Best player in the world: 2001

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Best player in the world: 2001

  • Jagr

    Votes: 28 18.7%
  • Sakic

    Votes: 39 26.0%
  • Elias

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • Bure

    Votes: 3 2.0%
  • Forsberg

    Votes: 9 6.0%
  • Lidstrom

    Votes: 8 5.3%
  • Bourque

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • Hasek

    Votes: 7 4.7%
  • Roy

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Brodeur

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • Cechmanek

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • Lemieux

    Votes: 49 32.7%

  • Total voters
    150
  • Poll closed .

TheMoreYouKnow

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So what is this considering - calendar year 2001, 2001/02 season and 2000/01 season, only 2001/02 season, only 2000/2001 season? A specific point in time - August 1st 2001? January 1st 2001?

Seems like it's not a good question without parameters properly determined.
 

FrankSidebottom

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Mar 16, 2021
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So what is this considering - calendar year 2001, 2001/02 season and 2000/01 season, only 2001/02 season, only 2000/2001 season? A specific point in time - August 1st 2001? January 1st 2001?

Seems like it's not a good question without parameters properly determined.
Every poll is about a season that ends in this year, so it’s 2000-2001.
 

norrisnick

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Cause and effect makes Lemieux the more valuable player that season. It’s that simple.
And Mario not playing didn't cause the malaise in the first place?

Arbitrarily assigning causes can go any number of different ways...
 

Toby91ca

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And Mario not playing didn't cause the malaise in the first place?

Arbitrarily assigning causes can go any number of different ways...
Also, let's make up stories that are no less provable than others....such as Jagr waking up one morning and deciding he needs to put this team on his back and step one is going to Mario's house, convincing him to play.....and Mario was terrible in practice so Jagr spent more time with him everyday giving him pointers and pushing him to improve and got Mario to where he needed to be, etc, etc.

Points, 1) he missed half the year, 2) the half he was able to play, he got outproduced by Jagr.
 
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TheMoreYouKnow

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Every poll is about a season that ends in this year, so it’s 2000-2001.
So you're essentially asking who was the best player in the NHL over the course of that season? I think it's important to narrow this down because the actual wording "best player in the world in 2001" allows for a very different answer that completely disregards elements like number of games played. I think it'd be very fair to say Joe Sakic was the best player of the 2000/01 season, but you could also say Mario Lemieux was still the best player in the world in 2001. Those aren't contradictory statements.
 

Toby91ca

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Oct 17, 2022
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So you're essentially asking who was the best player in the NHL over the course of that season? I think it's important to narrow this down because the actual wording "best player in the world in 2001" allows for a very different answer that completely disregards elements like number of games played. I think it'd be very fair to say Joe Sakic was the best player of the 2000/01 season, but you could also say Mario Lemieux was still the best player in the world in 2001. Those aren't contradictory statements.
I don't disagree....Mario isn't a stupid answer, I just think there were better choices.
 

FrankSidebottom

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Mar 16, 2021
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So you're essentially asking who was the best player in the NHL over the course of that season? I think it's important to narrow this down because the actual wording "best player in the world in 2001" allows for a very different answer that completely disregards elements like number of games played. I think it'd be very fair to say Joe Sakic was the best player of the 2000/01 season, but you could also say Mario Lemieux was still the best player in the world in 2001. Those aren't contradictory statements.
Yes, that’s why I’m avoiding too narrow criteria here. I think it comes as something pretty personal on what you value more - a specific season, weighted average of 2/3 seasons, pure talent, whatever else. For me it’s about making a weighted and complex decision, where the season itself should weight more, but some other assumptions are also considered.
 

TheGuiminator

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Oct 23, 2018
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Despite Joe Sakic being my favorite player growing up, the 2000-01 season was in reality, a perfect storm of a season for both Sakic and the Avalanche team (winning MVP’s, President & Stanley Cup trophies and so on)

That said, I’m not quite confortable putting Sakic ahead of Lemieux who put up 76 in 43 (lol) in the height of the DPE. You would expect Lemieux being a little rusty after missing 3,5 years, but nope, he was still torching the league, finishing with 1,77 ppg (league leader) and Hart Runner-up behind Super Joe
 

Toby91ca

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Despite Joe Sakic being my favorite player growing up, the 2000-01 season was in reality, a perfect storm of a season for both Sakic and the Avalanche team (winning MVP’s, President & Stanley Cup trophies and so on)

That said, I’m not quite confortable putting Sakic ahead of Lemieux who put up 76 in 43 (lol) in the height of the DPE. You would expect Lemieux being a little rusty after missing 3,5 years, but nope, he was still torching the league, finishing with 1,77 ppg (league leader) and Hart Runner-up behind Super Joe
Well....Sakic outscored him by 42pts so....

