Better Player in their 30s - Ovechkin or Crosby

[FMichael]

Crosby > Ovechkin

 

[Sky04]

At none of their corresponding ages would I rather have had Ovechkin, so comfortably Crosby. Being a specialist rather than a more well rounded offensive threat doesn't give Ovechkin some kind of boost. That said, Ovechkin has had a tremendous decade in his 30s even in an all time sense. Crosby's has been better but Ovechkin's 30s have been better than those of some all time great players.

Ovechkin turned into a pure sniper, great for him he adapted his best skillset to stay effective but he was far from the dominating force he was when he was younger, he remained productive and effective despite falling off in other areas. Crosby is a legitimate top tier center in the league still and has never dropped off far from that top group, he's still an elite player in just about every way.

 

[Son Goku]

Not a straw man if multiple posters (in this thread even) consistently use Crosby's defensive abilities as a reason why he's a superior player. It's ok if you can't answer or don't know, but please try to contribute something more interesting to the conversation. I'm looking for evidence for the claim that Crosby is as good defensively as people are asserting.

Ask his peers, that’s who voted him most complete player

 

[ItWasJustified]

Goals are the single most valuable thing a player can contribute.

This is not an argument unless you have the statistics on how many goals every player has scored entirely on their own.

 

[Nathaniel]

Not a straw man if multiple posters (in this thread even) consistently use Crosby's defensive abilities as a reason why he's a superior player. It's ok if you can't answer or don't know, but please try to contribute something more interesting to the conversation. I'm looking for evidence for the claim that Crosby is as good defensively as people are asserting.

Multiple top 10 selke finishes including a 4th place finish

 

[daver]

Not a straw man if multiple posters (in this thread even) consistently use Crosby's defensive abilities as a reason why he's a superior player. It's ok if you can't answer or don't know, but please try to contribute something more interesting to the conversation. I'm looking for evidence for the claim that Crosby is as good defensively as people are asserting.

Crosby was always going to contribute more defensively based in him being a C, moreso as being a C who clearly was responsible defensively throughout his whole career, or at least after getting his feet wet in the NHL.

OV, like Jagr, was given the greenlight to cheat defensively given his ability to create offense. He was clearly disengaged most of time in the defensive zone. He was good in 14/15 and during their 2018 Cup run.

Since 2010/11, Crosby was certainly good defensively, and usually the best among the top offensive players in the league.

That Crosby contributed as much, if not more offensively as OV, while contributing on the defensive end in comparison to OV, is a notable difference in a comparison.

 

[TheSmokingMan]

Ask his peers, that’s who voted him most complete player

Being voted as most complete player by other NHLers does say something. I was noticing that the players in this part of the survey are basically only centers. I guess it's because the position has inherently more defensive responsibilities than wingers.

Multiple top 10 selke finishes including a 4th place finish

This does also help provide Crosby more qualitative evidence of his credentials as a 2 way player, but by itself, it doesn't prove that he's a top defensive forward.

My concerns with accepting qualitative assessments, like surveys, whether it comes from players or journalists, is that they may not always accurately reflect the facts. In other words, respondents to these surveys may vote based on anecdotal evidence or reputation.

I would like to see a more quantitative argument, with statistical evidence, that demonstrates his effectiveness without the puck.

 

[TheSmokingMan]

Crosby was always going to contribute more defensively based in him being a C.

OV, like Jagr, was given the greenlight to cheat defensively given his ability to create offense. He was clearly disengaged most of time in the defensive zone.

That Crosby contributed as much, if not more offensively as OV, while contributing on the defensive end in comparison to OV, is a notable difference in a comparison.

So if the defensive expectations for a center are different than for a winger, would you say that it might be difficult or maybe not even appropriate to compare the defensive play of forwards who play different positions?

How did you determine who contributed more offensively? Was it total points? Goals? Primary points? Personal observation?

 

[Dingo]

As usual it's a toss up between these guys. Crosby's the more complete player but Ovechkin's goals can't be overlooked.

Do you like filet mignon or rib eye? Either way you win.

really bang on post

 

[Dingo]

So if the defensive expectations for a center are different than for a winger, would you say that it might be difficult or maybe not even appropriate to compare the defensive play of forwards who play different positions?

How did you determine who contributed more offensively? Was it total points? Goals? Primary points? Personal observation?

i think its really hard to compare the positions, ya.

