Best Defensive Wingers

[BarnabyJones PI]

No, he doesn't.

I'm curious. Does he have a bloated reputation among Boston fans?

 

[Staniowski]

Two of my favourites:

 

[Gorskyontario]

not to be that guy, but alex burrows was an all timer

No he wasn't. He was above average at best.

 

[carjackmalone]

Dave Poulin
Steve Kasper
Dave Lowry

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I'm curious. Does he have a bloated reputation among Boston fans?

Not really. No more so than all teams fan bases overrating their stars.

But we are talking about the best defensive wingers ever here.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

No, he doesn't.

Yeah a winger who is arguably the best PK'er of his era and a routine Selke vote getter is totally not what qualifies for this thread...

 

[rmartin65]

Yeah a winger who is arguably the best PK'er of his era and a routine Selke vote getter is totally not what qualifies for this thread...

That’s a pretty generous qualification of “routine Selke vote getter". Never higher than 9th.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Yeah a winger who is arguably the best PK'er of his era and a routine Selke vote getter is totally not what qualifies for this thread...

Correct.

We are talking about all-time great defensive wingers. Not a guy whose best finish in Selke voting is 9th. And that's been primarily due to Boston writers voting for Marchand. Playing with Bergeron made it a much easier job to defend also.

 

[BenchBrawl]

In terms of pure wingers in the early eras George Hay has to be up there.

Not sure he would have been "Selke winner level" considering the myriad of great defensive centers, but his defense was praised during his entire career.

 

[seventieslord]

Although Marchand is an all-time great penalty killer, the numbers don't really support him being an excellent defensive player at even strength. His analytics numbers for defense have mostly hovered around average.

Which, to be fair, is excellent for a player with his offensive abilities. Most guys who are consistently above 80% in offensive play driving metrics tend to be bottom of the barrel defensively. Managing to show up as average defensively means he's WELL above average, for a high scoring winger, but in the grand scheme of things, still average.

Give him a huge bonus for his otherworldly penalty killing record, and I still don't see how he's deserving of mention in this thread.

Chronologically, I'd name guys like Rusty Crawford, George Hay, Frank Finnigan, Baldy Northcott, Marty Pavelich, Nick Metz, Pulford, Armstrong, Marshall, Marcotte, Westfall, Ramsay, Gainey, Kurri, Tikkanen, Erixon, Lehtinen and Stone.

The fact that this was all I was able to come up with off the top of my head shows how most of the all-time defensive forward greats played center. I could name four times as many of them in the same amount of time.

 

[Davenport]

How about a Hall of Fame centre whose skating ability and hockey sense was such that he could be put at left wing to defend against the opposition's top right winger? He was so good at left wing that he was named to All Star team at that position (second team) in 1958-59. That was Alex Delvecchio.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I always wondered Lehtinen's reputation (deserved surely) about defensive prowess. I was young during his career and didn't catch a lot of his games since we rarely got games in Finnish TV. He never realle seemed to hustle that much. Not lazy by any means, but never got the impression of him being high energy player who covered ice/opponents with effort and speed. His 3 Selke trophies tell a story but was his game more refined and smart than hustle and work?

This is only a rough comparison, but Lehtinen had some similarities to Lidstrom. Neither was the biggest, strongest or fastest player on the ice - their success was due to smart positioning and a great ability to read and anticipate their opponents. Lehtinen was calm and disciplined. (His career high was 30 penalty minutes - a miniscule amount given the amount of ice time he received, and the difficulty of many of his assignments). His strength was underrated - he wasn't going to throw thunderous checks, but despite being fairly average size, he could outmuscle opponents ten or twenty pounds heavier. He was very good at using his stick to poke away the puck, or to lift up the opponent's stick. He was masterful in the 1999 Stanley Cup finals, completely shutting down Miro Satan.

In terms of weaknesses - Lehtinen was a fairly poor passer. His goal-scoring wasn't quite as good as his totals suggested (many of them were a result of Modano's underrated playmaking). But strictly in terms of defensive play? He may have been the second best defensive winger ever (after Gainey, of course).

 

[Crosby2010]

I had to do a double take on the plight of wingers winning the Selke. Because originally the ones who won it were wingers. Gainey won the first 4, Craig Ramsay won it and was a constant threat to win it.

Kurri comes to mind for me as someone who was one of the more recent wingers who was elite defensively. John Tonelli too. Just tenacious on the forecheck, excellent two-way guy winger in the playoffs too.

However I think why centres get the love is because of things like the faceoff being the starting point of puck control and just more overall responsibility on the ice. Maybe the most recent elite winger defensively could be Zetterberg, when he was actually playing on the wing. Alfredsson was mentioned already, he peaked at 4th in Selke voting.