I think Mario's performance was amazing, especially considering not having played in a long time and it was indication that he may be taking over as best player again, but I don't think the 43 games was enough to show that and as it turned out....he never got back there in the following years.
 

TheGuiminator

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Oct 23, 2018
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Well....Sakic outscored him by 42pts so....

I think Mario's performance was amazing, especially considering not having played in a long time and it was indication that he may be taking over as best player again, but I don't think the 43 games was enough to show that and as it turned out....he never got back there in the following years.

Yes he did get back to that level (see 2002-03)
 

Video Nasty

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Mar 12, 2017
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And Mario not playing didn't cause the malaise in the first place?

Arbitrarily assigning causes can go any number of different ways...

I’ve never understood the excuses for Jagr’s petulance. They’ve certainly existed for a quarter of a century now, so knock yourself out talking to a brick wall.
 

norrisnick

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Apr 14, 2005
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I’ve never understood the excuses for Jagr’s petulance. They’ve certainly existed for a quarter of a century now, so knock yourself out talking to a brick wall.
I'm not making excuses for petulance. I'm questioning the validity of claims that Mario is the de facto source of a renewed exuberance.
 

Video Nasty

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I'm not making excuses for petulance. I'm questioning the validity of claims that Mario is the de facto source of a renewed exuberance.

Article about a week after return

“As well as Lemieux has played since ending his three-and-a-half-year retirement last week, he has made Jagr play even better.

The scorecard after Lemieux's first two games in 44 months: two victories for the Pittsburgh Penguins and 7 points apiece for Lemieux (two goals, five assists) and Jagr (four goals, all on assists by Lemieux, and three assists).”

Lemieux's comeback is having a dramatic effect on the Penguins, who now consider themselves prime candidates to win the Stanley Cup.


Jagr is playing again with the enthusiasm of a schoolkid and the skill of the past three seasons, when he won the National Hockey League scoring title.

This is the same Jagr who recently had only one goal in 12 games and, as of 10 days ago, was not among the top 20 in scoring.

''He's making a big difference,'' Jagr said
after he and Lemieux reached scoring milestones in the Penguins' 5-3 victory over the Senators. ''I didn't have a good start and I wasn't playing the way I wanted to play, because I'm a player who likes to be on top.

''Everything has changed since he came back,'' Jagr said. ''All of a sudden, there isn't one guy on me all the time. I feel like I'm playing a different game now.''


Are we forgetting that Jagr asked to be traded before Lemieux came out of retirement? (Gee, what was a primary factor that Lemieux unretire?) What is so hard about seeing the effect that Lemieux had which literally makes him the MVP of the team?

It’s not hard to find article after article written during the time that supports the fact that Jagr was disinterested, listless, unhappy, etc until Mario came back. Rejuvenation is constantly referred to and Jagr went from demanding to be shipped out mid season to being mollified by Lemieux’s presence.
 

Video Nasty

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Well....Sakic outscored him by 42pts so....

I think Mario's performance was amazing, especially considering not having played in a long time and it was indication that he may be taking over as best player again, but I don't think the 43 games was enough to show that and as it turned out....he never got back there in the following years.

2002-2003 season

Through January 7, 2003, Lemieux at 2 years older and in a scoring environment a tick lower, had 20 goals and 68 points in 40 games (41 team games).

He had a 15 point lead in the same amount of games in the scoring race as the runner up (Naslund) and was up 15-25 points ahead of everyone else inside the top 10 in scoring.

Other than being older than Modano by 5 years, he was 7-14 years older than everyone else. Just his 48 assists would have placed him 3rd in scoring up to that point.

The Penguins scored 119 goals through 41 games, which means he factored in on 57.1% of their production.

The bottom fell out entirely in the second half with Lemieux’s injury, an already average to middling team being ripped apart through trades and injuries, and the team managed just 70 goals and 10 wins in the final 41 games.

With all due respect, you’re simply wrong.
 

