Best Two Way Player To Never Win The Selke trophy?

[Felidae]

I think it only makes sense to talk about the players that played when the Selke trophy actually existed.

the 2 obvious answer seem to be Jari Kurri and Bryan Trottier. (Though feel free to discuss other players) Both finished 2nd in Selke voting, Trottier lost to Doug Jarvis and Kurri lost to a 33 year old Clarke.

Interestingly enough, Kurri actually has the better Selke record between the two. Was a finalist twice, and was fairly close to being one twice more

For all the praise I hear about Trottier's 2 way play on here, I'm surprised to find out he was only ever a finalist once, his next best finish was 8th place.

It's not like the selke trophy was created after some of his best seasons either.. in fact, it was created the very year he emerged as an elite player in the league.

I'm guessing most people here think Trottier was the superior two way player (given the wide placement gap in the all time list) so what's the explanation for his lacklustre Selke record relative to reputation?

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[MadLuke]

Of the selke era, Messier, Forsberg are 2 that come to mind, Forsberg had 2-4 (not playing on the pk anymore in 2003 excluded him of being a finalist I imagine) selke finish, Messier 8-9

2000-2002 era Sakic was not bad either and Lindros at his best, depending of how someone score-perceive 2 way forward, you can get good offensively enough that you never shadow opposing line really (always the one the opposite coach try to match) of your career and that can exclude you.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I think it only makes sense to talk about the players that played when the Selke trophy actually existed.

the 2 obvious answer seem to be Jari Kurri and Bryan Trottier. (Though feel free to discuss other players) Both finished 2nd in Selke voting, Trottier lost to Doug Jarvis and Kurri lost to a 33 year old Clarke.

Interestingly enough, Kurri actually has the better Selke record between the two. Was a finalist twice, and was fairly close to being one twice more

For all the praise I hear about Trottier's 2 way play on here, I'm surprised to find out he was only ever a finalist once, his next best finish was 8th place.

It's not like the selke trophy was created after some of his best seasons either.. in fact, it was created the very year he emerged as an elite player in the league.

I'm guessing most people here think Trottier was the superior two way player (given the wide placement gap in the all time list) so what's the explanation for his lacklustre Selke record relative to reputation?

Although there are a few exceptions, during the 1980's, the voters typically selected purely defensive forwards (rather than true two-way players - like we saw for much of the 1990's, and after the 2005 lockout as well). It's not difficult to imagine Kurri and Trottier as perennial Selke finalists with today's approach to voting.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Some times, the Selke actually goes to defensive forwards. So some two way players miss out even if they are strong defensively.

Trottier and Kurri are two obvious ones. Zetterberg, Marner, Elias, and some others are probably up there. Guys like Sakic, Forsberg, Modano etc. who I personally think are a bit overstated defensively probably could have competed more today where it is often the highest scoring + solid defensive forward award.

 

[norrisnick]

Zetterberg. 2008 especially.

 

[gretzkyoilers]

Matthews
Crosby

 

[VanIslander]

Esa Tikkanen.

Several times Selke finalist.

Within the top-10 all-time playoff scoring at his position, within the top-50 all-time playoff scoring among all players.

The Grate One.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Matthews
Crosby

Ehhhh

 

[gretzkyoilers]

Ehhhh

I'm joking

 

[carjackmalone]

John Tonelli

 

[EpochLink]

Jari Kurri should’ve won at least 2 Selke’s

 

[MXD]

It's a loaded question.

My first instincts were Esa Tikkanen, who is probably the best defensive player who wasn't otherwise a total one-way (defense way) forward.

But Bryan Trottier :
- Is definitely a better player than Esa Tikkanen
- Is undoubtedly a 2-way Forward (at least in his prime)
- His "defense" was at some point good enough so that him winning the Selke wouldn't have felt wrong, and he in fact came close
- Is also a better player than the other credible suggestions put forward in this thread (Kurri and Forsberg comes to mind; Sidney Crosby is a better player than Bryan Trottier, but he wasn't at any point a credible Selke winner, or at least a winner who wouldn't have caused some raised eyebrows, and Bryan Trottier is a better player than Auston Matthews)

If Tikkanen is too "defensive" and Trottier somehow lacking in two-way recognition, then it's probably Peter Forsberg.

 

[Voight]

Sakic did have one more first place vote then Madden and the vote itself was pretty close. That year was a few things away from being one of the very best individual seasons in history - Sakic was a few Selke votes, 5 goals and three points from taking hom every available award.

 

[Felidae]

Of the best two way players who didn't win the selke (Kurri, Messier, Sakic, Forsberg, Trottier, etc) who actually had the best defensive ability?

