Best prime/peak: Leetch vs Karlsson vs MacInnis

[Run the Gauntlet]

Peak
Top 2 campaigns for each player.
Regular season + playoffs, i call it campaign it can be called anything.

MacInnis
1988-1989 Gp G A P +- sog
101 23 82 105 44 346
1990-1991 Gp G A P +- sog
85 30 78 108 37 330

Leetch
1991-1992 Gp G A P +- sog
93 26 91 117 20 312
1993-1994 Gp G A P +- sog
107 34 79 113 47 416

Karlsson
2014-2015 Gp G A P +- sog
88 22 48 70 5 309
2016-2017 Gp G A P +- sog
96 19 70 89 23 271

 

[wetcoast]

Peak
Top 2 campaigns for each player.
Regular season + playoffs, i call it campaign it can be called anything.

MacInnis
1988-1989 Gp G A P +- sog
101 23 82 105 44 346
1990-1991 Gp G A P +- sog
85 30 78 108 37 330

Leetch
1991-1992 Gp G A P +- sog
93 26 91 117 20 312
1993-1994 Gp G A P +- sog
107 34 79 113 47 416

Karlsson
2014-2015 Gp G A P +- sog
88 22 48 70 5 309
2016-2017 Gp G A P +- sog
96 19 70 89 23 271

 

[amnesiac]

Peak
Top 2 campaigns for each player.
Regular season + playoffs, i call it campaign it can be called anything.

MacInnis
1988-1989 Gp G A P +- sog
101 23 82 105 44 346
1990-1991 Gp G A P +- sog
85 30 78 108 37 330

Leetch
1991-1992 Gp G A P +- sog
93 26 91 117 20 312
1993-1994 Gp G A P +- sog
107 34 79 113 47 416

Karlsson
2014-2015 Gp G A P +- sog
88 22 48 70 5 309
2016-2017 Gp G A P +- sog
96 19 70 89 23 271

* League GPG AVG

1988-91 ~ 7.25 GPG
1991-94 ~ 6.75 GPG
2014-17 ~ 5.5 GPG

 

[JackSlater]

Karlsson for peak, MacInnis narrowly for prime. I like the comparison though.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Best peak: Karlsson

Best prime: I don't know. Maybe Leetch? Not sure about this one.

 

[Johnny Tomala]

Leetch

 

[Voight]

If it is best prime AND peak then it is Mac for me. His peak offensively was as a 100 pt Conn Smythe guy and he improved defensively to the point he won a Norris later based on it.

Leetch is very similar but never got as good defensively (imo).

Karlsson clearly last of the three.

Yea its a weird case just because he didn't win the Norris until he was 35, then came in 2nd again at 39, an age where most guys are retired or no longer elite.

Of course he got some Norris consideration the he was younger.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Peak Karlsson.

His 2017 carry job would've resulted in a Conn Smythe, but he didn't have Mark Messier or Doug Gilmour to help him win the Cup.

He was easily the consensus best defenceman in the NHL at his peak.

Even during their peaks, there was never a point in time where Leetch or MacInnis were considered the hands down best defenceman in the league.

As impressive offensively as Leetch and MacInnis were at their best, Karlsson was better.

 

[amnesiac]

Peak Karlsson.

His 2017 carry job would've resulted in a Conn Smythe, but he didn't have Mark Messier or Doug Gilmour to help him win the Cup.

He was easily the consensus best defenceman in the NHL at his peak.

Even during their peaks, there was never a point in time where Leetch or MacInnis were considered the hands down best defenceman in the league.

As impressive offensively as Leetch and MacInnis were at their best, Karlsson was better.

to be fair, if EK played in the late 80s and 90s, he may not have been considered the greatest Dman either.

MacInnis at his peak was a finalist 3 times for the Norris, lost 2 to Bourque and one to Chelios.... Was later runner up again in 03 and lost to Lidstrom.

Leetch also played at the same time as Bourque, Chelios, Coffey.

Peak Karlsson beat out the likes of : Doughty, Weber, Chara, and Subban for his first 2 Norrises. Quite a difference in competition.

 

[Albatros]

On the other hand Rob Blake won the Norris between MacInnis and Leetch, so it's not like the competition was unbeatable at that point.

 

[amnesiac]

On the other hand Rob Blake won the Norris between MacInnis and Leetch, so it's not like the competition was unbeatable at that point.

except by then (97-98) you had Pronger and Lidstrom (who finished 2nd and 3rd to Blake) emerging as the best on top of an older Bourque and Chelios. So not really.

Point was you had about 8 of the top 20 Dmen of all-time playing between the mid-80s and early 2000s (Bourque, Lidstrom, Chelios, Coffey, Pronger, MacInnis, Stevens, Leetch).