Sid is going to, by role, pick up more secondary assists - more puck touches, stuck back in the defensive end more, faceoff assists

Ovechkin is, by role, more likely to score goals and not get secondary assists.

Ovechkin is actually a really good passer for a power forward.

Sid is actually a really good scorer when he needs to be.

We need to all just hug it out at this point.

 

[discobob]

Ask his peers, that’s who voted him most complete player

40+% of the league is Canadian, including the majority of the broadcasters. 6% of the league, and none of the media are Russian.

That affects player votes quite a bit because it it reputation based.

 

[pi314]

"It's like the five-tool guy vs. the home-run hitter: The five-tool guy finds more ways to win all the time," said a Western Conference head coach not involved in the tourney, via text message after Canada's 5-3 semifinal win Saturday.

"Full-court player vs. half-court player," added an Eastern Conference GM not involved in the World Cup, via text message during the third period.

 

[pi314]

40+% of the league is Canadian, including the majority of the broadcasters. 6% of the league, and none of the media are Russian.

That affects player votes quite a bit because it it reputation based.

Right. Couldn't be what the players see actually playing against them. Which includes votes from Russian players by the way.

 

[max21]

Ovechkin easily, nobody actually cares about a PPG record. There’s a reason it didn’t get really any national media attention. Micky mouse ass record. Ovechkin led his team to playoffs the last 2 seasons, Crosby last year with a far better team couldn’t even get his team in the postseason. Broke the all time goals record even with a broken leg this year. I mean what are we talking about.

 

[Frosty415]

Anyone saying Crosby is insane or biased as hell

400+ goals in your 30s is unheard of in the NHL and triumphs any ppg season Crosby has had

 

[Crow]

As usual it's a toss up between these guys. Crosby's the more complete player but Ovechkin's goals can't be overlooked.

Do you like filet mignon or rib eye? Either way you win.

How is Crosby more complete? He flat out sucks defensively.

 

[jalapenoWithAnH]

Ovechkin was better from day one.

1. Remove generational Malkin's help and Sid is on Thornton tier. Half of his awards due to Malkin's help.

So why didnt Ovi win any Olympic golds with Malkins help in 2010 or 2014?

2. Their hardwares incomparable. Ovi 18 v 11 Sid. And NHL took away 4-5 awards from Ovechkin. He could have more Rosses than Sid.

I don't know which hardware you are talking about but Sid is the only player ever to have Art, Rocket, Ted Lindsay, SC, Conn Smythe, Hart, Olympic Gold, World Cup gold, World Championship gold and World Juniors Gold. Only one that comes close is Sakic with 8 those, but he is missing Art and Rocket.

2. Ovechkin is top 5 all-time at least; w/o HOFers help; makes his team better (.614 with and .513 w/o)
Sid makes his team worse (.601 with and .633 w/o).

This is wildly misleading and has been debunked many times here in HFboards. He has just played more healthier on a bad team like during his rookie season. And when he has been injured he has been playing with a good team.

It's a team sport. If a player makes his team worse he shouldn't even consider being in top 10

But he doesn't make his team worse. Tf, you really believe that shit? He is all time leader for Penguins in assists and game winning goals. Also has second most points, second most power play points and has the second best plus minus in the same all time stat.

Not to mention how integral part he has played when Penguins has won a Stanley Cup:
- He won the Conn Smythe during 2/3 Cup runs.
-In each of the Cup run he was the second best scorer on his team in playoffs
-During their first Cup run he scored the most goals and won the most faceoffs for his team in the playoffs
-During their second Cup run he scored most game winning goals and won the most faceoffs for his team in the playoffs
-During their third Cup run he scored the most assists and won the most faceoffs for his team in the playoffs. He also won Rocket during the regular season this year
-in 2010 he scored the Golden Goal in Olympics and tied for the second place in scoring for his team

3. Three points system is awful.
Secondary assists made by goalscorers don't count. Centers always have more random touches => more points.
By primary points Ovechkin is way ahead.

Cope and moving the goal posts. Desperation.


You really should delete that whole comment since otherwise it will result in shame and embarrasment for you and your family until the end of times.

 

[pi314]

How is Crosby more complete? He flat out sucks defensively.

Probably just a coincidence that he’s won everything you can possibly win. At every level.

 

[Crow]

Probably just a coincidence that he’s won everything you can possibly win. At every level.

