Best case for Hall of Fame | Quick , Hellebuyck

[Fantomas]

Theres a world full of idiots that think a numerical value can be placed on everything. Its pretty amusing in a tired sort of way

You're not imparting any wisdom here. Just smugly attacking a straw man.

Ironically, stats (what you call "numerical value") are what is being used to prop up Quick's HOF case: his 400 wins and good-looking career GAA and save percentage. But when one looks more closely (and contextually) at the numbers his case is much weaker than at first seems.

 

[chris kontos]

You're not imparting any wisdom here. Just smugly attacking a straw man.

Ironically, stats (what you call "numerical value") are what is being used to prop up Quick's HOF case: his 400 wins and good-looking career GAA and save percentage. But when one looks more closely (and contextually) at the numbers his case is much weaker than at first seems.

Numerically quantify wisdom for us, sport.

 

[Nasti]

If we have to constantly hear about Fleury winning 3 cups when he only played half the games combined, then we’re going to be talking about Quick winning 3 cups when he actually played through two of them completely.

 

[Fantomas]

Numerically quantify wisdom for us, sport.

It will be okay

 

[abax44]

Quick’s career has been Hall of Fame worthy for some time now. He could’ve retired a few years ago and he’d be going in.

Hellebuyck will likely get in some day too but he’s got some time to build up his resume.

Hellebuyck could probably retire after this season and get in too (assuming a 3rd and back to back Vezinas).

 

[Pablo El Perro]

I don't think Quick is Hall of Fame worthy tbh.

Vernon is a Hofer.

 

[wetcoast]

Yeah I think Hellebuyck has to simply not die in this year's playoffs to be a lock

If he has a choke-worthy year, it's questionable, but still tough to keep him out on compiling regular season stats alone.

Quick has some rough regular seasons but the Hall is built strongly on narrative and he's got a TON of it

Helly is a lock already as he sim;y has too good of a regualr season resume.

Really?

You don't think THREE cups, a Conn Smythe, and over 100 more freaking wins is a big deal?

Come on. I love Hellebuyck but that is selling Quick extremely short, especially given his legacy isn't even built on regular seasons.

Quick only has 2 SC's, his name might be engraved on the Vegas team but he didn't play a single minute that post season.

And to add so far the winningest american goalie with the most shutouts. Let's let Connor Hellebuyck pass that first even, since that's "just" compiling stuff on a good team. (and he should unless he just stalls out).

Yet Helly at 31 has 8 seasons top 10 in shutouts and Quick has 6, so I wouldn't be so quick to give Jonathan the edge there.

Both guys are HHOFers right now and even if one thinks Quick is better all time, Helly is closing in fast.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Helly is a lock already as he sim;y has too good of a regualr season resume.


Quick only has 2 SC's, his name might be engraved on the Vegas team but he didn't play a single minute that post season.


Yet Helly at 31 has 8 seasons top 10 in shutouts and Quick has 6, so I wouldn't be so quick to give Jonathan the edge there.

Both guys are HHOFers right now and even if one thinks Quick is better all time, Helly is closing in fast.

I don't disagree with any of that. Or I do, but it's splitting hairs.

You'll notice the post I quoted is equating Quick to Holtby rather than Helly

 

[JKG33]

Quick only has 2 SC's, his name might be engraved on the Vegas team but he didn't play a single minute that post season.

That sure is a lot of words to say Quick has 3 Stanley Cups

 

[Kresnik]

Vernon is a Hofer.

Jonathan Quick has basically been outplayed statistically by his teammate every season for his whole career. Quick is overrated and don't belong in HoF, end of story.

 

[Frolov 6'3]

You're not imparting any wisdom here. Just smugly attacking a straw man.

Ironically, stats (what you call "numerical value") are what is being used to prop up Quick's HOF case: his 400 wins and good-looking career GAA and save percentage. But when one looks more closely (and contextually) at the numbers his case is much weaker than at first seems.

There is no arguing about matters of taste, thats personal.

Problem is you completely ignore many things. Quick played for a defensively team for a whole decade. That gave him many wins and a low GAA but also very few shots against (SV %). Same with New Jersey and Brodeur who “only” had three seasons above .920 sv%.

You just checked hockeydb and said Quick had one great season. Than you checked again and saw one more .920 season and edited your post into two great seasons.

His playoff run in 2012 was actually not as good as in 2013. In 2014 he was elite again but the 1st round vs. San José was a slaugh fest. However hockeydb & Conn Smythe told you that 2012 was his only great playoff run.

You solely base your opinion on statistics on hockey sites. Thats extremely visible. Just admit you are not a fan because that makes more sense.

 

[wetcoast]

That sure is a lot of words to say Quick has 3 Stanley Cups

Why would anyone give credit to any player for a team trophy when they didn't okay a single minute?

But I guess it's HF Boards so in the future if Helly were to win 2 SCs some would agree but Quick has 3 right?

 

[Fantomas]

There is no arguing about matters of taste, thats personal.

Problem is you completely ignore many things. Quick played for a defensively team for a whole decade. That gave him many wins and a low GAA but also very few shots against (SV %). Same with New Jersey and Brodeur who “only” had three seasons above .920 sv%.

You just checked hockeydb and said Quick had one great season. Than you checked again and saw one more .920 season and edited your post into two great seasons.

His playoff run in 2012 was actually not as good as in 2013. In 2014 he was elite again but the 1st round vs. San José was a slaugh fest. However hockeydb & Conn Smythe told you that 2012 was his only great playoff run.

You solely base your opinion on statistics on hockey sites. Thats extremely visible. Just admit you are not a fan because that makes more sense.

Mate, I wasn't even talking about save percentage. You may want to re-read what I posted.