Midnight Judges

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Article about a week after return

It’s not hard to find article after article written during the time that supports the fact that Jagr was disinterested, listless, unhappy, etc until Mario came back. Rejuvenation is constantly referred to and Jagr went from demanding to be shipped out mid season to being mollified by Lemieux’s presence.

I don't think that is what's being disputed.

What's disputable is the idea that Jagr deserves to be bashed for not playing his best hockey, whereas Lemieux somehow deserves less or no criticism for not playing at all.
 
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Video Nasty

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I don't think that is what's being disputed.

What's disputable is the idea that Jagr deserves to be bashed for not playing his best hockey, whereas Lemieux deserves praise for not playing at all.

Yet here we are for the rest of time with easily provided evidence to explain why Lemieux was viewed as the more important player in 2000-2001 than his teammate who won his 4th consecutive Art Ross. Context and reality matters more than what ifs and make believe tales.
 

Toby91ca

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2002-2003 season

Through January 7, 2003, Lemieux at 2 years older and in a scoring environment a tick lower, had 20 goals and 68 points in 40 games (41 team games).

He had a 15 point lead in the same amount of games in the scoring race as the runner up (Naslund) and was up 15-25 points ahead of everyone else inside the top 10 in scoring.

Other than being older than Modano by 5 years, he was 7-14 years older than everyone else. Just his 48 assists would have placed him 3rd in scoring up to that point.

The Penguins scored 119 goals through 41 games, which means he factored in on 57.1% of their production.

The bottom fell out entirely in the second half with Lemieux’s injury, an already average to middling team being ripped apart through trades and injuries, and the team managed just 70 goals and 10 wins in the final 41 games.

With all due respect, you’re simply wrong.
I’ll repeat, Forsberg outscored him by 15pts. You can grab portions of the season if you like, but Forsberg outscored him handily and if you want to go ppg, he had him beat there as well. It’s not without dispute, but certainly not “wrong “ or “simply wrong” to suggest Lemieux wasn’t the best that year. Mario was 15th in Hart voting
 

Midnight Judges

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Yet here we are for the rest of time with easily provided evidence to explain why Lemieux was viewed as the more important player in 2000-2001 than his teammate who won his 4th consecutive Art Ross. Context and reality matters more than what ifs and make believe tales.

I understand that view. I just disagree because it completely forgives quitting, while punishing the guy who actually showed up (even if you don't think it was Jagr's best effort).

Quitting - IMO - is not easily forgivable in a team sport. Maybe it's the way I was raised. I dunno. I almost always had perfect attendance and I always saw things through. I knew other kids that showed up part time. But teams don't work that way. They need to be able to count on you. A team can't count on Mario.
 

Hockey Outsider

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I'm surprised by all the pushback to the notion that Lemieux was the best player in 2001. Maybe you had to be there? I can see an argument for Sakic. But nobody who was actively following the NHL in 2001 could have possibly concluded that Jagr was the better player. It's stat watching 20 years down the road that leads to that conclusion.

What evidence do I have, aside from my own recollections?
  • Here's a media article from Marc 12th, 2001: "Lemieux has gone from mere boss of the Penguins to undisputed king of the NHL". One quote: "Lemieux was supposed to have passed the torch, not quietly set fire to the reputation of an entire generation with it". Another: "Lemieux is like the math whiz who aces every test and trashes the grading curve". And another: "Everybody in the league is trying to have that star so fans can identify with him, and then you get a guy like Lemieux back and you see what a true star is."
  • The Penguins season turned around after Lemieux returned. They allowed essentially the same number of goals against before and after (makes sense since he didn't play defense at this stage in his career). But Pittsburgh scored way more after Lemieux returned (3.87 GPG - highest in the league vs 2.86 before his comeback). And they were 7th in points after Lemieux's return vs 16th before. This supports the notion that Lemieux was the catalyst for their success.
  • It's more than just stats. Here's an article that speaks to Lemieux's impact: "no one has benefited more from Lemieux's comeback than linemate Jaromir Jagr".
  • Everyone is so focused on regular season scoring totals. Lemieux was clearly better in the playoffs. (Granted, both of them were disappointing, but Lemieux far less so).
  • Jagr has done a lot to rehabilitate his image. He was considered a whiner and a complainer around 2001. It was widely speculated (but never proven) that he lost millions of dollars gambling. He was quoted as saying "I'm dying alive". Before Lemieux came back, Jagr had asked for a trade twice. Another article describes Jagr as "brooding". He was considered a malcontent. That detracts from the value he brought to his team.
  • Also, consider Hart voting. Lemieux finished head of Jagr for the Hart trophy in terms of first place votes (8 vs 0) and in terms of total voting points (272 vs 210). But supposedly we know better today because we can read a spreadsheet (which the voters, at the time, also had access to)?
This is strange for me because usually I'm arguing against Lemieux (when people compare him to Gretzky or Howe). And, like I said, there's a valid argument for Sakic in 2001. But there was no argument for Jagr at all (in terms of who's the better player). Nobody, at the time, held that opinion. Let's not look at the scoring race 20+ years later and think that we know better than the people who actually followed this season.
 

