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Best One-Two Center Punch

Gretzky - Messier
Lemieux - Francis
Crosby - Malkin
Beliveau - Richard

then the rest.

Fair enough, I have the same but without Lemieux and Francis. There was just too little time with them together. 1991 to 1997. I am not sure if Sakic and Forsberg weren't just as good of a combo in 1996 or 1997, or at least close to it. Mario is the best out of all 4 but Francis is the 4th best.

Plus the injury factor. 1992 for whatever reason Francis had a terrible year. 1993 both were great even though Mario played just 60 games. 1994 Mario misses most of the season. 1995 he misses the whole season. 1996 and 1997 they are playing full seasons more or less. As much as you want to put Lemieux up high I just don't see it since there wasn't that staying power. I'd put Yzerman and Fedorov ahead of them because they were together for so long.
 
Fair enough, I have the same but without Lemieux and Francis. There was just too little time with them together. 1991 to 1997. I am not sure if Sakic and Forsberg weren't just as good of a combo in 1996 or 1997, or at least close to it. Mario is the best out of all 4 but Francis is the 4th best.

Plus the injury factor. 1992 for whatever reason Francis had a terrible year. 1993 both were great even though Mario played just 60 games. 1994 Mario misses most of the season. 1995 he misses the whole season. 1996 and 1997 they are playing full seasons more or less. As much as you want to put Lemieux up high I just don't see it since there wasn't that staying power. I'd put Yzerman and Fedorov ahead of them because they were together for so long.

Francis is a great player who often gets underappreciated around here I feel - but he's still an extremely weak point in this thread. If Lemieux/Francis get any consideration for top 1-2 punch, it's solely on the back of Lemieux's success. Remove Lemieux and it's not even a debate. Add any other decent enough center to Lemieux instead of Francis and their rank doesn't change much. So it's nowhere near a 1a/1b dynamic, not even really a 1-2, more like a 1 and....maybe 4 in comparison.

Although Messier is very far from Gretzky - at least he's still a great 2 compared to everyone else here, so that's more of a 1-2 punch.
 
I'm going to cherry pick a few of these duos & isolate their best statistical performances together:

72-73
Clarke 78-37-67-104
MacLeish 78-50-50-100
204 points
2 Cups together

78-79
Dionne 80-59-71-130
Goring 80-36-51-87
217 points

80-81 playoffs
Trottier 18-11-18-29
Goring 18-10-10-20
49 points in 18 games
4 Cups together

83-84
Gretzky 74-87-118-205
Messier 73-37-64-101
306 points
4 Cups together

84-85
Dionne 80-46-80-126
Nicholls 80-46-54-100
226 points

88-89
Gretzky 78-54-114-168
Nicholls 79-70-80-150
318 points

92-93
Lemieux 60-69-91-160
Francis 84-24-76-100
260 points
2 Cups together

92-93
Yzerman 84-58-79-137
Fedorov 73-34-53-87
224 points
3 Cups together

95-96
Sakic 82-51-69-120
Forsberg 82-30-86-116
236 points
2 Cups together

08-09
Malkin 82-35-78-113
Crosby 77-33-70-103
216 points
3 Cups togehter
 
I'm going to cherry pick a few of these duos & isolate their best statistical performances together:

72-73
Clarke 78-37-67-104
MacLeish 78-50-50-100
204 points
2 Cups together

78-79
Dionne 80-59-71-130
Goring 80-36-51-87
217 points

80-81 playoffs
Trottier 18-11-18-29
Goring 18-10-10-20
49 points in 18 games
4 Cups together

83-84
Gretzky 74-87-118-205
Messier 73-37-64-101
306 points
4 Cups together

84-85
Dionne 80-46-80-126
Nicholls 80-46-54-100
226 points

88-89
Gretzky 78-54-114-168
Nicholls 79-70-80-150
318 points

92-93
Lemieux 60-69-91-160
Francis 84-24-76-100
260 points
2 Cups together

92-93
Yzerman 84-58-79-137
Fedorov 73-34-53-87
224 points
3 Cups together

95-96
Sakic 82-51-69-120
Forsberg 82-30-86-116
236 points
2 Cups together

08-09
Malkin 82-35-78-113
Crosby 77-33-70-103
216 points
3 Cups togehter

Good post. I saw you added Trottier and Goring 81 playoffs, so I’ll add this:

2009 playoffs
Malkin 24-14-22-36
Crosby 24-15-16-31

Respective linemates
Malkin:
Fedotenko 24-7-7-14
Talbot 24-8-5-13

Crosby:
Guerin 24-7-8-15
Kunitz 24-1-13-14

Both players had more pts than their linemates combined, which is pretty rare for a 24 game sample size.

Definitely up there with some other duos for the contention of the 2nd best playoff run (after Gretzky and Messier).

