Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) ‎

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henchman21

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Feb 24, 2012
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Will to win doesn't have anything to do with it. He can have an internal will to win and still use some external pressure to reach his potential. Otherwise players and teams wouldn't need coachs and people wouldn't need parents.

He will still have coaches and parents and teammates etc. There are plenty of reasons to want to be a top flight hockey player beyond money.

Money didn't ruin Seguin... it isn't going to ruin MacKinnon. And really it doesn't matter anyway. I'd say there is a legit chance that MacK gets an offersheet if it gets testy. It only takes a 1st, 2nd and 3rd to sign him to a big deal, there isn't a team in the NHL with cap room that wouldn't pay that price for MacK.
 

Foppa2118

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Oct 3, 2003
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He will still have coaches and parents and teammates etc. There are plenty of reasons to want to be a top flight hockey player beyond money.

Money didn't ruin Seguin... it isn't going to ruin MacKinnon. And really it doesn't matter anyway. I'd say there is a legit chance that MacK gets an offersheet if it gets testy. It only takes a 1st, 2nd and 3rd to sign him to a big deal, there isn't a team in the NHL with cap room that wouldn't pay that price for MacK.

You're kind of inadvertently getting into a straw man argument. You're arguing from the standpoint that I'm saying this is the only way for him to reach his potential, not what I'm actually saying. That there's a chance he may not reach his potential if given a long term big money contract right now. He easily could work out like Seguin. I'll even agree that's the more likely scenario, but citing Seguin doesn't disprove that it might not work out like him, and that it's more than a minute chance.

Practically every NHL player in history avoided the same test to their development that you're implying doesn't matter. It's a very new trend in the NHL, and many of the players given top dollar long term deals out of their ELC were like Landy. Solid defensively, mature, and closer to their potential than Mack.

There's not a whole lot of difference in the grand scheme of things between Mack being a good 65-70 pt offensive player, and him being a 80-90 pt star center, but there is a big difference it can make to a team, and IMO it's more important to ensure that, than to ensure he's on a "good deal."

His eventual outcome isn't pre determined based on his will to win and natural skill set. Small things have the potential to make a difference. To me this is one.

Hopefully you're right, and that it doesn't matter with him. Chances are you will be, because that's the more likely outcome.
 

tigervixxxen

Optimism=Delusional
Jul 7, 2013
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In chambers' story about Matthias it says he wants to sign an extension with Colorado. I know doesn't mean much but thought it was worth mentioning since we were talking about it earlier. And like I said I think he does really like it here.
 

NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS

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Feb 28, 2006
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I was pro bridge as I didn't think Mac had earned the big deal and wasn't sure he would become that big ticket player. But if it's a 7m deal it's still worth it. He'll likely reach Duchene level of a good first liner. The risk that he doesn't is pretty low
 

henchman21

Mr. Meeseeks
Feb 24, 2012
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You're kind of inadvertently getting into a straw man argument. You're arguing from the standpoint that I'm saying this is the only way for him to reach his potential, not what I'm actually saying. That there's a chance he may not reach his potential if given a long term big money contract right now. He easily could work out like Seguin. I'll even agree that's the more likely scenario, but citing Seguin doesn't disprove that it might not work out like him, and that it's more than a minute chance.

Practically every NHL player in history avoided the same test to their development that you're implying doesn't matter. It's a very new trend in the NHL, and many of the players given top dollar long term deals out of their ELC were like Landy. Solid defensively, mature, and closer to their potential than Mack.

There's not a whole lot of difference in the grand scheme of things between Mack being a good 65-70 pt offensive player, and him being a 80-90 pt star center, but there is a big difference it can make to a team, and IMO it's more important to ensure that, than to ensure he's on a "good deal."

His eventual outcome isn't pre determined based on his will to win and natural skill set. Small things have the potential to make a difference. To me this is one.

Hopefully you're right, and that it doesn't matter with him. Chances are you will be, because that's the more likely outcome.

You are saying money can potentially stunt him.... I'm saying that if it does, it didn't matter to begin with as him leading this core will have failed.

The practically every player in the NHL argument is just wrong. The best players get paid (especially forwards), always have. Hell, they used to get paid right after being drafted. Now that is delayed 3 years.

There is a huge difference between the two. MacK isn't going to be a two way force like Toews or Kopi... so he is going to have to be that 80+ point center to really help the Avs contend. It can be argued that is the wrong type of center to build around, but this is the path that the Avs chose. If he fails, the Avs fail. If a long-term deal ruins him, he simply wasn't right to begin with.
 

CobraAcesS

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You are saying money can potentially stunt him.... I'm saying that if it does, it didn't matter to begin with as him leading this core will have failed.

The practically every player in the NHL argument is just wrong. The best players get paid (especially forwards), always have. Hell, they used to get paid right after being drafted. Now that is delayed 3 years.

