Best players to just not get the shot in the NHL

[Albatros]

There were so many defenders in the 1990s in particular who should have been NHL players but didn’t make it because teams insisted on carrying 6’5 slugs that could fight.

Even in the 2000s someone like Petteri Nummelin, was an elite offensive defenseman and QB in Europe as well as internationally but was forced to play wing during his brief stint in Columbus and that then didn't really work for either side (though still leads the NHL all time in shootout scoring with 80 %, Zegras is second with only 61 %).

 

[Zine]

not saying no one has ever had their family threatened or harmed for leaving, but it should be acknowledged that the mortality rate in general in Russia for adult men is shockingly high. Just given the rates of alcoholism endemic to that country (and attendant health issues), and the much lower safety standards for vehicles and roads, the law of averages suggests there will be many more premature deaths within a given population in the former Soviet Republixs than compared to a similar sample drawn from Western countries like US, Canada, and Sweden.

Among the deaths which can legitimately be considered ‘suspicious’ my guess is that they can be more plausibly attributed to persons with criminal/economic motives, than to state-sponsored repression.

Of course, if a person’s desperate life circumstances were the result of their losing their job/being blackballed after a family member’s defection, then it would not be controversial IMO to acknowledge that government persecution/retaliation played a role in their subsequent early death.

But to say straight up that ppl have been killed for defecting, or for their family member’s defection, to play hockey in NA — while I’m not saying it never happened, I would be careful about alleging that without specific examples in mind, otherwise you run the risk of undermining the credibility of legitimate criticisms

Hmm----maybe the reason they choose the motherland isn't as grey as all that.

My initial post was a tounge in cheek quip but in the big picture, my suspicion is that yes many high profile people were unharmed and others had unfortunate car "accidents", disappearances and medical "problems". Then there is the guy who "fell" off a train. There are many "suicides" and unsolved mysterious deaths. Not all hockey--other athletes too


After careful scrutiny---it's a really tough call, but I'll go Patrick Henry here and opt in for liberty

Also keep in mind this is the 1990s.... a time the entire country was in chaos. Hockey players weren't immune from the madness.
Suspicious deaths were almost always criminal related, or mishaps from alcohol abuse.... especially considering a lot of players lacked basic life skills outside of hockey.

But AFAIK, the only "defector" whose family was actually threatened by the gov was Mogilny. But of course nothing came of it.

 

[Zine]

Timo Jutila maybe.

 

[jbeck5]

In terms of production and not ability,

Alexandre Giroux.

Look at this guys numbers in the AHL, but never got more than a few NHL games here and there.

AHL 08-09 ( 69-60-37-97 )
AHL 09-10 ( 69-50-53-103 )

The man got 110 goals in 138 games lol. Or 200 points in those 138 games.

That's got to be one of the best producing AHL peaks in recent memory.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Alex Giroux must have been recalled two dozen times in his career in multiple organizations...he got a ton of opportunity. He wasn't good enough.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Not really what the topic is about, but I was always bummed that Theo Fleury didn’t get another season after scoring like 3 goals in 3 preseason games after 3 years off or whatever. Like- that’s as good as he can do, he’s all offense anyways, Calgary sucked anyways- why invite him to camp just to cut him?

 

[Albatros]

Alex Giroux must have been recalled two dozen times in his career in multiple organizations...he got a ton of opportunity. He wasn't good enough.

Too glacial, the Caps already had Mike Knuble that could fill the role better. In terms of production I think Giroux could have scored the same 40-50 points in the NHL if playing with Bäckström and Ovechkin.

 

[namttebih]

I know that this probably isn't in the true spirit of the thread, but I always had a stupid, glimmering hope for Carter Ashton. He did get a few call ups and spent a few years in the A. I always thought that he was played too far down in the lineup to succeed - In the A obviously.

I was pleasantly surprised to see that he carved out a career between the KHL and Sweden. His stat line probably proves how wrong I was all along.

 

[joestevens29]

In terms of production and not ability,

Alexandre Giroux.

Look at this guys numbers in the AHL, but never got more than a few NHL games here and there.

AHL 08-09 ( 69-60-37-97 )
AHL 09-10 ( 69-50-53-103 )

The man got 110 goals in 138 games lol. Or 200 points in those 138 games.

That's got to be one of the best producing AHL peaks in recent memory.

The oilers were desperate for offense and he couldn’t cut it. Guy couldn’t skate

 

[jbeck5]

The oilers were desperate for offense and he couldn’t cut it. Guy couldn’t skate

Yup. Like Corey Locke but with size, and better production at the AHL level.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

Fucale was an AHL backup that never found enough consistency to become more. Also in the NHL couldn't stop anything once his streak came to an end, allowed 4 weak goals in less than 10 minutes and that was that.

Some interesting symmetry here

 

[JuJu Mobb]

I know nothing about the player so maybe someone here could tell me why Corey Locke never really got much of an opportunity in the NHL. His stats in the OHL and AHL were terrific.

Size was an issue and his skating wasn't good enough for a small player like him.

 

[HarrySPlinkett]

Hot take: nobody who’s actually good enough to play in the NHL has ever not made it.

I’m not talking about some five foot six skill player like a Matthew Phillips who’s got talent but obvious physical limitations.

I’m talking about a player with the ability to take a regular shift in the NHL, who’s reliable defensively, and can finish around the net/be physical/not have the play die every time he touches the puck.