Video Nasty

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I’ll repeat, Forsberg outscored him by 15pts. You can grab portions of the season if you like, but Forsberg outscored him handily and if you want to go ppg, he had him beat there as well. It’s not without dispute, but certainly not “wrong “ or “simply wrong” to suggest Lemieux wasn’t the best that year. Mario was 15th in Hart voting

I remember the season well and for the details I’m foggy on or don’t remember, I double check to the best of our ability with what’s available online.

Lemieux was absolutely the best player in the league in the first half of the season. You said he never returned to that level of status of player. That’s what I’m refuting.

Forsberg was the best player in the second half and headed a dynamite line that had insane chemistry together. They fed off each other perfectly and in fantasy leagues, it seemed like every other night that they were collecting 10+ points as a line for some owners.

Let’s not forget that Naslund had his own case when he potted 30 goals in the first half and only lost the scoring crown on the final day of the season.

It’s not as cut and dry as you’re painting it to be. Each Lemieux and Forsberg dominated an entire half of season and Naslund had his own half that was about 1/3 of the season into the final 1/4 of the season.

I'm surprised by all the pushback to the notion that Lemieux was the best player in 2001. Maybe you had to be there? I can see an argument for Sakic. But nobody who was actively following the NHL in 2001 could have possibly concluded that Jagr was the better player. It's stat watching 20 years down the road that leads to that conclusion.

What evidence do I have, aside from my own recollections?
  • Here's a media article from Marc 12th, 2001: "Lemieux has gone from mere boss of the Penguins to undisputed king of the NHL". One quote: "Lemieux was supposed to have passed the torch, not quietly set fire to the reputation of an entire generation with it". Another: "Lemieux is like the math whiz who aces every test and trashes the grading curve". And another: "Everybody in the league is trying to have that star so fans can identify with him, and then you get a guy like Lemieux back and you see what a true star is."
  • The Penguins season turned around after Lemieux returned. They allowed essentially the same number of goals against before and after (makes sense since he didn't play defense at this stage in his career). But Pittsburgh scored way more after Lemieux returned (3.87 GPG - highest in the league vs 2.86 before his comeback). And they were 7th in points after Lemieux's return vs 16th before. This supports the notion that Lemieux was the catalyst for their success.
  • It's more than just stats. Here's an article that speaks to Lemieux's impact: "no one has benefited more from Lemieux's comeback than linemate Jaromir Jagr".
  • Everyone is so focused on regular season scoring totals. Lemieux was clearly better in the playoffs. (Granted, both of them were disappointing, but Lemieux far less so).
  • Jagr has done a lot to rehabilitate his image. He was considered a whiner and a complainer around 2001. It was widely speculated (but never proven) that he lost millions of dollars gambling. He was quoted as saying "I'm dying alive". Before Lemieux came back, Jagr had asked for a trade twice. Another article describes Jagr as "brooding". He was considered a malcontent. That detracts from the value he brought to his team.
  • Also, consider Hart voting. Lemieux finished head of Jagr for the Hart trophy in terms of first place votes (8 vs 0) and in terms of total voting points (272 vs 210). But supposedly we know better today because we can read a spreadsheet (which the voters, at the time, also had access to)?
This is strange for me because usually I'm arguing against Lemieux (when people compare him to Gretzky or Howe). And, like I said, there's a valid argument for Sakic in 2001. But there was no argument for Jagr at all (in terms of who's the better player). Nobody, at the time, held that opinion. Let's not look at the scoring race 20+ years later and think that we know better than the people who actually followed this season.

Finally, reinforcements.
 

TheGuiminator

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Forsberg outscored him by 15pts.

Stat watching without applying any context is a lazy way to look at things.

