Best Two-Way Season Since 1967 Expansion - #1

[DitchMarner]

Vote for the best overall combination of offense and defense. I'm limiting the options to forwards only as defensemen are naturally going to be in a position to make a greater impact defensively.

Note: These are not necessarily the best overall seasons since '67. If Gretzky has a 200+ point season where his contributions are 90-95% offensive and 5-10% defensive, his season can be better in terms of net impact than any seasons listed as options. However, the spirit of these polls is to vote for the best combination of offense and defense from forwards and to consider seasons where offensive and defensive contributions are both very high .

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[blundluntman]

Without thinking too hard, Clarke 75, Clarke 76, Fedorov 94, Sakic 01 and Matthews 24 are probably my top 5. I’m gonna go Fedorov 94 here but Clarke 76 has a very good argument as well

 

[Sheppy]

2019 Bergeron was pacing at 100 points. Sucks that he only ended up playing 65 games.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Hfboards will almost certainly go Fedorov but I think there are a half dozen good candidates and by the numbers it’s likely Clarke.

 

[Xspyrit]

Just my 2 cents but I would replace "- Number 1" by "#1" in the title of these polls

 

[Hockey Outsider]

My vote is for Bobby Clarke in 1976. He scored 119 points (good for 2nd in the league), while being on the ice for just 23 ES goals against. No forward in NHL history has ever generated that much offense, while being on the ice for so few ES goals against.

At even strength, the Flyers had an 83% GF% ratio when Clarke was on the ice. (They were still very good when he wasn't on the ice, at about 60%, but obviously they did much better when he was playing).

I know that a lot of people will vote for Fedorov's 1994 season. It was a great year, and should be somewhere in the top five. But Fedorov's results weren't nearly as strong (approximately 63% GF% when he was on the ice vs 54% when he wasn't). The NHL was a stronger league in 1994, but I don't think that it explains such a large gap.

(A complete list of forwards in NHL history who have scored 100+ points while being on the ice for no more than 30 ES goals against - Bobby Clarke in 1975; Bobby Clarke in 1976; and Bobby Clarke's linemate, Bill Barber, in 1976).

 

[BraveCanadian]

I know that a lot of people will vote for Fedorov's 1994 season. It was a great year, and should be somewhere in the top five. But Fedorov's results weren't nearly as strong (approximately 63% GF% when he was on the ice vs 54% when he wasn't). The NHL was a stronger league in 1994, but I don't think that it explains such a large gap.

Yeah in no order I think my top five would be Clarke, Trottier, Gilmour, Fedorov annnd.. Kurri?

It’s tough once you get to 5-6. Zetterberg is close for me.

I find Sakic/Forsberg/Datsyuk/Crosby overrated defensively. Matthews 3rd this year was out of left field for me, although he’s good.

Toews, Kopitar, Bergeron are not good enough offensively here. Barkov possibly too. Francis was great two ways but his season here was boosted a bit by Jagr.

That’s my Ted talk.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

My vote is for Bobby Clarke in 1976. He scored 119 points (good for 2nd in the league), while being on the ice for just 23 ES goals against. No forward in NHL history has ever generated that much offense, while being on the ice for so few ES goals against.

At even strength, the Flyers had an 83% GF% ratio when Clarke was on the ice. (They were still very good when he wasn't on the ice, at about 60%, but obviously they did much better when he was playing).

I know that a lot of people will vote for Fedorov's 1994 season. It was a great year, and should be somewhere in the top five. But Fedorov's results weren't nearly as strong (approximately 63% GF% when he was on the ice vs 54% when he wasn't). The NHL was a stronger league in 1994, but I don't think that it explains such a large gap.

(A complete list of forwards in NHL history who have scored 100+ points while being on the ice for no more than 30 ES goals against - Bobby Clarke in 1975; Bobby Clarke in 1976; and Bobby Clarke's linemate, Bill Barber, in 1976).