If you want to give him credit for team achievements you can also recognize that he hasnt done shit to get his team going anywhere in many years, in part due to his very poor defensive play.

 

[tfwnogf]

Ovechkin, it's not even close.

 

[jalapenoWithAnH]

Everyone who says Crosby is bad at defending should watch this video. 10 minutes of Hart/Selke/Conn Smythe level defending/forechecking from Crosby:

 

[mad4comp]

I don't see how this is even a question. Ovechkin without a doubt has been the much better and more consistent player in his 30's.

 

[TeeTee]

How is Crosby more complete? He flat out sucks defensively.

When I read this, it tells me that you do not watch him play.

 

[Crow]

When I read this, it tells me that you do not watch him play.

I’ve seen him play twice in the last week alone, many times this year, he sucks.

 

[jalapenoWithAnH]

I don't see how this is even a question. Ovechkin without a doubt has been the much better and more consistent player in his 30's.

Crosby has been a non factor in most of his 30s. Ovechkin always a threat except for a down year in 23-24

I don't get why anyone on either side of this debate says that one is 'by far the better player.' That's nonsense.

They are different players. But you can't overlook a guy who consistently wins Rockets. Goals are the single most valuable thing a player can contribute. Ovechkin is the most consistent, best goal scorer of all-time. That is a massive argument in his favour.

Want to take Crosby? Cool. Many reasons to do so. But I have no problem taking Ovechkin. Both are phenomenal talents.

Sometimes it’s trolling. More often than not though people seem to think using terms like “it’s not even debatable” is an argument of its own. It isn’t. “You’re wrong” isn’t argument either.

Again, no issue with someone who wants to argue either side here. But if you’re going to argue a point, then bring in facts to back your position up. Both players have strong arguments for being best in their era.

Ovechkin’s goal numbers are unworldly. Breaking Gretzky’s record was unthinkable. One of the holiest of the holys. And OV reached 894 in one fewer game than Wayne Gretzky. …Wayne Gretzky. He did it in a lower scoring era too.

I don’t have an adequate superlative for this.

Holy shit the bias/hate here is insane.

"Over this same period, Ovi has become truly one of the most utterly useless (like, widely regarded as downright bad) players without the puck in the league, while Crosby has evolved into a widely highly regarded two-way player with significant Selke consideration and some of the better face-off stats in hockey."
Crosby has not been a widely regarded 2-way player, and has not received significant Selke consideration. Outside of 2019 he has either gotten no Selke recognition, or gotten a handful of throwaway votes. But he has never been anywhere close to a Selke-level player. And in recent years he has been downright bad on the defensive side.

Yeah, Crosby is good at faceoffs, but we're talking about maybe the 25th best in the league since 2018. So nothing to write home about.

"The Rockets mean little more than proving this point, which is the entirety of Ovi’s claim to fame,"
The Rockets represent play. Silly comment

"Crosby has generated 15% more offence (while being less reliant on the powerplay,"
Crosby has been equally reliant on the powerplay as Ovi. In their 30's, 32% of Crosby's points are powerplay, and for Ovi it's 34%.

"his per-game offensive production pushes beyond 33% greater than Ovi in the playoffs."
From ages 30-37 for both players, Crosby has no real big advantage in playoffs. More than doubling the sample size, Ovi's goal/gp is slightly higher, Crosbys's point/gp slightly higher.

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"Ovi is the better goalscorer, in significant part due more to play style and shooting volume than particular skills."
This is just a backhanded comment to degrade Ovi. You don't understand that the point of the game is to get shots on net and to score goals then clearly. Shots on net aren't a bad thing.

"From age-30 onwards, Ovi has Hart trophy finishes of 7, 9, 10. Crosby already has 2, 4, 9 and is marching towards another lofty finish despite his defensive game suffering this season."
A) So you're telling me there is almost no difference between Hart finishes in their 30's
B) Crosby should be nowhere near a "lofty finish" this year. The guy is 12th in points and 44th in goals, and has some of the absolute worst defensive metrics in the league. He's having a great year for a 37 year-old don't get me wrong, but not a top-10 player.

OV for 30+

Ovechkin isn't even in the top 20 of the most effective point producers from 2020s. Crosby is 11th.

Here's the top 20 arranged by point per game totals from that time frame (regular season and playoffs):

Ovi's ppg in this stat is roughly 1.