However, it might very well be the most “impressive” given how they carried the team.
 
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in my life time it is Gretz-Mess

while Gretz was finesse-Mess was brute force and finesse

they played different style of games and that kept teams on their backs when they ran hot
 
On that list I'd take Stastny/Hunter then trade Stastny for Bobby Clarke.
 
Bobby Smith & Neal Broten are the best 1-2 center punch in hockey history

Why? For whatever reason the OP had for including them in this thread



Yeah.... Both great 2 way centers and both were capable of winning a cup as the top guy, but they're out of place on that list for sure.
 
It happens, granted that Boston series in 2013 was downright ugly but Gretzky/Messier had that same thing in 1983. There were some playoff disappointments after 1960 and before 1965 with Beliveau and Richard too. Traditionally it has been very hard to contain Crosby and Malkin because you had them on back to back shifts even if they do bring much of the same to the table.



Big difference is that in 1983 the oilers hadn't won yet, they were all still young. In 2013 the pens had already choked for a bunch of years in a row.
 
Yzerman / Fedorov won just as many Cups as Crosby / Malkin and one less Cup than Gretzky / Messier. Just sayin'.
Yzerman / Fedorov was a formidable duo of centers, but I'd still rank them below not only Messier-Gretzky and H.Richard-Beliveau, but also Crosby-Malkin, and the reason is that Yzerman was hitting sort-of his late prime when Fedorov was just coming into his prime. Don't get me wrong, Yzerman was still elite when Fedorov became an All-Star, but he wasn't quite the shifty/speedy Yzerman of c.1987 to 1992. By the time they won a Cup together, Yzerman was over 30.

It's just very rare to find the situation where the two all-time elite stars are both very young and entering their primes together (as with Gretzky-Messier).

The thing is, the Wings might have had similar depth at center earlier in Yzerman's prime if they hadn't foolishly traded away Adam Oates...
 
Yzerman / Fedorov won just as many Cups as Crosby / Malkin and one less Cup than Gretzky / Messier. Just sayin'.

yeah it's a great duo but i'd have them behind both Crosby Malkin and Forsberg Sakic. Detroit had a great team - less reliant on 2c than most. Still amazing players
 
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How about we look at the first half of Stanley Cup history?

What was the greatest duo of centers prior to Beliveau-H.Richard in the mid-50's?

I don't know but on first reflection...

Cowley-Schmidt won a couple of cups, Bill with peak years, Milt on a legendary line.

Kennedy-Bentley were effective for years after an aged Apps Sr. left the greatest trio of centers ever.

When Hooley Smith was a 1st team all star center (moved from rw), was that on a line other than Nel Stewart's, or was that when Old Poison played some wing?

I can't recall any other HHOF duo centers from the early NHL era. And looking back at the earliest era, there weren't two lines. HHOFer Blair Russel moved from center to right wing to play with HHOFer Russell Bowie. In his early days natural center Hooley Smith shifted to wing to play with fellow HHOF center Moose Watson.

It's unclear... what was the best center duo prior to 1954?
 
Until further notice, the very best 1-2 Center punch in Hockey History will be:

Gretzky and [insert name here].

Number two will be-

Lemieux and [insert name here].

After that, it gets interesting- in rough order, Béliveau-H. Richard, Crosby-Malkin, Sakic-Forsberg and Yzerman-Fedorov separate from the rest of the pack.

Post 13 mentioned Lindros-Brind'Amour. At this point, I'd like to make the public-service announcement/reminder that Brind'Amour was a minus player during his time in Philadelphia. Lindros got less benefit from playing with him than is commonly believed.
 
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That's a good point. Malkin is a ridiculous 2C, because for most of his career, he's probably been the second best center in the league, not just on his own team.

I look at this way....If I had Gretzky and Messier as my top pairing to start with, I'd have absolutely no fear of any other pairing on this list. If they had stayed together in Edmonton, I'm actually not sure how strongly I'd choose them, because as you've mentioned how clearly Crosby and Malkin have established themselves as the two best over a long period. However, what convinces me to go with Gretzky/Messier is Messier's ability to win the Hart in Edmonton after Gretzky left, and then again with a new team in the Rangers. It really shows that Messier wasn't just being pulled along by a dynasty (facing easier second pairings etc), but rather that he was an integral part of that dynasty and maybe even more important in some ways - mind you, you could already see hints of this with his '84 Conn Smythe.

And I'm not really a Gretzky/Messier fan.