That's obscene

 

[Albatros]

Fedorov 1994, the league was so much better than in the mid-1970s.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Some data to consider:

Season	Team	Player	GF with%	GF without%	Increase
1975​	PHI	CLARKE, BOBBY	86.5%​	58.5%​	28.0%​
1976​	PHI	CLARKE, BOBBY	83.3%​	60.1%​	23.2%​
1995​	PIT	FRANCIS, RON	70.8%​	48.1%​	22.6%​
2003​	COL	FORSBERG, PETER	71.1%​	49.2%​	22.0%​
1984​	NYI	TROTTIER, BRYAN	71.7%​	51.8%​	19.9%​
1993​	TOR	GILMOUR, DOUG	64.3%​	45.9%​	18.4%​
2008​	DET	DATSYUK, PAVEL	69.1%​	52.5%​	16.5%​
2001​	COL	SAKIC, JOE	69.0%​	52.6%​	16.4%​
1985​	EDM	KURRI, JARI	68.4%​	52.0%​	16.4%​
1979​	NYI	TROTTIER, BRYAN	73.7%​	57.5%​	16.2%​
2009​	DET	DATSYUK, PAVEL	62.9%​	49.1%​	13.8%​
1996​	DET	FEDOROV, SERGEI	70.9%​	57.9%​	13.0%​
2011​	CHI	TOEWS, JONATHAN	60.4%​	48.5%​	11.9%​
2019​	BOS	BERGERON, PATRICE	63.1%​	52.3%​	10.8%​
1973​	PHI	CLARKE, BOBBY	60.4%​	49.7%​	10.7%​
1994​	TOR	GILMOUR, DOUG	58.9%​	49.3%​	9.6%​
1994​	DET	FEDOROV, SERGEI	62.7%​	53.4%​	9.3%​
2019​	PIT	CROSBY, SIDNEY	58.6%​	49.4%​	9.1%​
2008​	DET	ZETTERBERG, HENRIK	64.8%​	55.8%​	8.9%​
2014​	BOS	BERGERON, PATRICE	67.6%​	59.3%​	8.2%​
2018​	LAK	KOPITAR, ANZE	57.1%​	51.0%​	6.0%​
1983​	EDM	KURRI, JARI	62.6%​	57.2%​	5.4%​
2009​	DET	ZETTERBERG, HENRIK	55.7%​	53.2%​	2.5%​
1986​	EDM	KURRI, JARI	60.0%​	59.3%​	0.7%​
1984​	EDM	KURRI, JARI	59.8%​	59.2%​	0.6%​

This table shows the even-strength GF% when each player was on the ice, compared to the team's even-strength GF% when the player is off the ice. The table is sorted based on which players had the largest improvements. The source data was taken from @overpass's enormous spreadsheet.

This isn't my personal list of the greatest 25 two-way seasons of all-time. These are just the seasons listed in the OP. Unfortunately I don't have data (in this format) beyond 2020, so Barkov and Matthews are excluded.

This is only looking at ES data, but penalty killing should be considered as well. For example, Forsberg was great at ES in 2003, but he only played 12 seconds per game on the penalty kill, so it shouldn't be considered one of the greatest two-way seasons of all-time.

Last point - single season data like this can be volatile. For example, William Karlsson's 2018 campaign looks extremely strong (99th percentile all-time). We need to use common sense in figuring out what's sustainable vs good luck.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Fedorov 1994 AINEC

 

[Coffees]

Replace #1 with number 1

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

i'm glad to see Kopitar included, his 2018 was mammoth and it's a shame he didn't get mvp. He willed that team to the playoffs.

35 goals, 92 points. 31 more points than his next closest teammate, his linemate permanently stapled to him at all times. Next closest forward after that was 45 points behind.
All that offense despite the hardest competition and the hardest zone starts amongst all regular Kings forwards except Trevor Lewis (45% ozone starts)
#1 option on the #1 defensive team in the league
#1 PKer on #1 PK in league, 13th OA in forward TOI SH.
Most time on ice overall and per game than any forward in league.
Only 51st OA in PP TOI.