But I am going to say Mitch Marner would be the guy today who is the most elite winger defensively. Mark Stone as well would be my next thought. Stone has done it elite in the playoffs too while Marner for whatever reason hasn't hit that next gear. I could honestly see Marner winning the Selke sometime. He isn't overly physical, but neither was Lehtinen, who is the last winger to win it.

 

[frisco]

Dave Poulin
Steve Kasper
Dave Lowry

Poulin was mostly a centreman. Kasper was fulltime centre. Great defensive players, though.

My Best-Carey

 

[MS]

not to be that guy, but alex burrows was an all timer

i’ve never seen anyone dominate defending a 5-on-3 like him

another great defensive winger who had some success with the sedins (although only briefly) was arvedson

Burrows in his prime was the best defensive winger in the NHL and I'll go to my grave feeling that he was basically an equal player to Jere Lehtinen, who didn't get the recognition he deserved for several reasons :

1) the switch to 'C-only' voting for the Selke
2) voter/fan animosity toward Burrows and his Tikkanen-esque play style.
3) played on the West Coast.
4) the presence of Ryan Kesler who got all the defensive accolades but who to me was an inferior defensive player to Burrows.

 

[carjackmalone]

Stan Smyl was a beast in his prime offensively and defensively

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Burrows in his prime was the best defensive winger in the NHL and I'll go to my grave feeling that he was basically an equal player to Jere Lehtinen, who didn't get the recognition he deserved for several reasons :

1) the switch to 'C-only' voting for the Selke
2) voter/fan animosity toward Burrows and his Tikkanen-esque play style.
3) played on the West Coast.
4) the presence of Ryan Kesler who got all the defensive accolades but who to me was an inferior defensive player to Burrows.

i’m not sure about 4 (though imo burrows was the better PKer) but obviously i agree with most of this

one of the smartest players i’ve ever watched and on top of that one of the best most relentless motors. the rarest of combinations

 

[alko]

As a hockey fan, who didn't played ice-hockey, what should i look, when i want to check good defensive forward?
What should he do on the ice? What not?

 

[NyQuil]

As a hockey fan, who didn't played ice-hockey, what should i look, when i want to check good defensive forward?
What should he do on the ice? What not?

A lot of it is about situational awareness, hockey IQ and anticipation.

Is their best player on the ice? Is he free and available? The top scorers have a knack for separating themselves from coverage at the best possible time - a split second, they are free by the net, and it's in. Knowing what play is developing and getting into the correct position to mitigate or prevent the play from happening is important.

A good defensive forward manages to keep up with their assignments relentlessly, and generate turnovers either through physical interception or an active stick, and do it without taking a penalty.

In the offensive zone or neutral zone, a good defensive forward is positioned to intercept passes, break up rushes, and steal pucks or generate turnovers on defencemen, but reads the play well enough not to get caught too far up the ice and is able to track down opposing rushing forwards and keep track of trailers who enter the zone belatedly.

They are able to recognize when a defenceman is pinching and instantly ensure that the blueline is covered in their absence. They communicate with their teammates and are able to switch checking assignments smoothly and without leaving anyone open.

They don't coast back when the other team has the puck, rather they identify a possible threat and rapidly get within checking distance or they follow-up to provide odd-man support to the defence.

They use their active stick to extend their zone of influence and force opposing players into less than advantageous positions, passes or shooting opportunities.

They demonstrate a willingness to block shots when called upon, and do so efficiently and effectively and without taking themselves out of the play entirely (e.g. sliding across the ice unnecessarily).

They are able to pin or impede the opposition along the boards without taking obstruction penalties. They are willing and able to battle physically for the puck.

When they do have the puck, they manage the puck carefully, avoiding turnovers through missed or blind passes and avoid casual dump-ins right to the opposition. They avoid putting the puck in dangerous areas like up the middle of the ice. They are able to buy themselves time if pressed, as opposed to blindly getting rid of it and risking a dangerous opportunity against. They clear the puck efficiently when needed with sufficient strength to allow a line change but avoid icing it or putting it over the glass. Or they simply skate or pass the puck out of danger but without turning it over.

Faceoff ability is an easy stat to count that people now ascribe to good defence, but it's really sort of its own skillset entirely. Penalty killing is another ability that some people equate to good defence but I also think of it as its own skillset.

