Bubba Thudd
is getting banned
Hasn't Varly lost like 5 of his last 7 starts, or some ridiculous number?
Or am I imagining that it's that bad?
Or am I imagining that it's that bad?
Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics)
- Thread starter tigervixxxen
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Gigantor The Goalie
Speak for the Goalies
tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
Roy even said today "core players not playing like they should", EJs quote about if they don't make the playoffs there will be changes. I think it's time to really start taking it serious. Might or might not happen but I don't think it's JUST Datering.
Avs_19
Registered User
- Jun 28, 2007
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Internet trade gossip aside, this is a good problem to have. We have one of the better goalies in the league and now a young guy who also looks legit. I think it's still too early to be talking about a trade because of the sample size but if Pickard were to get most of the starts the rest of the way and lead us into the playoffs, that could be in play.
That's because you're much more likely to get a current NHL player in a different position in trading one of the forwards, than we are getting anything meaningful to the NHL roster when trading Varlamov.
If they trade a core forward, it would likely be an attempt to find a one for one D for forward type trade. Varlamov would get us some cap space, and a 1st round pick type of value if we're lucky.
Then add in our history with goaltending, and the fact that Pickard still has much to prove. Well, there is just a whole lot more in the way of question marks that involve dangerous outcomes where we take a step back when talking about trading a goalie of that caliber for so little in the way of NHL roster value.
Which SHOULD happen. I understand that you think the rebuild started again once Sakic and Roy took over, but personally for me, I think we should consider it as a "whole" since 2009.
- This team has not been able to consistently play a full 60 minute game for a week since 2009.
- This team has a starting goaler who is starting to create justifying doubt in posters here (even how good he has been).
- This team has a core centre who's range and deepness of emotions makes quantum physics look like 2nd grade material.
- This team has a #1 defenseman who has an inability to stay healthy and someone who's lacking in intelligence (and it pains me so much to say this).
- This team has a LW Captain that hasn't had a very good consistent overall season in the last two years, who's balance is worst than Charlie Scheen coming from Friday night out of the Frolic Room.
I'm going to sound like a broken record, but I absolutely believe that this team has what it takes to be good. Though I haven't seen anything to convince me that this team has what it takes to go on a very deep playoff run. I go back to my St. Louis Blues analogy, you can be a good team, but never have any playoff success. This is my worst fear that the Avs are becoming. Trust me, if we have a chance to win the Cup with the core we have, I would be in ecstasy. I understand that people love the old fart, but winning with this team would mean so much more to me than any of the previous two Cups (yes you can flame me). I don't want to change anything, but Avs are going down the road that it looks like something must change to get over the next cliff.
henchman21
Mr. Meeseeks
- Feb 24, 2012
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That cap space could potentially help the team a lot, it isn't insignificant by any means. Trading Varly would clear at least 4.5, but close to $5m which could go a long ways to signing somebody like Radulov in addition to keeping Boedker. Along with being able to get 2nd player in the first like a Gauthier or McAvoy. So it may just be cap space and a pick, but that can improve the whole team if there isn't a huge drop off from Picks to Varly (that is a big if).
Trading Duchene or Landy is swapping a 60 point forward on good contracts for potentially a top pairing defensemen or a similar caliber forward... both likely on similar value contracts so there wouldn't be much (if any) cap savings. Or you trade one of them for pieces in a similar deal to the ROR deal. WIth no direct replacements, it is harder to get better trading Landy, Duchene, or EJ than it is with Varly (assuming you are confident that Picks can at least be a starting goalie).
Yeah there are different routes you can go, but I was just trying to highlight that there is a lot more in the way of question marks when trading Varly than trading one of the core forwards for a core defender.
One is kind of cut and trade remove to replace, and the other involves a lot more in the way of possible outcomes that are not exactly positive when you add in Pickard and a return based on futures.
This is assuming that they wouldn't trade one of the core forward for a package, because, well, that's about one of the dumbest **** moves they can do setting this team back again for another collection of question marks.
The only benefit we're getting right now from the O'Reilly trade is Grigorenko. (Not talking trade value, but just who is helping the NHL team right now) So we we're set back at least one year with that trade.
I think Carolina could be added as a sleeper candidate for needing a true starting Goalie.
Would that team even want a good goaltender? Depends if they are going the route of the Leafs, or the route of Calgary.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
Buffalo likes Lehner's potential and fight; but if Varly weren't Russian I could definitely see GMTM jumping at the opportunity to make that upgrade. And contenders with mediocre goalies, like Dallas, could certainly get involved if they could dump some money out of the position by moving one of their expensive current goalies.
Either way, trading Varly is less about the return than it is what we could do to bolster this team with the capspace that's committed to him. We won't get fair value for the guy Varly's been for us. We should, however, be able to recoup futures for his worth during this up'n'down campaign, but that won't include any quality roster players or blue chip prospects. The reason to move Varly would be to free up his cap space so we could chase both Radulov and Boedker in the summer, and maybe also better depth; like that reliable 3rd pairing RHD we need or some Matthias/Comeau-esque third liners...if some other salary gets moved out to. And for that to make sense you'd have to have lost some faith in Varly going Varlagod being worth that money; while having a lot of faith in Pickard/Berra to do a satisfactory job behind a stronger team...at least until Martin's ready to start at the NHL level.
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Good point.
I'm not sure how well that market would withstand full blown taking, and they have a good base (young and low cost) started already, especially on defense. I think they will likely lean more the way of Calgary than Toronto.
henchman21
Mr. Meeseeks
- Feb 24, 2012
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There is a lot more upside to a Varly deal though. The return would be futures and cap flexibility to add to the rest of the team. I don't think there is any way the Avs would trade Vary for a pick/prospect and then just do nothing with the extra cap space. So whoever that player might be wouldn't technically be a part of the deal, but since these things don't happen in a vacuum, that player would contribute to making the team better and would only be an Av because of the cap space. Similar to how Soda isn't a part of the ROR deal, but he is only here because ROR is gone.