Maybe back when there were six teams sure - but in the post-expansion era?

Not happening. If you can play, you can play.

 

[I am Bettman]

Hot take: nobody who’s actually good enough to play in the NHL has ever not made it.

I’m not talking about some five foot six skill player like a Matthew Phillips who’s got talent but obvious physical limitations.

I’m talking about a player with the ability to take a regular shift in the NHL, who’s reliable defensively, and can finish around the net/be physical/not have the play die every time he touches the puck.

Maybe back when there were six teams sure - but in the post-expansion era?

Not happening. If you can play, you can play.

How does Marty St Louis fit into this though? Hall of fame level player and barely got a shot, so isn’t it reasonable to assume that lower level players than him weren’t able to get an opportunity despite being good enough?

 

[HarrySPlinkett]

How does Marty St Louis fit into this though? Hall of fame level player and barely got a shot, so isn’t it reasonable to assume that lower level players than him weren’t able to get an opportunity despite being good enough?

Marty St Louis got a shot and made the most of it.

He actually got two.

He deserved to be there, so he was there.

He proves my point.

 

[I am Bettman]

Marty St Louis got a shot and made the most of it.

He actually got two.

He deserved to be there, so he was there.

He proves my point.

Yes, but he was a hall of fame player which means that it is reasonable to conclude that he received a bigger chance than a player who is a bottom six level player but still good enough for the nhl. So if a hall of fame level player only got 2 small shots, doesn’t it make sense logically that there are bottom six level players who received no chances?

 

[Albatros]

Pavel Patera was good enough to lead the gold medalists in scoring at best-on-best Olympics, but not good enough to make the NHL, okay.

 

[Michael Farkas]

How does Marty St Louis fit into this though? Hall of fame level player and barely got a shot, so isn’t it reasonable to assume that lower level players than him weren’t able to get an opportunity despite being good enough?

What does "barely got a shot" mean...?

 

[I am Bettman]

What does "barely got a shot" mean...?

Meant that he nearly didn’t have an NHL career considering he was undrafted and released by Calgary. I suppose he got a good shot considering the games he played for Calgary, but my point was that if a HOF level player can go undrafted and have an nhl team think he isn’t worth a contract then it’s reasonable to assume lower level players (but still nhl level) could possibly slip through the cracks.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I actually think these cases...St. Louis, Belfour, Brian Rafalski (all NCAA prospects, where there are different rules for drafting and bringing into an organization, etc.) it speaks very loudly to the preceding point that "if you should be here, you'll get at least get a long look"

Exceptions being politics and players having a preference not to...like Morozov and Chistov could have played in the NHL, they chose not to.

But even St. Louis playing at Vermont - not exactly an NHL factory - he got a look as soon as he was eligible to get one. Then he took term in the IHL (which was a mildly common move for younger players, players were drafted out of that league...even top 10 picks). His IHL deal had an NHL release clause, that was promptly utilized.

Not that I don't get your point, I just think that looks too strongly at binary results and too little at process. The process worked pretty damn well, relatively speaking.

 

[markymarc1215]

In terms of production and not ability,

Alexandre Giroux.

Look at this guys numbers in the AHL, but never got more than a few NHL games here and there.

AHL 08-09 ( 69-60-37-97 )
AHL 09-10 ( 69-50-53-103 )

The man got 110 goals in 138 games lol. Or 200 points in those 138 games.

That's got to be one of the best producing AHL peaks in recent memory.

Think he got a few games in with the 06-07 Caps

 

[adsfan]

Tretiak was offered a contract by the Canadiens (as was Fetisov). I don't believe they knew about the offers until some time later.

The soviets regime was not going to let them go.

This reminds me of Don Westbrooke. He played for the Dayton Gems of the IHL and scored 110 points or more in three consecutive seasons. He moved up to the AHL and didn't do much. Then he went to the WHL's Seattle Totems and scored 23 to 32 goals in each of 3 seasons 1971-74. Seattle played the Soviet team in an exhibition game. Westbrooke scored a hat trick against Tretiak, who was considered to be the best goalie in the world.

He never played a game in the NHL despite being 6' and 175 lbs, which was average size in the NHL at the time.. He started out as a Dman and was converted to RW in Dayton, where he also played D on the power play. He played on FIVE Turner Cup winning teams in the IHL.

 

[markymarc1215]

Peter Lindmark, Sweden

 

[Michael Farkas]

Peter Lindmark, Sweden

Wouldn't have looked too out of place in the mid 80's. Had a good head for the game. But there wasn't any interest. He was eligible to be drafted his entire career I believe and wasn't. He even said that if there was an opportunity in North America he would probably take it (this was after the '84 season).

I don't think we (the NHL) are missing much here, but I do think he probably could have been a decent goaltender in the NHL.

 

[Albatros]

Wouldn't have looked too out of place in the mid 80's. Had a good head for the game. But there wasn't any interest. He was eligible to be drafted his entire career I believe and wasn't. He even said that if there was an opportunity in North America he would probably take it (this was after the '84 season).

I don't think we (the NHL) are missing much here, but I do think he probably could have been a decent goaltender in the NHL.

In 1988 Washington offered him an NHL contract and a Swedish second league team a few beers. He took the beers and went to Malmö. Lindmark had no interest in going to North America (or probably even Stockholm).