All on a wild card team with no depth, he was the only real dangerous option and was playing Mr. Everything at an MVP level.

Not saying it's the best amongst the above, but it definitely deserved inclusion in discussion

 

[Hockey Outsider]

i'm glad to see Kopitar included, his 2018 was mammoth and it's a shame he didn't get mvp. He willed that team to the playoffs.

35 goals, 92 points. 31 more points than his next closest teammate, his linemate permanently stapled to him at all times. Next closest forward after that was 45 points behind.
All that offense despite the hardest competition and the hardest zone starts amongst all regular Kings forwards except Trevor Lewis (45% ozone starts)
#1 option on the #1 defensive team in the league
#1 PKer on #1 PK in league, 13th OA in forward TOI SH.
Most time on ice overall and per game than any forward in league.
Only 51st OA in PP TOI.

All on a wild card team with no depth, he was the only real dangerous option and was playing Mr. Everything at an MVP level.

Not saying it's the best amongst the above, but it definitely deserved inclusion in discussion

See this post - a statistical argument can be made that Kopitar is one of the greatest two-forwards in NHL history. (By this metric, he looks better than several contemporaries, including Bergeron, Toews and Hossa).

 

[DitchMarner]

It's fascinating that Fedorov 1994 has a commanding lead here but is losing a head-to-head poll against Clarke's 1976 season in @blundluntman's latest Hart winners tournament.

Voting will conclude tonight.

 

[BraveCanadian]

See this post - a statistical argument can be made that Kopitar is one of the greatest two-forwards in NHL history. (By this metric, he looks better than several contemporaries, including Bergeron, Toews and Hossa).

Been on the Kopitar bandwagon a long time in the ATD. Great player.

It's fascinating that Fedorov 1994 has a commanding lead here but is losing a head-to-head poll against Clarke's 1976 season in @blundluntman's latest Hart winners tournament.

Voting will conclude tonight.

Fedorov’s 94 is one of hfboards darlings so what is surprising is him not running away with both. Clarke is being split here too.

 

[Johnny Tomala]

Clarke 1975.

 

[JackSlater]

The results look reasonable to me. Clarke splits his votes between his two monstrous seasons and the total is about the same as Fedorov's 1994. For me Clarke and Fedorov are the only two valid contenders here.

 

[BraveCanadian]

For me Clarke and Fedorov are the only two valid contenders here.

You must know something that I don’t.

 

[JackSlater]

You must know something that I don’t.

Only two players who were legitimately the best defensive forward in the NHL and also reasonably close (top three or so) to the league scoring lead.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Only two players who were legitimately the best defensive forward in the NHL and also reasonably close (top three or so) to the league scoring lead.

Eh, I think that overlooks how Selke voting has shifted around over time. Not to mention even when looking just at post expansion like in this thread, the award didn't even exist the first decade.

Gilmour essentially did what Fedorov did in 1994 for two years (on worse teams) but had the misfortune of peaking the year before a whole bunch of guys were hurt, missing, or declining.

Like I said above I think there are several contenders.

 

[JackSlater]

Eh, I think that overlooks how Selke voting has shifted around over time. Not to mention even when looking just at post expansion like in this thread, the award didn't even exist the first decade.

Gilmour essentially did what Fedorov did in 1994 for two years (on worse teams) but had the misfortune of peaking the year before a whole bunch of guys were hurt, missing, or declining.

Like I said above I think there are several contenders.