A core player swap is shuffling around the deck chairs. The odds of getting a real improvement on a Landy/Duchene/EJ swap is pretty small. The odds of cutting a bunch of cap space is pretty small. It is much more likely the Avs wash out in a deal like that... end up no better or worse.
I think a core forward or defensemen for futures trade is one of the worst things they could do at this juncture. If ROR was still around and the Avs hadn't made that move, it would make sense.
If I had to guess who would trade for Varly... I think Calgary and Toronto would make big pushes.
Foppa2118
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2003
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Man that would be an odd turn of events. Varly steals a boatload of games and pulls this crappy defense out of last place into playoff contention and picking in the middle of the 1st round instead of top 5. Just to be traded for the Avs to move up to a top 5 pick at the draft.
tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
7 years got them 6 whole players and as you point out, have flaws. They are good enough to make the playoffs but so are about 25 other rosters in the league. Other than that, have the built anything significant or special, not really. I believed in where they were headed but if they feel like this group is at a crossroads and they need to make a decision then I guess that's what's going to happen.
Yeah I could see them going in either direction, but leaning towards trying to be competitive.
I mean if they add a top draft pick, and bring E. Staal back in the off-season. They could really want a goalie in Varlys age range that is basically plug and play. Ward could sign for less and stay on as an older back up, which worked well for Varly in the past.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
If battling injury is a legit excuse for EJ's inconsistency or for Landy's mediocre pre-ASB play, it should also be an acceptable excuse for Varly; who was battling groin problems during that bad start. Once Steve came back healthy, he put cheat codes in and dragged us back into the playoff race by being unreal through December and January...before that **** and her lawsuit came back into the picture. He's been off since then, although he's flashed the Varly we know and love (see that first Detroit game that we stole). But his season totals are hurt more by that crappy start than his recent funk, I'd imagine; so if we're excusing guys inconsistency because of injuries, Varly deserves the same benefit of the doubt.
If, on the other hand, we're not letting playing injured excuse guys' play, then we're going to have to have some serious conversations about Varly's groin, EJ's knees, and Landy's body in general. Because those are all regular health concerns that effect these three players' ability to consistently perform to their abilities.
It's because of how much Varly has singlehandedly carried us to wins. AKA the same reason any post about the Avs best player in the previous two seasons, had to specify best skater to keep Varly from taking every vote.
Agreed. But I also don't think it's just about whether we get in or not, so much as it is about whether we put up a fight or roll over, and whether our core guys are the guys who lead us to fight back or not.
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I'm not arguing for or against either move, but just point out the context to why there is more split opinion and discussion about trading Varly.
Now that it was brought up by Aslan, Carolina would probably be a good fit depending as well.
Duchene2MacKinnon
In the hands of Genius
- Aug 8, 2006
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Varly has been off and on all year. Healthy, injured, focused, destracted, who knows how he is going to play. It's been a tale of two seasons for EJ, pre- and post-injury.
Duchene2MacKinnon
In the hands of Genius
- Aug 8, 2006
- 46,765
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Who is then?
A big cap hit and you're best player the last few years...recipe for success
Duchene is on pace for 62 points and 34 goals
Mackinnon is on pace for 60 points.
Lando is on pace for 60 points.
It would be nice to have one of MacK or Duchene closer to a ppg. But 60 points is not really underperforming. A little bit less then we can talk. That's also perfectly fine production for 6M. Lando is right where he should be. Anything more than 60 from him is a bonus.
EJ is obviously hurt. Before that he was earning his keep.
Varly, however, is in the lower 10 in the league amongst #1s in save%, and bottom5 in GAA. Both Pickard and Berra are statistically better as well, even having similar stats, so you can't use the team excuse for Varly. He has been by far our most inconsistent core player as well, which goalie is the position you need the most consistency from. And then there is the question of playing in big games, which is another thing really important for a goalie, and something I don't think the other core members have been questioned about.
On pace over the course of the year doesn't mean much when talking about consistency. Not even going to touch the EJ obvious "injury".
Stats aside Varly one of the best goalies in the league. Had a Vezina nominee with Gueinin playing a predominate role. Put him in behind the devils system and he'll blow the competition away.
Hans Landaskog
Registered User
Sure Varly may have dragged us into playoff contention, but he's also a big reason we were unable to create any separation and get over the hump to secure a spot while other teams faltered. We also can't ignore the fact that other teams had to go on serious losing streaks for us to get this far.
Those losing streaks happen to almost all teams though, maybe you have a couple teams in the leauge like WSH but usually most teams have some down stretches during the year.
STL, CHI, MIN, NSH, SJ, ANA, DAL all have had long or short stretches of crap play.
Winnipeg just fell of a cliff
CHI & DAL both are good at losing when we need them to win as well
McMetal
Writer of Wrongs
- Sep 29, 2015
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Trading Varley for cap space at the draft is an interesting scenario, but I just don't see Pickard being ready for that starter position yet to take his place. As well as he plays, he's awfully young, experience counts for a lot in net. IIRC, there aren't any really elite UFA defensemen we could sign during the offseason, which is still our primary need right now (especially with Boedker on the team), so the value we could really add to the team with that cap space is limited at best. We have plenty of good forwards, we just need to shore up the back end more.
Avs_19
Registered User
- Jun 28, 2007
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Canucks just completely botched that situation. They waited too long and helped create that distraction themselves.
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