There is a huge difference between the two. MacK isn't going to be a two way force like Toews or Kopi... so he is going to have to be that 80+ point center to really help the Avs contend. It can be argued that is the wrong type of center to build around, but this is the path that the Avs chose. If he fails, the Avs fail. If a long-term deal ruins him, he simply wasn't right to begin with.

This is probably why Roy and Sakic want a center who his bigger and more defensively minded. Roy has probably realized this about both MacKinnon and Duchene to this point.

It would speak to their motivation behind Rantanen's development, and they probably feel like the window to develop or find that is within Soderberg's time here.
 

AllAboutAvs

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I'm calling Mack taking a long-term contract between 6.6 and 6.85M. I'd say 6 or 7 years. My reason: Mack will want 7 but the Avs will want something closer to 6, and with Mack insisting on a long-term contract they will finally agree on the upper part of 6.

Get it done Sakic.
 

agentblack

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Apr 11, 2011
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Yeah, after all that Jones to the Avs stuff before the draft, they still would have probably picked Barkov and Drouin over him.
And i would have agreed with that.
 

Foppa2118

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Oct 3, 2003
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You are saying money can potentially stunt him.... I'm saying that if it does, it didn't matter to begin with as him leading this core will have failed.

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I'm not sure why you keep putting it like this. In one hypothetical scenario he reaches his potential. In another he doesn't. In the scenario where he reaches his potential, "failure to lead the core" does not come into play.

The practically every player in the NHL argument is just wrong. The best players get paid (especially forwards), always have. Hell, they used to get paid right after being drafted. Now that is delayed 3 years.

"Being paid" isn't anywhere near the same as being paid as an elite player on a long term deal coming out of your ELC. That was never the case until a little while ago, so yes in fact the vast majority of players were not put to the same test. They had to wait for their big career contract.

There is a huge difference between the two. MacK isn't going to be a two way force like Toews or Kopi... so he is going to have to be that 80+ point center to really help the Avs contend. It can be argued that is the wrong type of center to build around, but this is the path that the Avs chose. If he fails, the Avs fail. If a long-term deal ruins him, he simply wasn't right to begin with.

You're simplifying the issue to suit your argument. You're only looking at it from the standpoint of "if a long term deal ruins him."

If they forego giving him the big contract for a year or two and it helps push him to become the player that can lead the team, then there is no "failure."

I'm not saying I absolutely want them to give him a bridge deal, I'm just saying its a concern to give him that money this early and after the year he had, and I would bet you every cent I have, that the Avs brass privately has the same concerns.
 

McMetal

Writer of Wrongs
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If MacKinnon doesn't become the team leader in points in the next few years, the Avs are going to have much bigger problems than overpaying the kid by a couple million. Give him the money now, why risk needing to pay him big money in a couple years? And that kind of breakout is exactly the same best case scenario for us as it would be if we paid him now, except we'd only be paying him 6.75 instead of 8 or 9. And if the worst happens and he remains a .75 PPG guy, the Avs aren't going to win the Cup with this core anyway. We either made the right bet picking him at 1OA or we didn't. That choice defined the franchise for this era, and we have to live with it.
 

henchman21

Mr. Meeseeks
Feb 24, 2012
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I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I'm not sure why you keep putting it like this. In one hypothetical scenario he reaches his potential. In another he doesn't. In the scenario where he reaches his potential, "failure to lead the core" does not come into play.



"Being paid" isn't anywhere near the same as being paid as an elite player on a long term deal coming out of your ELC. That was never the case until a little while ago, so yes in fact the vast majority of players were not put to the same test. They had to wait for their big career contract.



You're simplifying the issue to suit your argument. You're only looking at it from the standpoint of "if a long term deal ruins him."

If they forego giving him the big contract for a year or two and it helps push him to become the player that can lead the team, then there is no "failure."

I'm not saying I absolutely want them to give him a bridge deal, I'm just saying its a concern to give him that money this early and after the year he had, and I would bet you every cent I have, that the Avs brass privately has the same concerns.

I put it like that, because that is realistically what it is. If MacK doesn't have enough motivation beyond money to become a top player, he simply isn't the guy to build around and regardless of the contract, it is a failure. The best players are not driven by that. The contract that he would get this summer, yeah he'd easily still earn that. But if money is the big motivator, he is the the wrong player to build around. So him theoretically being push a bit more for the contract doesn't factor in since if that is his motivation, it is wrong to begin with and the Avs would cut bait.

It has never changed. The best players always get paid as soon as they can. Eric Lindros came into the NHL as the highest paid player in the league. Paul Kariya entered the league with a top 15 salary. Forsberg's 4th year he was in the top 15. Kane and Towes got paid after their ELC. So did Kopitar and Doughty. As did Stamkos and Tavares.

The long-term deal that MacK gets, it won't be over $7m at this point and probably closer to the mid $6m range. That is far from elite money nowadays and on top of that, the contract will only take him to his mid to late 20s.

There are two big reasons to force MacK into a bridge deal... saving cap space the next couple seasons and to attempt to hold his rights longer.

