BCHL adding 5 Alberta teams

[Corso]

For now the top kids will still likely keep going to the WHL but what will it do for the level of competition if "super junior A" starts taking players who might have been lower tier players in the WHL? You can only lose so many bottom six forwards before the quality of play starts to deteriorate.

It's hard to imagine that the WHL won't feel this to at least some extent.



I would think that a more fragmented hockey landscape is going to hurt development, at least in the short term.

I can see the WHL losing more depth-type players who choose to stay at home in BC/AB. I can see traditional Jr. A losing its top players who want a more competitive environment but don't necessarily want the WHL.

Eventually things will settle down but there will be a lot of upheaval over the next few years. I wonder if any eastern Jr. A teams will follow suit with their own regional super Junior A in that part of Canada?

This move is as much as a shot across the bow of the USHL as it is to the WHL. The BCHL power brokers could not understand why transfer cards were granted to U-18 Canadian born hockey players (Fantili, Power among others) to play in the USHL but not given to the various out of province domestic leagues and hence the divorce from Hockey Canada.

The BCHL knows that there is a core group of high end Canadian talent that will always choose the NCAA path and they want to be the league that those players choose to play in as opposed to the USHL. So adding the best AJHL programs is a step in the right direction in the forming of Canadian Tier 1 model but they will have to begin acting as a Tier 1 league and the question of finances comes into play.

The USHL is successful because they cover the full cost of attendance. All travel expenses, meal plans, billet fees and equipment are covered by the respective teams. Players bear no cost for playing in the USHL and have access to trainers, medical officials and exercise/strength and conditioning coaches. Furthermore the USHL has a minimum requirement for facilities and arena capacities. This of course all costs significant money and I know for a fact that there are a couple of USHL teams struggling to meet all of their obligations to the players.

So if the BCHL is serious about being the Canadian answer to the USHL then how do they finacially propose to do this. The vast majority of the teams (including all the new AJHL ones) average far less than 2000 paying fans a game. Sure some of the larger centers like Pentiction, Chiiliwak and maybe Vernon have the finanial wherewithall when combining attendance with sponsorship monies but how would a a team like Merrit find the operating cash to provide for an all expense paid experience to it's players??

I think that this story is far from over and that you may well see a number of the smaller market teams flee the BCHL back to a Hockey Canada sanctioned league while the BCHL morphs into a 12-15 team league split into two conferences spanning B.C. and Alberta....but the finances will have to work.

 

[WarriorofTime]

So if the BCHL is serious about being the Canadian answer to the USHL then how do they finacially propose to do this. The vast majority of the teams (including all the new AJHL ones) average far less than 2000 paying fans a game. Sure some of the larger centers like Pentiction, Chiiliwak and maybe Vernon have the finanial wherewithall when combining attendance with sponsorship monies but how would a a team like Merrit find the operating cash to provide for an all expense paid experience to it's players??

I think that this story is far from over and that you may well see a number of the smaller market teams flee the BCHL back to a Hockey Canada sanctioned league while the BCHL morphs into a 12-15 team league split into two conferences spanning B.C. and Alberta....but the finances will have to work.

They'll likely kick/push out out the runts of the litter and they'll either fold or go to Junior B (or fake Junior A if that's what the Kootenay International Junior Hockey League, the Pacific Junior Hockey League, and the Vancouver Island Junior Hockey League call themselves now)

 

[Umingmak]

I didn't read every post in the thread, so I'm not sure if this was pointed out, but Brooks or Spruce Grove has won the championship every single season since 2010. This is an enormous loss for the AJHL - possibly league-killing.

As a former Spruce Grove resident now living in BC, I'm excited to watch them play out here.

 

[landy92mack29]

That's just simply not true. In recent time the most high profile are Newhook and Nadeau. There's a few prep US guys in the league but it's unlikely they will ever make the NHL.


