Balsillie/Phoenix part III

[Artyukhin*]

Whoever wins, many of the NHL's closed-door dealings have been made public, their formerly well-guarded constitution has been introduced as evidence by both parties, anti-trust violations have been alleged, and there are hints that the NHL may have to defend itself in front of the Canadian Competition Bureau again.

So it's unlikely the league will ever be able to return to "business as usual."

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/568107

The league's assertion that Moyes knowingly turned control over to the league through a November proxy signing appears to take a major hit in an affidavit from former Coyotes' CEO Jeff Shumway. Shumway provides copies of e-mail exchanges with David Zimmerman, NHL general counsel, in which Zimmerman apparently agrees that the 2008 proxy agreement was the same as a 2006 agreement in which, effectively, the league was not taking control of the team. Additionally, Shumway says that he ran the team just as he had been running it before the November proxy, there was no day-to-day evidence of NHL control and that he was not, as the league contends, forced out of his position by the NHL in January, but left voluntarily.

 

[eliostar]

Why can't people get this through their heads, the NHL is not going to 24 teams, it's going to 34 teams. Count on it.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

Same as in Ottawa right?
PS Melnyk is from Toronto. And the Coyotes have league ownership, something that the Jets or Nords never came close to having/

What does that matter? He can be from friggin' Belgrade - the point is that he intended to keep the team in Ottawa.

The league never took the keys to the Nords or Jets because they were financially insolvent where they were. A 60-cent dollar and a 60-year-old arena will do that. That is not the case with Phoenix. They have a good enough building with good enough revenue streams that they can eventually make money, provided they can get people through the turnstiles.

 

[Devs]

Why can't people get this through their heads, the NHL is not going to 24 teams, it's going to 34 teams. Count on it.

Where do you get a figure of 34 teams from? It makes much more sense logistically to have 32 teams, by not oversaturating a rather weak national market. Plus, it always helps to have a very large city to use as leverage in negotiations, akin to how the Penguins and Islanders used Kansas City. What justification is there, if any, for 34 teams?

Regarding the hearing today, is there any way we can get the raw proceedings, before they're sanitized by azcentral.com or TSN? Thanks.

 

[triggrman]

yeah its better to give Nashville 12 million last season and another 20 million in revenue sharing this year and let them buy there own tickets to qualify and stay in the NHL

Except the Predators never did that. They were asked if that had been considered, the answer was yes but they didn't have too the fans took care of all the tickets. They also increased their revenues last season, proving they are growing the market. Nashville is also not the only team that gets revenue sharing.

 

[Northern Dancer]

The rubber is going to hit the road really soon if several of the struggling franchises aren't allowed to move or aren't given more league backing$$. This is merely the tip of the iceberg and Bettman is fighting the same fight that the tobacco company lawyers fought for so long, knowing that it wasn't if but when. He's just trying to prevent it from happening until after he's gone...

The League has supported Yotes for most of the year and was prepared to continue that support until Moyes/Balsillie pulled a fast one. The NHL has supported many franchises through-out tough times, the most recent being Phoenix, Nashville, Pittsburgh (twice), Buffalo and Ottawa. They may even have a life line out to Tampa Bay right now.

mod edit

I am not saying everything is OK with the NHL, there are several teams struggling. The economy is in a mess. The answer is not to allow anarchy and prostitution of already well developed markets by rogue owners !!! Neither is it the right of owners to move cities on a whim !!

 

[Jonas1235]

All the sports leagues filed statements in the bankrupcy court stating that they should not set a precedent for future relocation of teams. Seems like all of the sports will support the NHL in dealing with the "bad guys".

 

[Bitterman]

Something I don't understand.

If GB effectively bought control of the Yotes for $30 Million (Just 1 years worth of losses it seems) why wouldn't Moyes immediately file for Bankruptcy protection mid-season with JB in the weeds?

I just don't understand why Moyes would sign that Proxy in the first place.

 

[Bitterman]

All the sports leagues filed statements in the bankrupcy court stating that they should not set a precedent for future relocation of teams. Seems like all of the sports will support the NHL in dealing with the "bad guys".

No league wants Anti-Trust tested in court so this display of unity is entirely expected.

 

[Fugu]

Something I don't understand.

