Battle between PWHPA, CWHL, and NWHL

[Ernie]

My take: the NHL sponsoring a limited geographically concentrated women's league would cost a relative pittance. The league has a huge female following already and the more that young female fans see people like them playing the more engaged they'll be with the sport, particularly if they do some crossover promotions.

However, I can see why the NHL is not engaging with the NWHL. Investors funded the startup costs for the league and now want to be paid back. The NHL doesn't want its money going to that.

 

[joelef]

My take: the NHL sponsoring a limited geographically concentrated women's league would cost a relative pittance. The league has a huge female following already and the more that young female fans see people like them playing the more engaged they'll be with the sport, particularly if they do some crossover promotions.

However, I can see why the NHL is not engaging with the NWHL. Investors funded the startup costs for the league and now want to be paid back. The NHL doesn't want its money going to that.

woman dont watch woman sports.

 

[Fulham]

Barstool Sports after getting into a twitter feud with some sour NWHL players threatened to create its own league. Honestly if they did it would succeed just based on internet culture, and memes.

 

[tornadowarning33]

It's completely a disease of our culture. Not very many generations ago, you had to find work that actually produced something, and your paycheck somehow reflected the measure in which you helped that product to have value. Sports grew out of the idea that entertainment has value, so sporting people were paid according to how much entertainment value there was in their sport in general, and in their team and/or their own performance individually. This all made logical sense.

The US women's soccer people sued for better compensation from the US soccer governing body, and they were right, actually. Because the women actually won, and international soccer is basically about 2 global tournaments (World Cup and Olympics), the women's popularity was much better than they were being compensated for. Also, in some way, that was a representation of the nation, so equal rights apply.

What has happened now is that, within the free market, there is a demand for equality regardless of the benefits which the particular person brings to the situation. Employees wish to be paid just for being there. There is not as much "pride in my work" spirit as there was a generation or two ago. So, the link between value and pay has diminished as it is viewed by society in general.

This leaves an opening for organizations like PWHPA to arise. Their line is, of course, that's is somehow not 'fair' that men can play a game and get paid, while women can't make a living doing the same thing. The expectation of 'fairness' totally ignores the market side of the equation. This would be fine in a "US Olympic Team" arrangement. It would be fine on a college campus. Neither of those are situation which require value back from entertainment customers.

However, in professional sports, the situation is NOT that of a non-profit organization. At its foundation, sports is entertainment. That means that whatever game is being played, there is no value if no one wants to watch it. People don't go to football games or basketball games thinking "I want to make a donation to the players' union." They go to be entertained. It's about the experience.

Ignoring this creates an artificial world and an artificial society.

Beam me up Scotty.....

USWNT's salary didn't follow their popularity because that's not what they collectively bargained. Not to stray from the thread topic but if you read the summary judgement from that case you understand pretty quickly that the equal pay portion of that lawsuit was really just buyer's remorse. US Soccer offered them the same pay scheme that the men had (little guaranteed money or benefits but much higher performance bonuses) but the women's team rejected it in favor of higher base pay, guaranteed health insurance and more contracted positions on the roster, which caps the earning potential for those players. They were probably pissed at themselves when they realized that they could have been swimming in cash after their most recent World Cup win, but you can't sue yourself, so...

They also had issues with equity in travel accommodations which absolutely need to be rectified, but the equal pay complaint was flimsy from the start.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6881283/Document.pdf

 

[SenSaddest]

Founder and chief stakeholder in NWHL just stepped down ...

 

[LadyStanley]

If ERA becomes law in US, could impact everything WRT men vs women sports.

 

[LeHab]

So, these women want the NHL fund and run a female League like a charity ? Because, that's what it sounds like.

I think a select few would take issue if the NHL got involved, but to fund it the way these women want is unrealistic. Sure the NBA and Euro Men's Soccer teams bleed money on their Women's Leagues, but that's not what I'd call a "sustainable" business model. Ms. Spooner in particular brings up how she trains just as hard as the men do, so she should be able just play hockey and get paid, but she overlooks that the Entertainment Industry pays based on what you bring in. As an example, NLL players work 9-5 jobs, and while the League does pay them the average salary in the NLL is around $35k USD currently - for years rookies would only make $5-8k tops. The revenue just wasn't there to pay them $35k+ at the time, and as of right now I can't see the revenue being there to support $50k wages for the women.

Lots of entitlement in the video segment, no real talk of how to actually run it aside from the NHL taking over and paying everyone salaries simply because "it's time" or the "right thing to do".