CURRENT TEAM PLAYER BCHL TEAM YEARS
Anaheim Ducks Derek Grant Langley Chiefs 2007-2009
Arizona Coyotes Andrew Ladd Coquitlam Express 2002-2003
Arizona Coyotes Troy Stecher Penticton Vees 2010-2013
Boston Bruins Mike Reilly Penticton Vees 2011-2012
Calgary Flames Milan Lucic Coquitlam Express 2004-2005
Chicago Blackhawks Jujhar Khaira Prince George Spruce Kings 2010-2012
Colorado Avalanche Josh Manson Salmon Arm Silverbacks 2009-2011
Colorado Avalanche Alex Newhook Victoria grizzlies 2017-2019
Colorado Avalanche Devon Toews Surrey Eagles 2011-2013
Columbus Blue Jackets Kent Johnson Trail Smoke Eaters 2018-2020
Dallas Stars Jamie Benn Victoria Grizzlies 2006-2007
Minnesota Wild Brandon Duhaime Merritt Centennials 2014-2015
Minnesota Wild Tyson Jost Penticton Vees 2014-2016
Montreal Canadiens Carey Price Quesnel Millionaires 2002-2003
Nashville Predators Dante Fabbro Penticton Vees 2014-2016
Nashville Predators Ryan Johansen Penticton Vees 2008-2009
Nashville Predators Colton Sissons Westside Warriors 2009-2010
Pittsburgh Penguins Danton Heinen Surrey Eagles 2013-2014
Seattle Kraken Justin Schultz Westside Warriors 2007-2009
Seattle Kraken Brandon Tanev Surrey Eagles 2011-2012
Toronto Maple Leafs Jordie Benn Victoria Grizzlies 2005-2008
Toronto Maple Leafs Alex Kerfoot Coquitlam Express 2011-2013
Washington Capitals Matt Irwin Nanaimo Clippers 2005-2008

The vast majority of these guys are BC guys or Westerners.

I said new talent which means since they left Hockey Canada which was just last year not historically, it's a entirely new league now a day. When you look at the top teams rosters most aren't BC kids

 

[MeHateHe]

Bill Hunter had honest reasons for wanting to go the WHL route as he felt it would improve their chances of winning Memorial Cups.

I don't generally believe in white hats or black hats, so I suspect that while Bill Hunter may have been motivated by improving his hockey club, I also think he saw that as a way to make sure he made some money along the way. I don't begrudge that, in the same way I don't begrudge the fact that BCHL teams want to get better and make more money.

I'm primarily a believer in evolution as opposed to revolution, because the latter tends to lead to chaos and destruction while the former allows for more to benefit. I'm also alive to the fact, as I said earlier, that what the BCHL - and these five Alberta clubs now - is doing is going to come at the cost of other teams and likely a lot of players along the way.

 

[WarriorofTime]

at the cost of other teams and likely a lot of players along the way.

With the demographic/birth rate trends in Canada, I really don't see all these Junior B/Junior C teams across the country surviving the next 20 years. It just doesn't make sense to be pay to play for 19 year olds who have reached their limit and are dead-end at that point. I don't think the numbers will support them going forward. A bit of consolidation is likely a good thing and that starts higher up the pyramid amongst players with college hockey potential at NCAA or USports.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Bill Hunter had honest reasons for wanting to go the WHL route as he felt it would improve their chances of winning Memorial Cups.

The BCHL reason is all the Makar money they can make from the draft. That they are pillaging other leagues for ready-made teams and players is a sign that they want a profit out of this.

What do you mean by "Makar money"? This conjures up images of Euro-soccer-style transfer fees.

Just as an aside I always found it funny that the Flin Flon Bombers, technically located in Manitoba, were in the SJHL (even though Flin Flon is right on the border with Creighton, SK).

From what I vaguely recall hearing, I think it boiled down in large part due to disputes over travel costs. The Brandon Wheat Kings were in the SJHL at one point too back in the 60s due to travel cost issues.

 

[MeHateHe]

The BCHL knows that there is a core group of high end Canadian talent that will always choose the NCAA path and they want to be the league that those players choose to play in as opposed to the USHL. So adding the best AJHL programs is a step in the right direction in the forming of Canadian Tier 1 model but they will have to begin acting as a Tier 1 league and the question of finances comes into play.

When the BCHL first split off, I surmised that when the dust settles, you're going to see teams like Chilliwack, Penticton, Vernon, Salmon Arm, maybe Victoria, maybe Nanaimo, maybe Surrey maybe Coquitlam maybe Cowichan Valley stick around as "Tier 1" teams and everyone else fall by the wayside. Langley, Prince George and West Kelowna get squeezed out by the WHL, Powell River becomes a victim of travel. Cranbrook, Trail, Merritt, Alberni Valley are too small to draw the kinds of crowds necessary, the last two have challenged economic bases to boot.