Forsberg was playing in a powerhouse Colorado team and got red hot at the last week of the season, winning the Art Ross by 2 points. On the other hand, the 2002-03 Penguins were an absolute train wreck of a team and it didn’t stop Lemieux from leading the league for 75% of the season.

He first started with 29 points in his first 12 games. Then at the first half of the season, he was still leading the league with 68 points in 41 games (the runner-up was Naslund with 56 pts and Forsberg was 20 points behind Lemieux).

Then Lemieux got hurt and missed about a month, yet he was still ahead of Naslund by 1 point when he came back in early February. Also, Kovalev who was Lemieux’s main linemate, was traded around the time Lemieux came back. Then Naslund & Lemieux went back in forth in the scoring race for a month and March 2nd 2003 was the last time Lemieux ever led the league. By that point, Lemieux was a one man army for the rest of the season in a complete dumpster fire of a team. However, he still finished with 91 in 67 (good for 8th).

That said, Mario Lemieux was the best player in the league (at least offensively) from 01 to 03 and it’s a hill I will die on.
 
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norrisnick

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I'm surprised by all the pushback to the notion that Lemieux was the best player in 2001. Maybe you had to be there? I can see an argument for Sakic. But nobody who was actively following the NHL in 2001 could have possibly concluded that Jagr was the better player. It's stat watching 20 years down the road that leads to that conclusion.

What evidence do I have, aside from my own recollections?

  • Here's a media article from Marc 12th, 2001: "Lemieux has gone from mere boss of the Penguins to undisputed king of the NHL". One quote: "Lemieux was supposed to have passed the torch, not quietly set fire to the reputation of an entire generation with it". Another: "Lemieux is like the math whiz who aces every test and trashes the grading curve". And another: "Everybody in the league is trying to have that star so fans can identify with him, and then you get a guy like Lemieux back and you see what a true star is."
  • The Penguins season turned around after Lemieux returned. They allowed essentially the same number of goals against before and after (makes sense since he didn't play defense at this stage in his career). But Pittsburgh scored way more after Lemieux returned (3.87 GPG - highest in the league vs 2.86 before his comeback). And they were 7th in points after Lemieux's return vs 16th before. This supports the notion that Lemieux was the catalyst for their success.
  • It's more than just stats. Here's an article that speaks to Lemieux's impact: "no one has benefited more from Lemieux's comeback than linemate Jaromir Jagr".
  • Everyone is so focused on regular season scoring totals. Lemieux was clearly better in the playoffs. (Granted, both of them were disappointing, but Lemieux far less so).
  • Jagr has done a lot to rehabilitate his image. He was considered a whiner and a complainer around 2001. It was widely speculated (but never proven) that he lost millions of dollars gambling (and/or on risky investments). He was quoted as saying "I'm dying alive". Before Lemieux came back, Jagr had asked for a trade twice. Another article describes Jagr as "brooding". He was considered a malcontent. That detracts from the value he brought to his team.
  • Also, consider Hart voting. Lemieux finished head of Jagr for the Hart trophy in terms of first place votes (8 vs 0) and in terms of total voting points (272 vs 210). But supposedly we know better today because we can read a spreadsheet (which the voters, at the time, also had access to)?
This is strange for me because usually I'm arguing against Lemieux (when people compare him to Gretzky or Howe). And, like I said, there's a valid argument for Sakic in 2001. But there was no argument for Jagr at all. Nobody, at the time, held that opinion. Let's not look at the scoring race 20+ years later and think that we know better than the people who actually followed this season.
Absolutes don't really help anything.

I was watching. I just wasn't writing puff pieces about the most captivating storyline in decades. But the trick here is not falling for the storylines. Watching those games it was very clear who the stronger player was. Controlling play, doing the bulk of the work. Jagr didn't outproduce Lemieux by accident. He started to try after 36 games of not trying, but when he tried, he was better.

Why praise the malcontent when you can beatify the literal HOFer coming in for the rescue? Mario sells more papers and garners more clicks.
 

Midnight Judges

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  • Jagr has done a lot to rehabilitate his image. He was considered a whiner and a complainer around 2001. It was widely speculated (but never proven) that he lost millions of dollars gambling. He was quoted as saying "I'm dying alive". Before Lemieux came back, Jagr had asked for a trade twice. Another article describes Jagr as "brooding". He was considered a malcontent. That detracts from the value he brought to his team.

It certainly detracts. And who do you think Jagr learned all the prima donna stuff from?
 

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