Karlsson's competition, although not bad at all, are mostly in the #40 or even #50+ range all-time other than maybe Chara.... Many would even argue Karlsson didnt deserve his 2nd Norris, as Doughty was the better all around Dman in 14-15 (DD even had 9 more 1st place votes than EK)

Thats said, Karlsson's 10 year prime still had him as a top 2 Dman about 5 times, not counting 22-23... MacInnis on the other hand wouldve had 2 more Norrises if not for Bourque, which put him at least on par with EK in terms of peak/prime.

The fact that Mac managed to win the Norris at age 35 beating out: Lidstrom, Bourque, and Pronger is amazing on its own, and then finished runnerup to Lidstrom at age 39. Really as consistent a career as they come. Only Bourque, Lidstrom, Stevens, Chelios, maybe Chara can compare amongst Dmen. Guys like Coffey and Leetch fizzled in their mid 30s, Pronger got injured, Doughty definitely past his prime now.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Leetch being the lowest voted here is laughable. Show me when Karlsson had a 30+ point playoff conn smythe run. Leetch prime and peak was insane.

Show me where Leetch led his team in regular season scoring and then dragged their sorry asses to game 7 of the conference finals by his absolute self

 

[Fataldogg]

Show me where Leetch led his team in regular season scoring and then dragged their sorry asses to game 7 of the conference finals by his absolute self

Yeah, he was too busy scoring 34 points in the playoffs and actually winning the Cup.

Getting close is nice, but its not actually better than doing.

 

[Machinehead]

Leetch's Conn Smythe is extremely underrated. For some reason, history remembers the '94 Rangers as being stacked. They really weren't. The team was ancient, and they traded all of their young players at the deadline, mostly for downgrades.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Leetch and MacInnis were great, but they were never as far ahead of the field as peak Karlsson.

Yeah, their field included the peaks of Bourque and Chelios

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Yeah, he was too busy scoring 34 points in the playoffs and actually winning the Cup.

Getting close is nice, but its not actually better than doing.

He also had Messier, Kovalev, Zubov, Richter, Larmer, and Graves in his peak year.

Karlsson had Mark Stone and...Hoffman I guess?

 

[amnesiac]

He also had Messier, Kovalev, Zubov, Richter, Larmer, and Graves in his peak year.

Karlsson had Mark Stone and...Hoffman I guess?

dont forget Kyle Turris!

 

[Pablo El Perro]

Yeah, their field included the peaks of Bourque and Chelios

Karlsson had strong competition as well, but bringing up Bourque doesn't really help anyone's case in this thread, as he was better for much longer than any of the others.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Karlsson's 2023 Norris win was one of the most undeserved awards in NHL history IMO. He was soooooo bad defensively. Like, generationally bad. As in, more goals poured in against his team with him on the ice than anyone else of the previous 2 decades.

It is just bizarre that this is anyone's idea of what a good defenseman looks like, let alone a great one.

If that's what the argument for Karlsson hinges on (it doesn't have to be), then yeah that's not going to work.

 

[Regal]

Karlsson's 2023 Norris win was one of the most undeserved awards in NHL history IMO. He was soooooo bad defensively. Like, generationally bad. As in, more goals poured in against his team with him on the ice than anyone else of the previous 2 decades.

It is just bizarre that this is anyone's idea of what a good defenseman looks like, let alone a great one.

If that's what the argument for Karlsson hinges on (it doesn't have to be), then yeah that's not going to work.

It was a weird season because I think they were so bad that he improved the team when he was ice as much or more than most other Norris winners could have (the team had a 50% GF% with him on the ice 5v5 and a 37% GF% with him off the ice 5v5), but I also don’t think his play that year could lend itself to improving a good team the same way.

 

[ijuka]

Leetch being the lowest voted here is laughable. Show me when Karlsson had a 30+ point playoff conn smythe run. Leetch prime and peak was insane.

23 games is pretty small as a sample. In the regular season, Leetch has nothing comparable to what Karlsson did on a team as bad as the Sharks, and Leetch had much stronger support, even if you want to meme about the Rangers being a disappointing team. They still always were a high budget, big name team.

 

[ijuka]

Karlsson's 2023 Norris win was one of the most undeserved awards in NHL history IMO. He was soooooo bad defensively. Like, generationally bad. As in, more goals poured in against his team with him on the ice than anyone else of the previous 2 decades.

Let's look at the 5on5 numbers.

Karlsson on the ice: 96 for, 96 against (GF 50.00%)

Karlsson off the ice: 72 for, 124 against (GF 36.73%)

To be clear, your takeaway is: "Karlsson was generationally bad defensively"?

He tilted the ice a massive amount, and you're doing some very selective evaluating if that's your genuine takeaway.

 

[wetcoast]

Peak Karlsson.