Such an elite Junior A league (adding in 5-8 Alberta teams) might have a benefit over the USHL because travel is not quite as restrictive, but how do fans in Okotoks or Brooks or Penticton or Vernon react when suddenly they become a middling team in that elite league? Someone has to lose. Again, smaller communities will support a team of loveable locals if they lose but a band of mercenaries aren't as sympathetic characters.

But agreed, there are more shoes to drop. I wonder what kind of conference call the remaining AJHL governors had today. For that matter, I wonder what kind of conference call the BCHL governors had today.

 

[jetsmooseice]

With the demographic/birth rate trends in Canada, I really don't see all these Junior B/Junior C teams across the country surviving the next 20 years. It just doesn't make sense to be pay to play for 19 year olds who have reached their limit and are dead-end at that point. I don't think the numbers will support them going forward. A bit of consolidation is likely a good thing and that starts higher up the pyramid amongst players with college hockey potential at NCAA or USports.

So where do these kids play? There are still a lot of teenagers who probably aren't ready to hang up the skates at 17 or whatever. Are we just going to see growth in lower level Junior leagues (jr. B, jr. c) as extensions of minor hockey? Maybe a senior hockey comeback?

 

[Bubbles]

This move is as much as a shot across the bow of the USHL as it is to the WHL. The BCHL power brokers could not understand why transfer cards were granted to U-18 Canadian born hockey players (Fantili, Power among others) to play in the USHL but not given to the various out of province domestic leagues and hence the divorce from Hockey Canada.

The BCHL knows that there is a core group of high end Canadian talent that will always choose the NCAA path and they want to be the league that those players choose to play in as opposed to the USHL. So adding the best AJHL programs is a step in the right direction in the forming of Canadian Tier 1 model but they will have to begin acting as a Tier 1 league and the question of finances comes into play.

The USHL is successful because they cover the full cost of attendance. All travel expenses, meal plans, billet fees and equipment are covered by the respective teams. Players bear no cost for playing in the USHL and have access to trainers, medical officials and exercise/strength and conditioning coaches. Furthermore the USHL has a minimum requirement for facilities and arena capacities. This of course all costs significant money and I know for a fact that there are a couple of USHL teams struggling to meet all of their obligations to the players.

So if the BCHL is serious about being the Canadian answer to the USHL then how do they finacially propose to do this. The vast majority of the teams (including all the new AJHL ones) average far less than 2000 paying fans a game. Sure some of the larger centers like Pentiction, Chiiliwak and maybe Vernon have the finanial wherewithall when combining attendance with sponsorship monies but how would a a team like Merrit find the operating cash to provide for an all expense paid experience to it's players??

I think that this story is far from over and that you may well see a number of the smaller market teams flee the BCHL back to a Hockey Canada sanctioned league while the BCHL morphs into a 12-15 team league split into two conferences spanning B.C. and Alberta....but the finances will have to work.

All of these points are very good. I agree that some of the smaller BCHL teams will not be able to financially do this or even travel to Alberta to fit 3 games in a weekend. I'm from the Lower Mainland and Langley's team is a glorified curling rink. They averaged less than 500 a game last year.

The Lower Mainland sucks in terms of junior hockey support. Surrey, Coquitlam and Langley are always amongst the lowest in attendance, there's simply too much entertainment options.

I only see one team in the USHL that's a game changer is the Chicago Steel. They have pro level coaching, facilities and now backed by the same ownership as the Blackhawks. They've now attracted Power, Fantilli and Celebrini to their team. Think about that for a second, they've managed to recruit a 1st, 2nd and upcoming 1st overall pick.

And they would have had Misa too had they not given him ES. But HC continues to sit on their hands. At least the BCHL is doing something about it.

 

[Bubbles]

When the BCHL first split off, I surmised that when the dust settles, you're going to see teams like Chilliwack, Penticton, Vernon, Salmon Arm, maybe Victoria, maybe Nanaimo, maybe Surrey maybe Coquitlam maybe Cowichan Valley stick around as "Tier 1" teams and everyone else fall by the wayside. Langley, Prince George and West Kelowna get squeezed out by the WHL, Powell River becomes a victim of travel. Cranbrook, Trail, Merritt, Alberni Valley are too small to draw the kinds of crowds necessary, the last two have challenged economic bases to boot.

