Speculation: Bad teams eventually develop a Trap Style Game...

[ottomaddox]

I dislike the term 'trap', probably for the same reason people who don't understand what it really is, like it: it sounds like something illegal, or at least morally wrong.

For them, any defensive system, or any system that stifles their offence (like a good forecheck) is called a trap, as though that means they are the good guys, who only lost because the bad guys cheated.

Neither a hard forecheck nor a defensive shell are anything like a trap, but using that name immediately makes them seem dirty.


One thing that Hyman gave the Leafs was the element of a hard forecheck on the top lines, which is missing right now. When we have the puck in the offensive zone we cycle it well, but we have trouble getting it back once we lose it.

We don't seem to have enough commitment from several forwards to execute a good defensive shell strategy.

Even a trap, which is really just a structured clogging up of the neutral zone, requires more discipline and attention to detail than several of our players display.

I can diagram the trap using text:


______F2

LD___F3_____F1

______RD

 

[notDatsyuk]

I can diagram the trap using text:


______F2

LD___F3_____F1

______RD

Assuming you have them all between the bluelines, that's about right.

Which is why people who insist the Islanders use the trap a lot, are so completely wrong. They do a bit, and do it well, but no more than most teams, and less than some.

 

[cupcrazyman]

The Trap Game.......What Was New Jersey Thinking ?

 

[Menzinger]

I dislike the term 'trap', probably for the same reason people who don't understand what it really is, like it: it sounds like something illegal, or at least morally wrong.

For them, any defensive system, or any system that stifles their offence (like a good forecheck) is called a trap, as though that means they are the good guys, who only lost because the bad guys cheated.

Neither a hard forecheck nor a defensive shell are anything like a trap, but using that name immediately makes them seem dirty.


One thing that Hyman gave the Leafs was the element of a hard forecheck on the top lines, which is missing right now. When we have the puck in the offensive zone we cycle it well, but we have trouble getting it back once we lose it.

We don't seem to have enough commitment from several forwards to execute a good defensive shell strategy.

Even a trap, which is really just a structured clogging up of the neutral zone, requires more discipline and attention to detail than several of our players display.

It's something that definitely shouldn't be thought of as immoral. Boring? Absolutely, though.

 

[Menzinger]

Also Babcock's teams Leafs teams absolutely did not deploy anything resembling a trap style defensive system

 

[ottomaddox]

Assuming you have them all between the bluelines, that's about right.

Which is why people who insist the Islanders use the trap a lot, are so completely wrong. They do a bit, and do it well, but no more than most teams, and less than some.

I tried to put little dots and lines but it didn't translate.

 

[notDatsyuk]

It's something that definitely shouldn't be thought of as immoral. Boring? Absolutely, though.

It certainly shouldn't be, but that seems to the perception some people want, or get.

Like anything, it can be boring if that's the only thing you do, which is never really the case.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Also Babcock's teams Leafs teams absolutely did not deploy anything resembling a trap style defensive system

As I said above, there are really three main defensive systems: hard forecheck (offensive zone), trap (neutral zone), and collapse (defensive zone), with a lot of variations for each.

Most teams use all of them every game, depending on the score and/or the opponent, and how well they execute each.

Leafs don't seem to do any of them particularly well.

 

[Dave92]

Keefe is a bad coach, with soft lazy players. Even if he tries it won't work.

 

[cannucky]

OK, I will bite.
What all time records did I miss, and what season are you referencing?

2017-2018 , 105 points is the most any Leafs team has ever had hence the term "all time record"

 

[ottomaddox]

 

[bbgobie]

I assume you don't believe that Dubas undermined the previous coach as he is undermining the current one with this "good cop" office chats?

So now GM is undermining all his coaches by being a good cop? lol. Yeah, we need a GM that is the biggest jerk on the planet, any player that dares walk into his office should be lashed.

 

[egd27]

So now GM is undermining all his coaches by being a good cop? lol. Yeah, we need a GM that is the biggest jerk on the planet, any player that dares walk into his office should be lashed.

It's a rather simplistic way of putting it, but yes. Don't like dad's answer, go ask mom.

Your second sentence clearly indicates you don't understand the concept of consistency and delegation of duties.

 

[BlueForever75]

A major reason is, our team brings it in, curls back and passes to the defence joining the rush 99% of the time. It’s so easy to predict.

Watch when Keefe stacks the top line and Nylander dumps it down low, Matthews, and Marner look lost

Totally agree with this. They have become a very predictable team on zone entries at even strength and PP. Teams know exactly what to do with them. Stand up at blueline and when puck is on flanks or points clog the front of the net. Its stagnate offence.

Yesterday I dont know if anyone remembers. But there was a play that Spezza had the puck in corner. No one and mean no one attacked him. He had a free lane to the net with so much time and he didnt know what to do. Ultimately he waited too long got to net and shot it wide. But its plays like this that are killing the Leafs. Always looking for the curlbacks and shots from point. Drive the net. Get some garbage goals. That and only that will open up the ice.

