Best player from 2006 draft?

[x Tame Impala]

I feel like this is pretty heavily underselling Giroux, who was ranked a top-5 center 4 times over a span of 8 years, peaking out as a Hart finalist.

Giroux was also solid defensively, not a Selke winner but good enough to get Selke votes. The idea of him being all-offense just isn’t correct.

He is Toews’ equal as a faceoff man, both of them top 5 in their era, except Giroux doesn’t get the credit for it that Toews and Bergeron do. That’s the impact of playing on a far better team and getting that spotlight year after year.

You’re right, Giroux didn’t make the 2010 Olympic team. He was in his sophomore season and a 47 point winger, whereas Toews was in his fourth year and nearing his peak as a player. On the other hand, Giroux led the league in assists and scored 102 points in 2018, when Toews was on his third consecutive sub-60 point season. Toews enjoyed a very early start to his prime, while Giroux is currently PPG at age 37. The timing of their careers cuts both ways.

At the end of the day, I don’t see how there’s any big gap between them. Do the Blackhawks suddenly become incapable of winning Cups if we replace peak-aged Toews with a peak-aged Giroux? Does Toews have the same rings with Voracek and Provorov that he did with Kane and Keith? We do know that Giroux dragged that dysfunctional mess of a team kicking and screaming into the playoffs more often than not, so dismissing him as a “fantasy points” player seems about as fair as dismissing Toews as an overrated support player. Neither makes sense given that they were both among the top centers in the league at their best.

I mean, we know Toews outperformed Giroux in the 2010 Finals where Giroux himself had a very good forward corps in Philly along with Chris freaking Pronger on D. Briere had 30 points in the playoffs that year, Richards had 23, and the Flyers had Carter, Hartnell, Leine, and Gagne. Toews and Giroux are from the same draft class I think it’s fair to compare them directly. Toews had 9 points in 9 games during the bubble playoffs too it’s not like he was a bad playoff performer.

I suppose Toews peaking early and Giroux peaking later does sort of cancel it out. Unfortunately I’m not sure why Toews fell off so hard after 2015. It was a major detriment to the Hawks considering his cap hit and role on the team. Personally I bet he lost the drive at that point. 3 Cups + 2 WCF appearances, 1 Smythe, 2 gold medals, and a perennial Selke nominee all before he turned 27 years old and then he got a $84 million dollar contract on top of it. Maybe the guy had just done it all at that point and the fire went out.

Officially no I don’t think Giroux was capable of what Toews accomplished even though he was better at producing offense. Giroux was a very good defensive player and very good at faceoffs as well.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

Voted Backstrom but in retrospect I’d probably rather have Giroux.

Toews was a great player but I find it impossible to not hold against him his dereliction of duty as the team captain/leader during the Kyle Beach incident

 

[centipede2233]

Anyone picking girioux over toews boggles my mind.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Anyone picking girioux over toews boggles my mind.

People who slander Toews do nothing but look at the numbers and feel they don't add up.

2010 was a monster year for Toews.
He won MVP for the Olympics as he was consistently the best player. But people only talk about the Crosby Golden Goal, even though Crosby was a very mediocre forward for the entire tournament.

Toews lead Team Canada in Scoring and was CLEARLY the best player from the first game.




Toews and Giroux faced each other that same year in the Stanley Cup Finals.
Both had ugly goal shares in that series (4 points for Giroux, 3A for Toews), but Toews walked away with the cup and the Conn Smyth.


You had to have watched the games to appreciate Toews.

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

Toews
Giroux
Marchand
Backstrom
Kessel

 

[tarheelhockey]

You had to have watched the games to appreciate Toews.

You think people didn’t watch the Olympics and the Stanley Cup playoffs?

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Toews

 

[1865]

Giroux was a better player, Toews was on a better team.

183 more points and growing, if he had a HOF guy like Kane on his wing for his whole career too then there'd be no debate.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Giroux was a better player, Toews was on a better team.

183 more points and growing, if he had a HOF guy like Kane on his wing for his whole career too then there'd be no debate.

Pretty sure they played on different lines my dude.

I believe Toews was mostly with Hossa.

You think people didn’t watch the Olympics and the Stanley Cup playoffs?

Literally everyone calling Crosby the MVP of the Olympics, which is almost every Crosby thread.

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

Uh, where’s Erik Johnson?

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

Giroux was a better player, Toews was on a better team.

183 more points and growing, if he had a HOF guy like Kane on his wing for his whole career too then there'd be no debate.

We saw this with the Olympic teams where Giroux was much more important than Toews.

 

[1865]

Pretty sure they played on different lines my dude.

I believe Toews was mostly with Hossa.


Literally everyone calling Crosby the MVP of the Olympics, which is almost every Crosby thread.

According to the Athletic, they played together for 5,218 minutes. That's not their whole careers, but a lot of games! In any case, even if they're split up there's a knock-on effect for quality of competition they face. The Crosby and Malkin effect.

 

[1865]

We saw this with the Olympic teams where Giroux was much more important than Toews.