BCHL 2022-23 team attendance at hockeydb.com

Cranbrook and Trail are two the top teams in attendance. And Trail has a lot of history.

Surrey, Langley and Coquitlam are some of the worst supported teams in the league. I've been to Eagles games and it's a great facility but I could go outside and talk to 100 people and they would have no idea what I'm talking about. Junior hockey is not well supported in the LM.

 

[WarriorofTime]

So where do these kids play? There are still a lot of teenagers who probably aren't ready to hang up the skates at 17 or whatever. Are we just going to see growth in lower level Junior leagues (jr. B, jr. c) as extensions of minor hockey? Maybe a senior hockey comeback?

That's more so my point, there just won't be that many of the "not ready to hang up the skates" players around to sustain those sort of leagues. Of course there will be some, but they will be more consolidated, remainders that would have done that in a previous generation will switch to less serious hockey younger.

 

[jetsmooseice]

BCHL 2022-23 team attendance at hockeydb.com

Cranbrook and Trail are two the top teams in attendance. And Trail has a lot of history.

Surrey, Langley and Coquitlam are some of the worst supported teams in the league. I've been to Eagles games and it's a great facility but I could go outside and talk to 100 people and they would have no idea what I'm talking about. Junior hockey is not well supported in the LM.

Those numbers are wild. A quarter of the league has WHL-calibre attendance. Even the lowest ranked teams average numbers that few MJHL teams ever see. It's impressive how well supported the BCHL is on the whole. And good for them, that gives them the freedom to write their own ticket.

 

[Bubbles]

I said new talent which means since they left Hockey Canada which was just last year not historically, it's a entirely new league now a day. When you look at the top teams rosters most aren't BC kids

Yes I follow the BCHL so this year has definitely been a change. In fact this year is pretty crap as a drafting class, there may only be a handful drafted from the league, and nobody in the first 3 rounds. And the league has gotten older and seems more like a 19-20 year league now.

 

[MeHateHe]

BCHL 2022-23 team attendance at hockeydb.com

Cranbrook and Trail are two the top teams in attendance. And Trail has a lot of history.

Surrey, Langley and Coquitlam are some of the worst supported teams in the league. I've been to Eagles games and it's a great facility but I could go outside and talk to 100 people and they would have no idea what I'm talking about. Junior hockey is not well supported in the LM.

The only reason I suggested Surrey and Coquitlam (and in the maybe category) is because they have more opportunities for corporate sponsorship, which can offset poor gate revenue. Cranbrook, on the other hand, their numbers could be an illusion since the club is so new. Trail is one of those ones I'm on the fence on. They've got a great old rink (that place is wild when the barn is full) and Teck throws money around when metal prices are high, but it's still a pretty small town and given that they've not had a lot of success long-term, they might be one of those teams that turns into this league's version of Merritt, and fans get tired of that after a while.

End of the day, I'm guessing. The only limb I will go out on is to say that I don't think there will be 22 teams in this league next season. And in three years, that league is going to look way, way different than it does at the beginning of 2024-2025.

Yes I follow the BCHL so this year has definitely been a change. In fact this year is pretty crap as a drafting class, there may only be a handful drafted from the league, and nobody in the first 3 rounds. And the league has gotten older and seems more like a 19-20 year league now.

Which is interesting because Steve Ewen in the Province said that scouts told him that there hasn't been a decline in the number of players wanting to come to the league since it left Hockey Canada.

 

[mk80]

More questions than answers in this

 

[WarriorofTime]

Sounds like a walkback lol. Probably got threatened with legal action and now have less bark.

 

[hockeykid87]

Curious to hear other's thoughts. I mentioned in another thread that I didn't believe this BCHL/AJHL league will ever attract an elite, elite-level player (Celebrini, McKenna etc) because whether the BCHL wants to admit it or not, those kids really care about representing Hockey Canada. U17's is their first chance in their 16-year-old season, and then Hlinka-Gretzky/U18's before and after their second junior season.

Does anyone else feel the same way I do? I have a hard time believing the next hot-shot prospect will forgo those events to play in this league and go the NCAA route. If they are dead set on going to the NCAA, I believe they would much more likely go to the USHL because of that reason.

