Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) ‎

[Pokecheque]

The "structure" in no way shape or form causes defenseman to make bad plays.

Oh it absolutely does.

1. It causes the team to be stuck in their own zone for extended periods, increasing the likelihood of a bad play/turnover/lazy clearing attempt.
2. It increases the likelihood that a bad defensive turnover becomes an automatic scoring chance against because of the massive gaps between the D and the forwards in Roy's system.
3. It doesn't encourage good possession in any zone, meaning the team cannot sustain play in the attacking zone, still lays back way too far in the neutral zone, and still encourages shot blocking over smart, aggressive defensive zone play.

To say the structure is not lending to these mistakes "in no way shape or form" is ridiculous.

 

[Foppa2118]

Oh it absolutely does.

Absolutely it does. I'd say it accounts for by far the largest portion of stupid plays the Avs make.

Explain how structure causes Holden to whiff on a pass behind the net that results in a turnover and quick goal? How does structure cause EJ to skate into the corner and leave Neal alone in front of the net to whack in a rebound? How does structure cause Bodnarchuk to passively poke a puck sitting in the slot to a wide open Fisher for a goal instead of desperately getting it out of harms way?

How does the structure cause Barrie to react slowly off a faceoff and give up a 2 on 1? On that same play how does structure cause Holden not to see he's it's a 2 on 1 and try to step up on the puck carrier at the blueline, turning a 2 on 1 into a breakaway for Pomminville to score? How does structure cause EJ to play a 2 on 1 by skating into the corner and essentially giving Niederreiter a breakaway to cut into the middle and score? How does structure cause Beauchemin to make a weak swipe at a pass at his blueline instead of playing the body, and giving Haula another breakaway to score on? How does structure cause Holden, Bigras, and Skille all to try to cover the same man and leave Coyle wide open backdoor for a goal?

These are the last 7 non EN goals that gave away four points in the biggest games of the year to Minnesota and Nashville. Mistakes by defenseman were THE major reason, and on some of them the ONLY reason, for all of the goals against that lost them these huge games.

 

[Pokecheque]

Explain how structure causes Holden to whiff on a pass behind the net that results in a turnover and quick goal? How does structure cause EJ to skate into the corner and leave Neal alone in front of the net to whack in a rebound? How does structure cause Bodnarchuk to passively poke a puck sitting in the slot to a wide open Fisher for a goal instead of desperately getting it out of harms way?

How does the structure cause Barrie to react slowly off a faceoff and give up a 2 on 1? On that same play how does structure cause Holden not to see he's it's a 2 on 1 and try to step up on the puck carrier at the blueline, turning a 2 on 1 into a breakaway for Pomminville to score? How does structure cause EJ to play a 2 on 1 by skating into the corner and essentially giving Niederreiter a breakaway to cut into the middle and score? How does structure cause Beauchemin to make a weak swipe at a pass at his blueline instead of playing the body, and giving Haula another breakaway to score on? How does structure cause Holden, Bigras, and Skille all to try to cover the same man and leave Coyle wide open backdoor for a goal?

These are the last 7 non EN goals that gave away four points in the biggest games of the year to Minnesota and Nashville. Mistakes by defenseman were THE major reason, and on some of them the ONLY reason, for all of the goals against that lost them these huge games.

I edited my response. It doesn't lead directly to these mistakes, it merely increases the chances they will happen AND the chances those mistakes will end up in the Avalanche net.

 

[AslanRH]

Not all plays are system caused, but some are.

When Avs forwards fly the zone and don't leave passing options available to the Dman, when the plan is to send it off the glass or chip it to the jumbotron hoping the forward gets there first, etc.

Didn't see as much tonight as we have in the past though. Tonight was bad puck handling as much as anything.

 

[dahrougem2]

Roy's system is not ideal for defensemen to make passes, and that's not good. Good teams know how to make short, effective passes tape-to-tape as a five man unit when exiting the defensive zone. I hate how high Roy has the forwards. All three forwards to to centre ice and just circle around there while our defensemen go back and forth looking for a stretch pass and if it's not there, they skate it and dump it in. It wastes energy and often results in turnovers. It's not a recipe for success.