I'm not talking about Selke voting, otherwise I would have included Datsyuk. Clarke and Fedorov are the only two I would consider the best defensive forward in the league and who managed to reach offensive heights like being reasonably close to the scoring lead at the same time. Gilmour's offence was good enough but he wasn't on that level defensively. Most of the listed players aren't at the appropriate level defensively. Bergeron is but his offence isn't as good.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I'm not talking about Selke voting, otherwise I would have included Datsyuk. Clarke and Fedorov are the only two I would consider the best defensive forward in the league and who managed to reach offensive heights like being reasonably close to the scoring lead at the same time. Gilmour's offence was good enough but he wasn't on that level defensively. Most of the listed players aren't at the appropriate level defensively. Bergeron is but his offence isn't as good.

I don't know how you are deciding that besides preference. As contemporaries they are easy to compare. Fedorov was outstanding - I had Fedorov on my list above too after all - and he did have a skating and size advantage (that he didn't really use much) over Gilmour, but I think there are some team effects to keep in mind here too.

In any case, Gilmour was originally a defensive specialist when he came up with StL. NHL coaches voted Gilmour as the best defensive forward in 93 (with Fedorov having no votes), and he was second to only Fedorov in 94. Gilmour was voted the hardest working player in the league in both years. Both were recognized for their penalty killing over the two years with Fedorov getting the advantage 7-6.

So according to NHL coaches (and Selke voting for what it is worth) they are at least close defensively to observers at the time.

If you think placing highly both in offense and defense is important to choosing here - every player ahead of Gilmour in scoring in 1993 was either sitting out (Mario) or hurt for significant time in 1994 - save Adam Oates who Gilmour was neck and neck with 1994. Then you add in a largely cooked Wayne Gretzky in their place. In my mind Fedorov having a high scoring finish is really situational in comparison to Gilmour's 1993. Fedorov would not have ranked as highly one year previous.

And that is before you get into Trottier who I think has a very legit case and to a lesser degree (imo) Kurri / Zetterberg. Team effects and situational context do make it tough to pick between all these seasons though.

 

[JackSlater]

I don't know how you are deciding that besides preference. As contemporaries they are easy to compare. Fedorov was outstanding - I had Fedorov on my list above too after all - and he did have a skating and size advantage (that he didn't really use much) over Gilmour, but I think there are some team effects to keep in mind here too.

In any case, Gilmour was originally a defensive specialist when he came up with StL. NHL coaches voted Gilmour as the best defensive forward in 93 (with Fedorov having no votes), and he was second to only Fedorov in 94. Gilmour was voted the hardest working player in the league in both years. Both were recognized for their penalty killing over the two years with Fedorov getting the advantage 7-6.

So according to NHL coaches (and Selke voting for what it is worth) they are at least close defensively to observers at the time.

If you think placing highly both in offense and defense is important to choosing here - every player ahead of Gilmour in scoring in 1993 was either sitting out (Mario) or hurt for significant time in 1994 - save Adam Oates who Gilmour was neck and neck with 1994. Then you add in a largely cooked Wayne Gretzky in their place. In my mind Fedorov having a high scoring finish is really situational in comparison to Gilmour's 1993. Fedorov would not have ranked as highly one year previous.

And that is before you get into Trottier who I think has a very legit case and to a lesser degree (imo) Kurri / Zetterberg. Team effects and situational context do make it tough to pick between all these seasons though.

Gilmour is close enough to Fedorov 94 offensively or Clarke around his peak, being specifically second in scoring like Fedorov was in 1994 does come down to things like competition, sure. Gilmour isn't with them because his defence wasn't as good. Trottier, Kurri, and Zetterberg also weren't as good defensively even if Trottier has possibly better offence.

So yeah, two legitimate choices. Obviously other people are going to vote for others sometimes.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Gilmour is close enough to Fedorov 94 offensively or Clarke around his peak, being specifically second in scoring like Fedorov was in 1994 does come down to things like competition, sure. Gilmour isn't with them because his defence wasn't as good. Trottier, Kurri, and Zetterberg also weren't as good defensively even if Trottier has possibly better offence.

So yeah, two legitimate choices. Obviously other people are going to vote for others sometimes.

Based on?