 

[ottomaddox]

Totally agree with this. They have become a very predictable team on zone entries at even strength and PP. Teams know exactly what to do with them. Stand up at blueline and when puck is on flanks or points clog the front of the net. Its stagnate offence.

Yesterday I dont know if anyone remembers. But there was a play that Spezza had the puck in corner. No one and mean no one attacked him. He had a free lane to the net with so much time and he didnt know what to do. Ultimately he waited too long got to net and shot it wide. But its plays like this that are killing the Leafs. Always looking for the curlbacks and shots from point. Drive the net. Get some garbage goals. That and only that will open up the ice.

Agreed, but this is what's so soul crushing: TOR has a bad coach with very little NHL experience. He's not good at coaching, and he's not a difference maker in this organization. Both Dubas / Shanny are screwed because moving Keefe shortly after an extension puts a lot heat on them. They're already feeling it as it is. A lot of us started to wonder about Keefe after the CBJ series. He really bombed vs MTL too.

 

[kevsh]

I think it's clear this team has no interest in a lockdown, trapping, grinding out style of play. I think that was part of the reason Babcock lost the room.

At their heart, this roster wants to play a high skill, speed, quick attack style that creates lots of offense and the challenge for a coach is balancing that so they're not a turnover machine that gets caught for extended periods in their own end.

Last season Keefe seemed to do a stellar job overall in that regard: They were far better in their own end, defended the cycle better and still scored at a healthy clip, but when Keefe tried to bring it down a notch in preparation for a tighter-checking playoffs seems like the team didn't like it (I'm going mostly by Spezza's comments to Keefe in All or Nothing, which I acknowledge could be interpreted a few ways, this is just my take.)

Keefe also has to find the balance between no confidence (the start of this season) and over-confidence. This team is dangerous when they feel they have to be, but when they start running up the score they need to be reeled back in.

A further concern is that they are not as fast nor as skilled overall as they were just a few seasons ago so it's going to be even tougher for them to succeed at the style that they want to play. For that, only really Dubas can fix if Keefe can't convince them of what they need to be vs. what they want to be.

 

[The Iceman]

2017-2018 , 105 points is the most any Leafs team has ever had hence the term "all time record"

Here is a useless tidbit fun fact.
Q-What was the league average for team points in 2017-18?
A-92 points

With all the 3 point games no longer is 82 points the answer when determining league average.

 

[The Podium]

The Trap Game.......What Was New Jersey Thinking ?

Those 3 cups have more to do with pre-trapezoid Brodeur than the trap. Only counter to the trap is dump and chase, but that doesnt work when you have the goalie skating into the corner and playing the puck back up ice. The NHL considering it a strategic hack that should be illegal, hence the introduction of the trapezoid and then no trap teams since its inception.

 

[The Podium]

2017-2018 , 105 points is the most any Leafs team has ever had hence the term "all time record"

The Leafs team all time record for ROW (non-shootout) is 46 in 2018-19. So unless you hold a lot of value in SO records, the 2018-19 team has the best record of all time.

 

[The Podium]

Totally agree with this. They have become a very predictable team on zone entries at even strength and PP. Teams know exactly what to do with them. Stand up at blueline and when puck is on flanks or points clog the front of the net. Its stagnate offence.

Yesterday I dont know if anyone remembers. But there was a play that Spezza had the puck in corner. No one and mean no one attacked him. He had a free lane to the net with so much time and he didnt know what to do. Ultimately he waited too long got to net and shot it wide. But its plays like this that are killing the Leafs. Always looking for the curlbacks and shots from point. Drive the net. Get some garbage goals. That and only that will open up the ice.

Last night there were a few times where the PP entry was a bit different. The wingers rang it hard behind the goal around the boards and kept in by the opposite side D. Worked well and gave them more room for the drop pass on subsequent entries because it was no longer as predictable.

Wonder if we see more of that moving forward

 

[The Iceman]

I can diagram the trap using text:


______F2

LD___F3_____F1

______RD

Isn't F1 the closest F to the opposition end or am I missing something? Why F2?

 

[Golden_Jet]

Isn't F1 the closest F to the opposition end or am I missing something? Why F2?

You’re correct

 

[ottomaddox]

Isn't F1 the closest F to the opposition end or am I missing something? Why F2?

Sorry. The opposing net would be on the right.

F1 is the closest and pivots to the puck carrier.

F2 is the left part of the neutral zone. F3 in the middle, and the RD on the right side.

 

[bbgobie]

It's a rather simplistic way of putting it, but yes. Don't like dad's answer, go ask mom.

Your second sentence clearly indicates you don't understand the concept of consistency and delegation of duties.

Maybe you assume too much.
How do you think the conversation goes?
Hey Dubie, coach wants me to play some d, and it really would make me feel down.
Dubie: yeah we don't want you to do anything that makes you uncomfortable, don't worry about d.

 

[egd27]

Maybe you assume too much.
How do you think the conversation goes?
Hey Dubie, coach wants me to play some d, and it really would make me feel down.
Dubie: yeah we don't want you to do anything that makes you uncomfortable, don't worry about d.

No, it's not nearly so simplistic, it's a much more subtle and less obvious to the unobservant eye.