If your only argument for Toews being better than Giroux is the Olympic selection (where Kunitz somehow did) then you're on thin ice.

I don't want to get into a spiral of dismissing Toews, he was a great captain and a really good player. Giroux was another level though, constantly let down by a back office who couldn't put a great team around him.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Giroux
1189gp 353-720-1073 (.902)
Peaked as a top-3 assist and point scorer
One Finals run, no Cup
1x 2nd all star team, 1x Hart finalist

Giroux had the worst team situation by a significant margin, but hit the highest offensive peak in this group while also playing a solid 200 foot game, and having the versatility to move effectively from C to W. Swap his team context with one of the other players and this is probably not a thread.

Toews
1067gp, 372-511-883 (.828)
One-season peak at 5th in goals, otherwise not top 10
Three Finals runs, three Cups
1x 2nd all star team, Selke Trophy, Smythe Trophy

Lowest offensive caliber of the group, but he’s the clear-cut best 200 foot player and you can’t just brush off his performances at the highest stage. Gets a boost for his outstanding international career.

Marchand
1038gp 402-533-935 (.901)
Peaked as a top 4-6 goal, 5-10 assist, 3-5 point scorer
Three Finals runs, one Cup
2x 1st all star team, 2x 2nd all star team

Crazy to be rating him third, because he has been an elite player for a long time. He would have ranked higher if he weren’t such a late bloomer, which hurts his overall career value. He brought an edge that gives him value beyond his numbers.

Backstrom
1105gp 271-762-1033 (.935)
Peaked as a top-3 assist scorer, 4-10 range in points
One Finals run, one Cup
No significant personal hardware

Ranked him over Kessel because at the end of the day, points are points and he plays the more valuable position. But his numbers are obviously inflated by playing with the GOAT goal scorer.

Kessel
1286gp 413-579-992 (.771)
Peaked in the 5th-10th range in goals and points
Two Finals runs, two Cups (plus the Vegas Cup)
No significant personal hardware

Kessel as the 5th best player in a draft means it was a really good draft. A borderline HOF’er, decent two-way player while also a high-end offensive threat. On the down side, a soft winger with “character concerns” related to the NHL’s culture of shunning introverts. Bit of a compiler to get the regular season numbers he did, but also had a couple of very strong playoffs leading to Cups. Strong international career.

100%.

 

[Regal]

If your only argument for Toews being better than Giroux is the Olympic selection (where Kunitz somehow did) then you're on thin ice.

I don't want to get into a spiral of dismissing Toews, he was a great captain and a really good player. Giroux was another level though, constantly let down by a back office who couldn't put a great team around him.

Toews was the best forward in 2010, it’s not about him being selected. If you prefer Giroux that’s fine but there’s no argument for him being on another level other than staying healthy and being in a better position to put up PP points.

 

[Regal]

According to the Athletic, they played together for 5,218 minutes. That's not their whole careers, but a lot of games! In any case, even if they're split up there's a knock-on effect for quality of competition they face. The Crosby and Malkin effect.

Kane wasn’t regularly among the scoring leaders until the 2013 season, after they were split up. They scored pretty much the same when they were together. When they were split, Kane received heavy offensive minutes and Toews was going head to head against the opponents best. Quality of competition didn’t work in Toews’s favour.

 

[banks]

Toews for me. But lots of people are making a really good case for Giroux. I respect that, and it is admittedly closer than my gut thought when I voted.

Toews was just too good in big moments. It was like being down by a goal late in a playoff game just wasn't a worry, because Toews would find a way to equalize. That was the impression I was always left with. The stats and stories back that up.

The eye test is enough for me to vote Toews over Giroux. And I don't think Backstrom/Marchand have a case here. Poor Phil the Thrill is once again last (but not least).

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

If your only argument for Toews being better than Giroux is the Olympic selection (where Kunitz somehow did) then you're on thin ice.

I don't want to get into a spiral of dismissing Toews, he was a great captain and a really good player. Giroux was another level though, constantly let down by a back office who couldn't put a great team around him.

There's no other comparison then. Since you're already saying that the Blackhawks carried Toews. So I guess we're throwing out their NHL careers.

They both had the chance to make Canada, one guy never did, the other guy was either their best or one of their best players.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Literally everyone calling Crosby the MVP of the Olympics, which is almost every Crosby thread.

Then by your own logic, all those people who watched the games must be right.

Right?

 

[tarheelhockey]

According to the Athletic, they played together for 5,218 minutes. That's not their whole careers, but a lot of games! In any case, even if they're split up there's a knock-on effect for quality of competition they face. The Crosby and Malkin effect.

Not to mention the Blackhawks were more than just Kane and Toews. It’s also Keith, Seabrook, Hossa, Sharp, and some really good depth behind them. Opponents had to account for all of those threats, which as we’ve seen with numerous dynasty teams, opens up more and more opportunity for everyone to get their licks in.

Who was Giroux’s best long term teammate? Voracek? Carter?

 

[Wings4Life]

Giroux for me, but it's close.

 

[Panthaz89]

Giroux was always better than Toews.....just played for the Flyers.