But also I agree it's a bit of a loaded question, the best primarily defensive forward to never win the selke is an equally interesting question

 

[Gorskyontario]

I was always impressed with Steve Larmer at both ends.

 

[Gerulaitis]

Ron Hextall.

Scored twice by direct shots and prevented miriads of goals against his teams.

Proper two way.

 

[gretzkyoilers]

Although just a one-off in last year's playoffs, but on the Oilers players like Yanmark and even Connor Brown were fantastic on the PK and crucial in getting the Oilers to the finals. The also scored HUGE goals shorthanded.

Any players, either current of past that would fit this description? Often they fly under the radar because they are not PPG players and or 3rd liners.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Of the best two way players who didn't win the selke (Kurri, Messier, Sakic, Forsberg, Trottier, etc) who actually had the best defensive ability?

But also I agree it's a bit of a loaded question, the best primarily defensive forward to never win the selke is an equally interesting question

My personal opinion is that Trottier was the best of that bunch, partly because he added physicality in his toolbox, followed closely by Kurri and then the rest. I’ve always found Messier’s defense to be mixed up with physical intimidation, and Forsberg/Sakic good but not great defensively.

Messier’s skating sure worked on the PK though. Generating chances too. So maybe it’s just me.

 

[ESH]

Henrik Zetterberg is the easy choice for me

I’m seeing lots of Kurri and Tikkanen here. Who would people say was the better defensive player?

 

[Crosby2010]

First name that came to mind for me was Trottier. Definitely would benefit from modern voting standards. It really wasn't until Gilmour in 1993 that the award changed to great two-way forwards. Prior to that it never went to someone who scored 100 points. Troy Murray had 99 in 1986 and Clarke had 85 in 1983, but those were the exceptions. And I guess in a way the mid 1990s was the exception too. It only has gone to someone with 100+ points three times.

I just think since the award was started in the 1977-'78 season it took a while for the voters to sort of look at high scoring players and realize that these guys were just as good defensively as the lower scoring players. So I think that hurts Trottier's chances that he was a high scoring player then.

 

[Albatros]

I’m seeing lots of Kurri and Tikkanen here. Who would people say was the better defensive player?

Kurri was all about reliably doing the right things in all situations across the ice offense or defense, whereas Tikkanen was more about grit and intangibles. If you can only have one you always take Kurri just like you take Lidström over Stevens, but Tikkanen was the kind of role player that could turn good teams into something more.

 

[carjackmalone]

Brian sutter

 

[MadLuke]

I wonder if Gainey-Carbonneau teint our vision a bit here.

Clarke, Poulin, Murray, Graham, all had good offensive season prior or their winning year.

One year (1983) the top 2 were Clarke and Kurri, 2 elites offensive player, the following year after Jarvis won Trottier got a solid second place followed by Kurri-MIddleton all those player scored more than 100 pts.

It was not fully closed to them, Murray winning with a 99 pts season, maybe there was a subgroup of people not ready to vote for an player scoring 100pts (while all voter were open to give it to a Carbonneau) and you needed to be in a year where you did not split the vote with Kurri, Clarke, Goulet or someone else to have a shot.

 

[Staniowski]

First name that came to mind for me was Trottier. Definitely would benefit from modern voting standards. It really wasn't until Gilmour in 1993 that the award changed to great two-way forwards. Prior to that it never went to someone who scored 100 points. Troy Murray had 99 in 1986 and Clarke had 85 in 1983, but those were the exceptions. And I guess in a way the mid 1990s was the exception too. It only has gone to someone with 100+ points three times.

I just think since the award was started in the 1977-'78 season it took a while for the voters to sort of look at high scoring players and realize that these guys were just as good defensively as the lower scoring players. So I think that hurts Trottier's chances that he was a high scoring player then.

Actually, Selke voting didn't really change much....maybe a bit. It was the players that changed, that was the biggest factor. Through the 2nd half of the '80s and 1st half of the '90s, the biggest change in the NHL was coaches coaching defensive hockey, and this was most manifested in the forwards. So, the pool of good (and great) defensive forwards increased substantially, and that's why offensive stars started to get more Selke votes....i.e. they WERE actually better defensively.

A recent guy like Bergeron, for example, was a LOT better defensively than guys like Clarke, Trottier, Messier.

The defensively-deficient hockey of the '70s and '80s was such that you could very easily spot the good defensive players, like Gainey and Carbonneau, who was probably the smartest forward positionally in NHL history up to the that point. But he has company now.

Same with defenseman....guys like Savard, Langway, Lowe, Ramsey, etc. stood out like a sore thumb.

But the pool of good defensive forwards is a lot bigger now.