If GB effectively bought control of the Yotes for $30 Million (Just 1 years worth of losses it seems) why wouldn't Moyes immediately file for Bankruptcy protection mid-season with JB in the weeds?

I just don't understand why Moyes would sign that Proxy in the first place.

My guess is that he wanted time. He might have believed Glendale would agree to help out, and that the league would continue to support him. I don't know if anyone knew in November just how deep the recession would be either. When he realized that he couldn't get a better deal, the NHL monies wouldn't be enough, and that none of the buyers he spoke to were interested, it was then time to cut bait. Keep in mind that he was trying to sell the team during that time.

 

[GKJ]

Unless you have CI, or watch the local Phoenix coverage, most folks only watch Phoenix when the team plays one of their favorite teams. (They were only on one Versus game this past season.)

That's not different than most of the teams in out west except Colorado. The Ducks have been on VS 4 times since they won the Cup, and NBC once (I'm talking regular season only), the Kings I think once in the same time frame (when they were in London). West = no ratings, I don't think it really has much to do beyond that, which is why I've been in favor of ESPN picking up a Western Conference-dominated package with the NHL.


What time is this hearing going down? When are going to know something?

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

I am not saying everything is OK with the NHL, there are several teams struggling. The economy is in a mess. The answer is not to allow anarchy and prostitution of already well developed markets by rogue owners !!! Neither is it the right of owners to move cities on a whim !!

IMO, if an owner can provide evidence that a team will not profitable long term in the location they currently are, then they should be able to move them to a location that they can provide evidence that it will be profitable long term.

EDIT: Hearing going down at 1pm Pacific. http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=279220

 

[Artyukhin*]

The League has supported Yotes for most of the year and was prepared to continue that support until Moyes/Balsillie pulled a fast one. The NHL has supported many franchises through-out tough times, the most recent being Phoenix, Nashville, Pittsburgh (twice), Buffalo and Ottawa. They may even have a life line out to Tampa Bay right now.

I am not saying everything is OK with the NHL, there are several teams struggling. The economy is in a mess. The answer is not to allow anarchy and prostitution of already well developed markets by rogue owners !!! Neither is it the right of owners to move cities on a whim !!

maybe why the leauge just upp'd it credit line to 200 million huh? another year in PHX cost another 40-70 million probably...cant see people flocking to the rink after this mess


one of Gary's bigger points of dodging Hamiltion is the arena is over 30 years old...well close i guess it was built in 1985 BUT nothing 150 million cant fix to house a team for another 10-15 years or less and then build a brand new one .OR if the gov't is willing to sink 130 million into COPPS hey why not go all the way on a new building .

 

[Northern Dancer]

IMO, if an owner can provide evidence that a team will not profitable long term in the location they currently are, then they should be able to move them to a location that they can provide evidence that it will be profitable long term.

EDIT: Hearing going down at 1pm Pacific. http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=279220

I have no problem with that but as long as the NHL controls the process not the owner.

ps. if Moyes thought the franchise was long term unprofitable then why did he snooker himself with an iron-cald 30 year lease?????

 

[Northern Dancer]

maybe why the leauge just upp'd it credit line to 200 million huh? another year in PHX cost another 40-70 million probably...cant see people flocking to the rink after this mess


one of Gary's bigger points of dodging Hamiltion is the arena is over 30 years old...well close i guess it was built in 1985 BUT nothing 150 million cant fix to house a team for another 10-15 years and then build a brand new one .

You are not following the issue, it is not whether Hamilton should have a team it is about who controls the process.

 

[Artyukhin*]

You are not following the issue, it is not whether Hamilton should have a team it is about who controls the process.

i am following the issue...


the process is like any old "rule" in the old schoool boys club that never been challenged often and battle tested .... it can eventually fall and we might witness it today....


the team is BLEEDING MONEY it has an offer of 212

BETTMEN who is very close FRIENDS with JERRY RIENDORF has an offer of 130 million......how isnt there a conflict of interest with Bettmen(claims to be supposed owner now) trying to promote Jerry over Jim?

 

[bishop12]

Sounds like Balsllie has zero chance of making this plan work. Too bad.