Same can be said about Forsberg. Malkin has never been categorized as best player in league while Peter for a couple years had an argument.
And the argument with Messier can be used in with others in the list like Fedorov, Forsberg, and Francis
 
One thing to bring into the discussion here is how important a strong number two center has been, historically, to teams that win the Cup: Beliveau-Richard (8), Clarke-MacLeish (2), Trottier-Goring (4), Gretzky-Messier (4), Lemieux-Francis (2), Yzerman-Fedorov (3), Sakic-Forsberg (2), Crosby-Malkin (3) - that's 30 Cups right there. Now try to imagine each of those teams without the number two guy being on the team, just a big gaping hole filled by the next guy down the depth chart - how many Cups do these teams forfeit without the number two guy? Do the Broad Street Bullies get past the Habs & Bruins without MacLeish? Do the Isles lose their dynasty status if their #2 is Wayne Merrick? Does an aging Trottier slot into #2 spot & get the #1 spot by default when Lemieux is out? Do the contemporary Penguins even sniff a Cup without Malkin? Try to remove the Forsberg piece from the Avalanche puzzle etc. etc. etc.

I'm trying to imagine the Oilers without Messier. Before Sather converted Messier to center, he brought in Kenny Linseman, but when Messier made the successful conversion, he pretty much bumped Linseman from the #2 spot & made him redundant & expendable. So assume with no Messier Sather hangs on to Linseman (so no Krushelnyski) - how do the lines shake out? Sather found that Messier at center had chemistry with Glenn Anderson playing his off-wing on Messier's right side. With no Messier, does Anderson stay on the left side & stick with Gretzky-Kurri? Or does he keep Anderson with Linseman to strengthen the second line? Assuming he does this, for 83 & 84 we might see Anderson-Linseman-Willy Lindstrom as the second unit - but how long beyond this can Jaroslav Pouzar anchor the left of Gretzky-Kurri? Can the Oilers avoid bumping Anderson to the top line, or does Linseman have to rotate through guys like Lindstrom, Pat Hughes, Dave Hunter & later Raimo Summanen & Mark Napier, playing his wings without Anderson? How does a Messier-less Oilers stack up against a Goring-less Isles in the 83 Finals? How many Cups can a Gretzky-Linseman duo pull before Gretzky gets shipped out?
When Goring joined the Islanders, he was touted as "the missing piece of the puzzle." The Isles had been strong playoff performers, but with Goring in the #2 spot behind Trottier, it was widely believed at the time that he was the reason they were able to finally make it over the top.

When Goring joined the Islanders, he was widely touted as being the "missing piece of the puzzle," & the Isles went on to win four Cups with Goring as #2 behind Trottier, with Goring picking up a Smythe recognizing his clutch play. Now, at the time the Isles were probably strong enough to go the distance without him, particularly given the weak competition in 81 & 82, but they may have struggled to hit that same high mark of going 4/5 in the Finals.

But, yeah, 30 Cups with teams having strong number twos. I'd say there is substantial evidence to suggest that historically, having a strong number two center, dramatically increases the chances of the teams winning the Cup.
 
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Who can top this?

In 1939-40, following their 1939 Stanley Cup championship, Boston had Milt Schmidt (1st in NHL points & assists) and Bill Cowley (3rd in assists, 5th in points).

The Bruins won another Stanley Cup the following season, in 1940-41, with Cowley (1st in assists & points) and Schmidt (4th assists, 11th points).

Cowley-Schmidt may be the least heralded 1-2 punch down the middle at center.

Note: the Leafs, a few years later, getting Max Bentley to join Syl Apps Sr. and Kennedy may have muddied the waters.
 
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One thing to bring into the discussion here is how important a strong number two center has been, historically, to teams that win the Cup:

I think making the same exercise with stronger number one center having a strong number 1 defenceman or strong goaltender or even strong winger would also show an impressive amount of Stanley Cup, that is expected to name team that had the chance to have 2 great players at the same time to win.

Many great team (including arguably the best with the 70s Habs, 80s Islanders) were not really defined by that 1-2 punch and many people talking about recent winner went about the first center, number one defenceman, good goaltending formula to win. But many of those formula end up sounding like a team with many good players win's, without much more insight.

In hockey the way the game is so much longer than individual ice time, feel like all piece can always contribute a bit regardless of there distribution.
 
Hard to argue against Gretzky's overwhelming dominance but i think Crosby/Malkin are a secure #2. Not even counting the cups and playoff dominance, they're the only 1-2 punch of any on the list that have both won multiple art rosses.
 
Same can be said about Forsberg. Malkin has never been categorized as best player in league while Peter for a couple years had an argument.
And the argument with Messier can be used in with others in the list like Fedorov, Forsberg, and Francis

Well, that's why I put in the word for Messier. Because, others may think that other pairings have a distinct advantage at 2C. If the 2C's are close enough, then Gretzky is what puts this pairing over the top.
 
The WORST one-two center punch among successful (Stanley Cup) teams has to be one of the New Jersey teams. Probably it's:

Gomez
Arnott

They are light years away from HHOFers.
 

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