 

[Bubbles]

Curious to hear other's thoughts. I mentioned in another thread that I didn't believe this BCHL/AJHL league will ever attract an elite, elite-level player (Celebrini, McKenna etc) because whether the BCHL wants to admit it or not, those kids really care about representing Hockey Canada. U17's is their first chance in their 16-year-old season, and then Hlinka-Gretzky/U18's before and after their second junior season.

Does anyone else feel the same way I do? I have a hard time believing the next hot-shot prospect will forgo those events to play in this league and go the NCAA route. If they are dead set on going to the NCAA, I believe they would much more likely go to the USHL because of that reason.

That's not the intention of the new league as the BCHL never attracted the top top guys anyways.

Those guys are being scooped by the Steel and no team in the BCHL will ever have the resources they have.

In terms of representation of Canada, I don't think it's a huge deal. They would be more interested in securing a NCAA scholarship instead. And most are representing Canada after they leave the league.

 

[DoyleG]

Sounds like a walkback lol. Probably got threatened with legal action and now have less bark.

Games are still cancelled. Kodiaks and Bobcats already have announced this.

 

[DoyleG]

What do you mean by "Makar money"? This conjures up images of Euro-soccer-style transfer fees.

“When Cale Makar went to the NHL, he was a fourth overall draft pick and that was a huge boost to the league, but the Brooks Bandits didn’t get any sort of development fee as sort of an award,” Escott said.

Future of AJHL in question after 5 teams join BCHL | Globalnews.ca

The BCHL confirms at least five Alberta Junior Hockey League (AJHL) teams will join the BC league next season.

globalnews.ca

 

[Tilden Katz]

“When Cale Makar went to the NHL, he was a fourth overall draft pick and that was a huge boost to the league, but the Brooks Bandits didn’t get any sort of development fee as sort of an award,” Escott said.

Future of AJHL in question after 5 teams join BCHL | Globalnews.ca

The BCHL confirms at least five Alberta Junior Hockey League (AJHL) teams will join the BC league next season.

globalnews.ca

Can anyone elaborate on development fees within HC and JrA? Tried googling but only found some fairly old guides.

Do CHL teams get fees when players are drafted?

 

[DoyleG]

So if the BCHL is serious about being the Canadian answer to the USHL then how do they finacially propose to do this. The vast majority of the teams (including all the new AJHL ones) average far less than 2000 paying fans a game. Sure some of the larger centers like Pentiction, Chiiliwak and maybe Vernon have the finanial wherewithall when combining attendance with sponsorship monies but how would a a team like Merrit find the operating cash to provide for an all expense paid experience to it's players??

I think that this story is far from over and that you may well see a number of the smaller market teams flee the BCHL back to a Hockey Canada sanctioned league while the BCHL morphs into a 12-15 team league split into two conferences spanning B.C. and Alberta....but the finances will have to work.

It's hard to figure out that is going to work given that even the best-attended teams charge no more than $20/ticket for games. Even with that, they still struggle in the markets that they need to make it look attractive.

Even with the AJHL teams, they get much more. Brooks is the only one that can draw over 1,000 on a regular basis. Sherwood Park struggles to get above 500.

 

[BobColesNasalCavity]

The reason why the AJHL are the villians here is because they are punishing the teams for something that hasn't occured yet. They are stripping 100+ kids of eligibility for something that's been announced but hasn't occured. It's a very heavy handed response and one that's going to be challenged in court.

Stop calling them kids they’re mostly adults!!!!

 

[Bubbles]

Can anyone elaborate on development fees within HC and JrA? Tried googling but only found some fairly old guides.

Do CHL teams get fees when players are drafted?

Exact numbers I don't have, that might be in the 35 page report the BCHL gave to HC. But what is known is that they are given much less than CHL teams.

Here is a quote from 2021.

There is also a significant sum of grant money involved; the NHL is responsible for a big part of the CHL budget. The NHL agreed to pay the CHL a total of $12.6 million in grants for the 2019-20 season, according to a copy of the agreement. Teams are also required to pay $60,000 for skaters and $75,000 for goaltenders who are eligible to return to junior but remain in the NHL. - Frank Seravalli, TSN.ca, Mar. 18, 2021