I've said it before how the Bruins in 2011 were arguably the fastest team in the league despite not having that many fast players, and it's because of how well they moved the puck and how great the support from other players was on each pass. We don't have any semblance of that on this team.

 

[Foppa2118]

I edited my response. It doesn't lead directly to these mistakes, it merely increases the chances they will happen AND the chances those mistakes will end up in the Avalanche net.

I respect your opinion, but I don't buy that one bit. Maybe one mistake every once in a while can be attributed to poor team play forcing you to panic or make a bad play, but the sheer volume of avoidable mistakes made by defenseman on this team is astounding. They 100% own the majority of those mistakes all by themselves. Saying it's the structure causing them to make stupid plays is a copout.

 

[CB Joe]

I'm shocked that people can't see the disorganization Roy's man-to-man system causes in the defensive zone and can't understand how that disorganisation can lead to bad plays by the defensemen. Not to mention the breakout with the forwards halfway up the ice. Clearly it is all the defenseman's fault for not being able to routinely make stretch passes from their only goal line while under pressure.

The defensemen are not without blame but they are not being put in a position where it is easy to succeed.

 

[Foppa2118]

I'm shocked that people can't see the disorganization Roy's man-to-man system causes in the defensive zone and can't understand how that disorganisation can lead to bad plays by the defensemen. Not to mention the breakout with the forwards halfway up the ice. Clearly it is all the defenseman's fault for not being able to routinely make stretch passes from their only goal line while under pressure.

The defensemen are not without blame but they are not being put in a position where it is easy to succeed.

They haven't played a man to man system in over a year, and it wasn't Roy's system, it was Tourigny's.

 

[Pokecheque]

I respect your opinion, but I don't buy that one bit. Maybe one mistake every once in a while can be attributed to poor team play forcing you to panic or make a bad play, but the sheer volume of avoidable mistakes made by defenseman on this team is astounding. They 100% own the majority of those mistakes all by themselves. Saying it's the structure causing them to make stupid plays is a copout.

You can tell yourself all you want, but it's not like the Avs have more mistake-prone defensemen than teams above them in the standings. The coaches are just smart enough so those mistakes aren't nearly as glaring. To say the huge, HUGE gaps between forwards and defense in Roy's system isn't leading to more turnovers, more intercepted/blocked passes, more failed breakouts, and ultimately, more scoring chances against because the forwards are so far away from those defenders that they can't effectively backcheck is just plain delusion.

 

[Pokecheque]

They haven't played a man to man system in over a year, and it wasn't Roy's system, it was Tourigny's.

Again, I have to wonder what team you're watching. They absolutely did play M2M this year and once again Roy had to veer away from it because it wasn't working. Right now it's just some jumbled mess Roy has cobbled together, but the vestiges of that M2M system remain.

 

[Foppa2118]

You can tell yourself all you want, but it's not like the Avs have more mistake-prone defensemen than teams above them in the standings. The coaches are just smart enough so those mistakes aren't nearly as glaring. To say the huge, HUGE gaps between forwards and defense in Roy's system isn't leading to more turnovers, more intercepted/blocked passes, more failed breakouts, and ultimately, more scoring chances against because the forwards are so far away from those defenders that they can't effectively backcheck is just plain delusion.

Are you just saying this, hoping it gets overlooked? The Avs defenseman are clearly worse defensively and more mistake prone than the team's above them.

 

[Foppa2118]

Again, I have to wonder what team you're watching. They absolutely did play M2M this year and once again Roy had to veer away from it because it wasn't working. Right now it's just some jumbled mess Roy has cobbled together, but the vestiges of that M2M system remain.

Your last two posts make me think you've just resorted to making things up now, to pin this on Roy.

 

[Pokecheque]

Are you just saying this, hoping it gets overlooked? The Avs defenseman are clearly worse defensively and more mistake prone than the team's above them.

I'm not gonna sit here and tell you this is a playoff-worthy blueline corps. It clearly isn't, and that, again, falls on Sakic and Roy for trying to upgrade at the deadline when they shouldn't have. But that's another discussion.

I believe this blueline ain't quite ready for prime time (especially Holden), but do I think it's nearly as bad as it's been showing lately? No.