Indeed that sense of entitlement is what I also believe will keep NHL away. First ask for "living" wages" then ask for same accommodations and transport as men regardless of underlying economics. Any CBA negotiations will be hell. Just not worth the headache.

 

[cowboy82nd]

Barstool Sports after getting into a twitter feud with some sour NWHL players threatened to create its own league. Honestly if they did it would succeed just based on internet culture, and memes.

That's all it takes for a hockey league to succeed? They why hasn't anybody done this before? Because it takes more than that. I would love to see Barstool Sports have their own hockey league. Is it going to be a men league or a women's league or a mixed league? I'm curious to see this.

 

[cowboy82nd]

USWNT's salary didn't follow their popularity because that's not what they collectively bargained. Not to stray from the thread topic but if you read the summary judgement from that case you understand pretty quickly that the equal pay portion of that lawsuit was really just buyer's remorse. US Soccer offered them the same pay scheme that the men had (little guaranteed money or benefits but much higher performance bonuses) but the women's team rejected it in favor of higher base pay, guaranteed health insurance and more contracted positions on the roster, which caps the earning potential for those players. They were probably pissed at themselves when they realized that they could have been swimming in cash after their most recent World Cup win, but you can't sue yourself, so...

They also had issues with equity in travel accommodations which absolutely need to be rectified, but the equal pay complaint was flimsy from the start.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6881283/Document.pdf

Does the men team also get a professional child carer for every member of the team that has a child?

 

[Fulham]

That's all it takes for a hockey league to succeed? They why hasn't anybody done this before? Because it takes more than that. I would love to see Barstool Sports have their own hockey league. Is it going to be a men league or a women's league or a mixed league? I'm curious to see this.

They threatened to make a women's tournament style league out of spite against the NWHL, with their built in fanbase as a company it would work, it would be a gimmick, but it would be a path forward maybe. The only profitable women's sports league that im aware of is the LFL and thats all a gimmick to begin with.

 

[LadyStanley]

31 Thoughts Podcast: The State of Women’s Hockey https://player.fm/1BGQjHs

From last week

 

[Groo]

Best thing the women could do to have a league is alter the game similar to Ice Cubes 3v3 basketball. Or just do a tournament every year to generate interest by exposing people to the game, but keep costs and travel down.


They will not survive AND be self sustaining and profitable trying to be “the NHL as played by women”

AHL, ECHL, Junior leagues college etc. there’s plenty of men’s hockey ranging great quality game to cheap tickets available.

change enough so that it’s different product from NHL hockey, but still hockey.

I do not support the NHL propping up their own WNBA. I guess I’m not against it either, but I’m against the idea that they “owe” it or that they’re negatively viewed for not propping a league.


“Right to play the game” is not at all the same thing as the “right to earn a living playing a job you’d like just because you’d like it”.
There’s lower men’s leagues making $200 a week working multiple jobs... they equally “deserve” to be paid money just because they like the game.

I hope the women’s players get a regular league, and I certainly don’t mind the NHL/broadcasters help give them a platform, but funding a league is overkill.

3 on 3 is not hockey

 

[tarheelhockey]

3 on 3 is not hockey

Of course it is. 3 on 3 has existed since the beginning of the NHL.

 

[Groo]

Of course it is. 3 on 3 has existed since the beginning of the NHL.

It's a freaking gimmick. Nothing more

 

[tarheelhockey]

It's a freaking gimmick. Nothing more

Call it that if you want, but “not hockey” is simply incorrect when describing something that has been part of the game for almost its entire existence.

It’s simply being emphasized more, much like 5-on-5 and 4-on-4 were gradually incorporated as regular features of the game instead of rarities.

 

[Groo]

Call it that if you want, but “not hockey” is simply incorrect when describing something that has been part of the game for almost its entire existence.

It's fine for a pick up pond/street game when you don't have enough bodies
That's about it

 

[tarheelhockey]

It's fine for a pick up pond/street game when you don't have enough bodies
That's about it

Or when there are 2 non-coincidental penalties, which has always been the case.

Again, this has always existed as part of the game at the highest level. It was simply an exception rather than a regular feature.

 

[Groo]

Or when there are 2 non-coincidental penalties, which has always been the case.

Again, this has always existed as part of the game at the highest level. It was simply an exception rather than a regular feature.

Sure but how often do you see that?
The OT format is a joke

 

[Chips]

It's a freaking gimmick. Nothing more

Sticks, skates, pucks, and teamwork. Hockey.

 

[Groo]

Sticks, skates, pucks, and teamwork. Hockey.

Sounds more like a game of shinny