases.

At the end of the day it’s a team sport and teams get it done. Gretzky and Lemieux won with several HOF players each in the pre salary cap era (albeit putting up masterpiece performances with said casts). Every big star of the pre salary cap era did. Crosby for example in modern hockey never had a finals performance for the ages and in the three cup runs never led the team in scoring. Nobody would dare accuse him of not being a cup worthy player though and nor should they. Top end, depth, defense and goaltending win championships in todays game and the oilers haven’t had that blend. Fair or not a Stanley cup is the only thing missing and needed for a firm 5th spot all time. You would think a smythe would come with that when/if it does.

Seriously. Some act like McDavid didn't have 11 pts in 7 games in the SCF, only 2 points off of Gretzky's record for most points in a SCF.

And on the flip side, in the 3 Cup wins (and 2 smythes) Crosby has a grand total of 2 goals in the SCF