Wingers tend to have more consistent responsibilities in certain areas of the ice whereas centres have to recognize where they are needed at the time. It could be coverage, it could be assisting with a puck battle, it could be virtually anywhere on the ice so it really requires an extra level of anticipation and understanding of where the play is developing.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Burrows in his prime was the best defensive winger in the NHL and I'll go to my grave feeling that he was basically an equal player to Jere Lehtinen, who didn't get the recognition he deserved for several reasons :

1) the switch to 'C-only' voting for the Selke
2) voter/fan animosity toward Burrows and his Tikkanen-esque play style.
3) played on the West Coast.
4) the presence of Ryan Kesler who got all the defensive accolades but who to me was an inferior defensive player to Burrows.

No he wasn't. Burrows was above average at best.

i’m not sure about 4 (though imo burrows was the better PKer) but obviously i agree with most of this

one of the smartest players i’ve ever watched and on top of that one of the best most relentless motors. the rarest of combinations

It's funny how the canucks had the best goalscorer ever, the best defensive winger ever, whatever people consider the Sedins. The best two way captain ever, yet they have never won anything.

 

[MS]

No he wasn't. Burrows was above average at best.

What an absolutely horrific take which shows that you either don't understand hockey or never watched Burrows play, or both.

For the record, the Selke voters did put him 1st and 2nd amongst wingers in Selke voting in his prime, so this should not really be a controversial claim.

It's funny how the canucks had the best goalscorer ever, the best defensive winger ever, whatever people consider the Sedins. The best two way captain ever, yet they have never won anything.

I've never seen a Canuck fan claim any single one of these things, or anything close.

And the Canucks were the winningest team in the NHL from 2008-2012 so yes, I'd expect that they had some of the best players in the NHL in their roles over that time.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

A lot of it is about situational awareness, hockey IQ and anticipation.

Is their best player on the ice? Is he free and available? The top scorers have a knack for separating themselves from coverage at the best possible time - a split second, they are free by the net, and it's in. Knowing what play is developing and getting into the correct position to mitigate or prevent the play from happening is important.

A good defensive forward manages to keep up with their assignments relentlessly, and generate turnovers either through physical interception or an active stick, and do it without taking a penalty.

In the offensive zone or neutral zone, a good defensive forward is positioned to intercept passes, break up rushes, and steal pucks or generate turnovers on defencemen, but reads the play well enough not to get caught too far up the ice and is able to track down opposing rushing forwards and keep track of trailers who enter the zone belatedly.

They are able to recognize when a defenceman is pinching and instantly ensure that the blueline is covered in their absence. They communicate with their teammates and are able to switch checking assignments smoothly and without leaving anyone open.

They don't coast back when the other team has the puck, rather they identify a possible threat and rapidly get within checking distance or they follow-up to provide odd-man support to the defence.

They use their active stick to extend their zone of influence and force opposing players into less than advantageous positions, passes or shooting opportunities.

They demonstrate a willingness to block shots when called upon, and do so efficiently and effectively and without taking themselves out of the play entirely (e.g. sliding across the ice unnecessarily).

They are able to pin or impede the opposition along the boards without taking obstruction penalties. They are willing and able to battle physically for the puck.

When they do have the puck, they manage the puck carefully, avoiding turnovers through missed or blind passes and avoid casual dump-ins right to the opposition. They avoid putting the puck in dangerous areas like up the middle of the ice. They are able to buy themselves time if pressed, as opposed to blindly getting rid of it and risking a dangerous opportunity against. They clear the puck efficiently when needed with sufficient strength to allow a line change but avoid icing it or putting it over the glass. Or they simply skate or pass the puck out of danger but without turning it over.

Faceoff ability is an easy stat to count that people now ascribe to good defence, but it's really sort of its own skillset entirely. Penalty killing is another ability that some people equate to good defence but I also think of it as its own skillset.

Wingers tend to have more consistent responsibilities in certain areas of the ice whereas centres have to recognize where they are needed at the time. It could be coverage, it could be assisting with a puck battle, it could be virtually anywhere on the ice so it really requires an extra level of anticipation and understanding of where the play is developing.

my simple way of thinking about a lot of the stuff you spell out with more nuance in the middle of this post is how much ice a guy can cover. through a combination of speed, anticipation and positioning, stick in passing lanes, shotblocking ability, ability to recover, and ability to win puck battles, elite defensive forwards can neutralize large amounts of the ice surface, or multiple players at the same time.

 

[Gorskyontario]

What an absolutely horrific take which shows that you either don't understand hockey or never watched Burrows play, or both.

I saw Burrows get completely dominated in the 2011 finals and be completely useless. Then useless the next year when they lost in the first round as presidents trophy winners in 5 games.

I remember him for biting Patrice Bergeron.