His 2017 carry job would've resulted in a Conn Smythe, but he didn't have Mark Messier or Doug Gilmour to help him win the Cup.

That's great, isolate a single post season whereas the other 2 guys had more seasons in the playoffs with much better performances than EK's 2nd 3rd best ones.

He was easily the consensus best defenceman in the NHL at his peak.

Also another false narrative not borne out in Norris voting at all.

1	Erik Karlsson	24	OTT	D	964	61.40	44	42	33	19	8	21	45	66	7	7.2	4.7	0.0	11.9
2	Drew Doughty	25	LAK	D	889	56.62	53	30	20	13	10	7	39	46	3	3.0	5.6	0.0	8.6
3	P.K. Subban	25	MTL	D	801	51.02	24	36	38	37	8	15	45	60	21	5.8	6.6	0.0	12.4
4	Shea Weber	29	NSH	D	614	39.11	26	19	28	20	21	15	30	45	15	4.2	5.4	0.0	9.6
5	Roman Josi	24	NSH	D	222	14.14	3	9	11	17	23	15	40	55	15	5.3	5.6	0.0	10.8
6	Mark Giordano	31	CGY	D	177	11.27	1	6	11	15	25	11	37	48	13	4.6	4.4	0.0	9.0
7	Duncan Keith	31	CHI	D	134	8.54	1	7	4	12	19	10	35	45	12	3.6	5.7	0.0	9.3
8	Kris Letang	27	PIT	D	80	5.10	1	2	6	6	8	11	43	54	12	5.1	5.0	0.0	10.1
9	Ryan Suter	30	MIN	D	43	2.74	2	0	0	4	11	2	36	38	7	1.8	5.6	0.0	7.4
10	John Carlson	25	WSH	D	31	1.97	0	1	1	6	1	12	43	55	11	5.1	4.8	0.0	10.0
11	Ryan McDonagh	25	NYR	D	27	1.72	0	3	0	2	0	8	25	33	23	2.7	4.7	0.0	7.3
12	Dustin Byfuglien	29	WPG	D	21	1.34	1	0	1	1	3	18	27	45	5	5.3	3.5	0.0	8.8
13	Anton Strålman	28	TBL	D	19	1.21	0	1	1	1	4	9	30	39	22	3.2	4.9	0.0	8.0
14	Niklas Kronwall	34	DET	D	10	0.64	1	0	0	0	0	9	35	44	-4	3.6	3.6	0.0	7

Look at the first place votes doughty has 53 and EK has 44 and this is the year he won the Norris in his peak.

That's in contrast to your comment on easily the best consensus defenseman in the NHL during his peak.

Even during their peaks, there was never a point in time where Leetch or MacInnis were considered the hands down best defenceman in the league.

As impressive offensively as Leetch and MacInnis were at their best, Karlsson was better.

Maybe this is so but Leetch definitely was better when combining offensive and defensive play during his peak before injuries took over.

EK65 is and always has been a high event player, lots of goals for both teams when on the ice.

Also twice now when he has gone to better situations some of his diehard fan base was spouting off how much better he would be and it's still o-2 in those situations.

 

[Voight]

Peak Karlsson.

His 2017 carry job would've resulted in a Conn Smythe, but he didn't have Mark Messier or Doug Gilmour to help him win the Cup.

He was easily the consensus best defenceman in the NHL at his peak.

Even during their peaks, there was never a point in time where Leetch or MacInnis were considered the hands down best defenceman in the league.

As impressive offensively as Leetch and MacInnis were at their best, Karlsson was better.

Weird take considering Leetch lead the 94 Rangers in playoff scoring and won the Smythe & MacInnis lead the 89 Flames in playoff scoring (9 more points than Gilmour)

Consensus best defensemen? Nope, there was and still is an argument for Doughty. Weber as well in the early part of Karlssons career.

23 games is pretty small as a sample. In the regular season, Leetch has nothing comparable to what Karlsson did on a team as bad as the Sharks, and Leetch had much stronger support, even if you want to meme about the Rangers being a disappointing team. They still always were a high budget, big name team.

What exactly did he do? Forego any and all defensive responsibility so he could pile up points?

 

[The Shadow]

A MacINNIS story for you guys. When he played on the rangers (OHL) during the summer he stayed at my house. He and my dad would do arm curls with this ez curl bar. And then eventually some guy came to my house many years later to buy it. His name was Fitz Vanderpool. So it was passed from one great athlete to another.

When Al was playing in the minors he was crying on the phone to my mother who had become like a mom to him away from home. He was worried he wouldn’t make it and he saw that many guys were just all about drinking and partying down there and he didn’t want to be part of that. She reassured him many times he will be ok and will make it.

Also his stick pattern had a unique wedge to it. It wasn’t a curve but more like a golf club wedge.