Your last two posts make me think you've just resorted to making things up now, to pin this on Roy.

Either you didn't watch the games at the beginning of this season or you've convinced yourself what you saw wasn't the return of the M2M scheme when it clearly was. I don't know what to tell ya, man. You're being unusually rigid for reason's I can't explain. I'm not pinning all this on Roy, but his moves of late are indicative of a guy in way over his head.

 

[Foppa2118]

Either you didn't watch the games at the beginning of this season or you've convinced yourself what you saw wasn't the return of the M2M scheme when it clearly was. I don't know what to tell ya, man. You're being unusually rigid for reason's I can't explain. I'm not pinning all this on Roy, but his moves of late are indicative of a guy in way over his head.

Which games were they?

 

[tigervixxxen]

I'm far from a systems expert but I don't think theyve been playing man defense either...

 

[Freudian]

I'm shocked that people can't see the disorganization Roy's man-to-man system causes in the defensive zone and can't understand how that disorganisation can lead to bad plays by the defensemen. Not to mention the breakout with the forwards halfway up the ice. Clearly it is all the defenseman's fault for not being able to routinely make stretch passes from their only goal line while under pressure.

The defensemen are not without blame but they are not being put in a position where it is easy to succeed.

I think they see the disorganization but they like Patrick Roy, so they prefer to blame the players.

We do have players that make mistakes. Every team does. That's where details, habits and structure comes in. They minimize the effects of the mistakes. Avs are very poor at minimizing the effects of mistakes. That's on the coaches.

 

[lonelybadger]

Roy isn't the only problem with the team, and he is not the biggest but he is the most easily upgraded. All it takes is money. Moving back to Ontario and being stuck watching leafs games with my friends really shows what a great coach (babock) can do. The leafs truly are a team that on most nights are playing to the best of their ability. Sure they are terrible and they losing most of their games, but the players (before their selloff) seemed to have a game plan and were playing much better than the previous few seasons of more talented leaf fans.

This avs do not need a babcock level coach, and I do feel Roy is an NHL caliber coach (albeit a lower end one) but it's been three seasons of getting outshot, three seasons of failing to start/finish games, and three seasons of relying on miracles. Something needs to change and I hope it's Roy before Duchene/lando/varly.

 

[tigervixxxen]

The Leafs whole "they are terrible but play well" is getting old too. It's a really fascinating narrative they've created up there. They are tanking, period. When they decide to compete then we'll see how much of a god Babcock is. He might be but looking good while losing is still losing.

 

[SuperJoe]

The Leafs whole "they are terrible but play well" is getting old too. It's a really fascinating narrative they've created up there. They are tanking, period. When they decide to compete then we'll see how much of a god Babcock is. He might be but looking good while losing is still losing.

I would take Babcock in a heartbeat over Patty

 

[tigervixxxen]

I would take Babcock in a heartbeat over Patty

I'm sure many people would

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

If anything all this game proves is how much we need to move out Varlamov. Pickard is obviously ready to take this team all the way.

 

[Foppa2118]

I would take Babcock in a heartbeat over Patty

How do you feel about Crosby vs Duchene?

 

[the_fan]

I'm done blaming the coaching staff until they fix the defense. Whenever this team builds an NHL blue line then we'll see if the problem is the coaching, but for now this team doing it's best with 3 good NHL d-men.

If they finally ice a full NHL blue line and struggle again to make the playoffs, then i'll blame the coaching. The forward group is good enough, it's not an elite top 6 but it's a good enough top 6, and a solid bottom 6 group.

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

Let's just trade away all our players for draft picks. Start over, fill up the Avalanche roster with the San Antonio Rampage players then fill the Rampage with FA Euro's and College FA's. Obviously this core can't get anything done. Screw patience and let's pretend that the Sacco era did more harm then we realize.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Let's just trade away all our players for draft picks. Start over, fill up the Avalanche roster with the San Antonio Rampage players then fill the Rampage with FA Euro's and College FA's. Obviously this core can't get anything done. Screw patience and let's pretend that the Sacco era did more harm then we realize.

Sounds like a good plan but they don't have a use for draft picks.