 

[Artyukhin*]

I have no problem with that but as long as the NHL controls the process not the owner.

ps. if Moyes thought the franchise was long term unprofitable then why did he snooker himself with an iron-cald 30 year lease?????

same reason people take out 25 year mortgage on house or real estate THEN end up bankrupt...id say the majority who enter lease agreement hope never to go bankrupt but the old sayin goes **** happens ....very few things in life are "iron clad" except death......


every paper contract can be broken

 

[GSC2k2*]

Something I don't understand.

If GB effectively bought control of the Yotes for $30 Million (Just 1 years worth of losses it seems) why wouldn't Moyes immediately file for Bankruptcy protection mid-season with JB in the weeds?

I just don't understand why Moyes would sign that Proxy in the first place.

The reason is that, in the documentation that he signed as part of his acquisition of the Coyotes, the proxy language was already in those documents. The only difference between the original proxies and the new proxies were that the older ones included language pertaining to "Triggering Events". The new ones did not contain such language, for a variety of reasons (including the fact, presumably, that the triggering events contemplated in the older versions had already occured, as in fact they had).

 

[Jake16]

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/hockey/2009/05/19/9497001-sun.html

Gee I wonder why. You guys like to flaunt the Coyotes losses, but huge chunks are the result of management blunder's like this. $8M a year for the coach??? when every other teams pays 1/10 of that. Properly managed the Coyotes losses are far less that Moyes experienced.

Don't get me wrong, the losses are there, but they certainly did not have to be as high as Moyes reports.

 

[MountainHawk]

same reason people take out 25 year mortgage on house or real estate THEN end up bankrupt...id say the majority who enter lease agreement hope never to go bankrupt but the old sayin goes chit happens ....very few things in life are "iron clad" except death......


every paper contract can be broken

Yeah, but if you break a contract, you usually don't get to dictate terms.

If the NHL loses this, I would expect that leagues might start looking to reorganize into a single-entity investor-operator model like the MLS has done. The MLS structure has been tested in court, and found not to be in violation of anti-trust. (This might not work as well for the NFL, because they are the only worldwide competition, but the NHL could surely do it.

Balsillie/Moyes winning this hearing today could easily be the death knell for the American 'franchise' structure of sport leagues, IMO.

 

[Artyukhin*]

Sounds like Balsllie has zero chance of making this plan work. Too bad.

i wouldnt say that to be honest.....
sure he might not get PHX BUT Bettmen still loses .

Basillie has took a spot light to the dealings of the NHL and everyone can now see what goes on ........


Jim will stand back if he cant take PHX and wait and he will come again .............Nhl regardless of a win in PHX has got exposed

 

[SyracuseBulldogs*]

Sounds like Balsllie has zero chance of making this plan work. Too bad.

The more he comes up in talks about buying teams the more I think he would be a horrible owner either because he is truly a stupid man since he can't figure out how to go about buying a team following NHL rules or he would continue to try to get around the rules in other areas (salary cap, trading deadline, signing free agents, etc.) and cause all kinds of problems.

 

[MountainHawk]

i wouldnt say that to be honest.....
sure he might not get PHX BUT Bettmen still loses .

Basillie has took a spot light to the dealings of the NHL and everyone can now see what goes on ........


Jim will stand back if he cant take PHX and wait and he will come again .............Nhl regardless of a win in PHX has got exposed

"Exposed" as a league that protects it's markets, tries to honor the commitments to the local governments that its franchises makes, and does what's best for the fans in the cities it represents.

How awful of them.

 

[Artyukhin*]

Gee I wonder why. You guys like to falunt the Coyotes losses, but ghuges chuiunkc are teh result of management blunder's like this. $8M a year for the coach??? when every other teams pays 1/10 of that. Properly managed the Coyotes losses are far less that Moyes experienced

ok so take Waynes doe outta the equation .and i dont think wayne ranked in 8 million last year did he?


Bettmen said he could get 15 million in concessions from the PHX gov't right? and guess what ? that wasnt even enough!

what i read is even if Bettmen could have gotten 24 million in concession for the Yotes they were still going to lose 4 MILLION.....



SO now with all the chos do you think season ticket sale will go thru the roof this season? I dunno i dot think so...


Then there the main problem you ticket are to cheap ...how can we fix that? its the problem