Brodeur has elite numbers by any metric. Quick doesn't.

 

[Fantomas]

Vernon is a Hofer.

Plenty of guys in the Hall who shouldn't be there and Vernon was a terrible regular season goalie. But you have to give Vernon credit: two elite Stanley Cup runs is pretty rare stuff.

 

[JKG33]

Why would anyone give credit to any player for a team trophy when they didn't okay a single minute?

But I guess it's HF Boards so in the future if Helly were to win 2 SCs some would agree but Quick has 3 right?

That's even more words to say he has 3 cups

 

[Frolov 6'3]

Mate, I wasn't even talking about save percentage. You may want to re-read what I posted.

I read what you wrote.

“Decent” in most regular seasons
Basically a below average goalie in the regular season
‘one” great playoff run.

I will keep it at this, because its a waste of time actually.

Quick did have one amazing playoff run. In the other one his GSAA was below average (-2.3), which means his team won in spite of him. Quick's legacy is all about one season: 2011-12. Heck of a season. He was also quite solid in 2017-18. Otherwise decent-to-bad in most years. Quick had one magical year in 2011-12, when he just lost out on a Vezina, with a GSAA of 28.1. However his career GSAA is 17.9, which means that outside of that one year he's been basically a below-league-average goalie.

 

[Fantomas]

I read what you wrote.

“Decent” in most regular seasons
Basically a below average goalie in the regular season
‘one” great playoff run.

Yes, and I'm correct about all these points.

You response was to say something about me getting data from hockeydb (which doesn't even provide GSAA info). You're really out of your realm on this.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I think the thing is

For a guy who people have spent his whole career tearing down his regular season performances

He has pretty much the exact same reg season #s as Fleury, who everyone wants to consider a lock

AND despite all that, he's the winningest american goalie of all time with the shutout record...he's likely to finish top 15 in goalie games played and has better #s in all statistical categories than almost anyone ahead of him

He's a more unique case than many of those guys but I think you have to argue him out rather than argue him in and the only argument is bawww a few bad regular seasons (of which several were coming off major surgeries, the guy won a cup requiring back surgery bad enough that he was laying down in the aisle on flights).

There's an easy argument that his save % #s are artificially deflated too but we have seen over the years people are too dug in to have that conversation honestly. I just think in the end there's narrative on his side as well and no one who has had to face him in the playoffs will suggest he's anything but a future HoFer.

If Quick spends his entire career in a spotlight market rather than LA this isn't even a discussion

 

[FlyguyOX]

Both

 

[MiscBrah]

Assuming Hellebuyck wins the Vezina this year he is a no-doubt 100% lock.

Quick will probably get in eventually but I don't love putting a guy with no Vezina in the hall. Just for a reference, here's Quick compared to a guy that does not really get any HoF consideration at all:

Quick - 403 wins, career .911, 2 time Vezina finalist, Smythe, 3 Cups, .921 playoff sv%, ~11 years as a starter
Holtby - 299 wins, career .915, 2 time Vezina finalist, 1 time Vezina winner, 1 Cup, .926 playoff sv%, regular season wins in a single season record, ~7 years as a starter

I think Quick's resume is better, but not that much better.

100+ more wins, 2 more cups isn't much better? How many more games would he have had to have won or cups does he need to make it much better?

 

[qcal1427]

100+ more wins, 2 more cups isn't much better? How many more games would he have had to have won or cups does he need to make it much better?

2 more cups and 100+ more wins (albeit in ~280 more games played) are significant but also are fundamentally team achievements.

I should've worded my original post better, I think Quick is a tier above someone like Holtby. My point is that he's maybe closer to those kinds of guys than you would think and certainly IMO closer to them than to Hellebuyck.

He has pretty much the exact same reg season #s as Fleury, who everyone wants to consider a lock

A lot of people think that Fleury should not be a lock

If Quick spends his entire career in a spotlight market rather than LA this isn't even a discussion

Alright you can do this about guys who play in Carolina or Columbus but not LA ...

 

[wetcoast]

That's even more words to say he has 3 cups

Okay I guess you will be one of the guys doing the 3 Sc thing like it's meaningful or something.

 

[JKG33]

Okay I guess you will be one of the guys doing the 3 Sc thing like it's meaningful or something.

Lotta words. Three cups.

 

[End on a Hinote]

Quick AINEC

His two Cups and Conn Smythe put him miles ahead of Helly.

 

[wetcoast]

I think the thing is

For a guy who people have spent his whole career tearing down his regular season performances

He has pretty much the exact same reg season #s as Fleury, who everyone wants to consider a lock

I get what you are saying but MAF has 170 more wins than Quick and Quick has a more HHOF career (MAF probably wasn't even on the HHOF radar until he was left unprotected by Pittsburg and became a Knight)

AND despite all that, he's the winningest american goalie of all time with the shutout record...he's likely to finish top 15 in goalie games played and has better #s in all statistical categories than almost anyone ahead of him

He's a more unique case than many of those guys but I think you have to argue him out rather than argue him in and the only argument is bawww a few bad regular seasons (of which several were coming off major surgeries, the guy won a cup requiring back surgery bad enough that he was laying down in the aisle on flights).

There's an easy argument that his save % #s are artificially deflated too but we have seen over the years people are too dug in to have that conversation honestly. I just think in the end there's narrative on his side as well and no one who has had to face him in the playoffs will suggest he's anything but a future HoFer.

If Quick spends his entire career in a spotlight market rather than LA this isn't even a discussion

LA became a spotlight market after the Gretzky trade, it's not Columbus or Winnipeg.

I do get that it's a west coast thing, as are my Canucks, but that's a different argument.