One thing to factor in as well is the relationship aspect of this. Forcing MacK into a bridge deal when there is very little need to can sour the relationship and push him out of the organization pretty quickly. We have seen this happen twice recently with RyJo and ROR.
 

InjuredChoker

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One thing to factor in as well is the relationship aspect of this. Forcing MacK into a bridge deal when there is very little need to can sour the relationship and push him out of the organization pretty quickly. We have seen this happen twice recently with RyJo and ROR.

especially after barkov got a long-term deal and monahan will get one. only 1st overall forward post-lockout to not get long-term deal after ELC is yakupov..

i'd be pissed as heck in that situation.

it's not even all about the money but organization telling me that i'm not good enough or appreciated enough. maybe that's not the place where i'd want to be.

i don't think there's a forward like mack (even ignoring draft position) who hasn't gotten long-term deal out of ELC. 0.7 PPG in 218 games and very good in only PO-series where he's played. stepan might be closest but he was also older.
 

Balthazar

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especially after barkov got a long-term deal and monahan will get one. only 1st overall forward post-lockout to not get long-term deal after ELC is yakupov..

i'd be pissed as heck in that situation.

It won't happen. They clearly wanted to build around him at the beginning of this season ("everyone is tradable except Mack") and while Mack's season wasn't good, it wasn't a huge disaster either.
 

Foppa2118

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Oct 3, 2003
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I put it like that, because that is realistically what it is. If MacK doesn't have enough motivation beyond money to become a top player, he simply isn't the guy to build around and regardless of the contract, it is a failure. The best players are not driven by that. The contract that he would get this summer, yeah he'd easily still earn that. But if money is the big motivator, he is the the wrong player to build around. So him theoretically being push a bit more for the contract doesn't factor in since if that is his motivation, it is wrong to begin with and the Avs would cut bait.

It has never changed. The best players always get paid as soon as they can. Eric Lindros came into the NHL as the highest paid player in the league. Paul Kariya entered the league with a top 15 salary. Forsberg's 4th year he was in the top 15. Kane and Towes got paid after their ELC. So did Kopitar and Doughty. As did Stamkos and Tavares.

The long-term deal that MacK gets, it won't be over $7m at this point and probably closer to the mid $6m range. That is far from elite money nowadays and on top of that, the contract will only take him to his mid to late 20s.

There are two big reasons to force MacK into a bridge deal... saving cap space the next couple seasons and to attempt to hold his rights longer.

One thing to factor in as well is the relationship aspect of this. Forcing MacK into a bridge deal when there is very little need to can sour the relationship and push him out of the organization pretty quickly. We have seen this happen twice recently with RyJo and ROR.

This is where we disagree. You think that would make MacK something I don't. The external pressure to become better. I think that has helped a great many players in history play better and it doesn't make them incapable of leading a team. Even players outside MacKs situation almost routinely have their best seasons in their contract year. It doesn't make them only motivated by money as you suggest. It also isn't THE motivator it is A motivator, and it isn't even about giving them extra motivation as I ve said, it's about not taking it away.

If you look at every different thing a coach does to motivate a player, you can't say "if a player needs X to reach his potential he isn't the guy to build around" because it's just one of many things. Everything in his past and his natural skill set, and his will to win have got him 90% there. It's that extra 10% that is the hardest for every player and a lot don't reach it. In MacK's case that 10% takes him from being a very good player to a great player.

As for players salaries, Kariya and Forsberg were clearly the exceptions to the vast majority, and both of them had already reached their offensive potential with multiple high point totals. Kariya a high of 108 points, and Forsberg with 116.

Toews, Tavares, Kopitar, Stamkos, Doughty and Kane are part of the new generation I was referring to, where it has become more common, but still in the minority.

Aside from that, Toews, Tavares, and Kopitar are like how I described Landy as a safe bet. Proven mature, two way players, already very close to their potential.

Stamkos was already proven offensively with back to baby 90+ point seasons to meet his potential. Doughty and Kane were already proven offensively with 59 and 88 point seasons respectively, and both coming off Stankey Cups where they played HUGE roles.

Mack for what a great player he is, still has his rookie point total of 63 as his career best and he wasn't on pace to beat that this year. He only has a few games of playoff experience, and he's still a defensive liability at times.

Seguin really is the only comparison I see to where MacK is at in his career, as he was given a big contract with a career high 67 point season. It worked out for him and hopefully it will work out for MacK.
 

InjuredChoker

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tavares wasn't two-way player when he signed that contract. well, he isn't that even today.

doughty had not won SC when he signed that contract. neither had kane. signed 7 months before that iirc.

hall also got long-term contract after 11-12 season. career high was 53 points but he missed 21 games. saad got one last summer.
 

Foppa2118

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Oct 3, 2003
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tavares wasn't two-way player when he signed that contract. well, he isn't that even today.

doughty had not won SC when he signed that contract. neither had kane. signed 7 months before that iirc.

Disagree on Tavares. I watched him a lot during his ELC. He was already pretty solid defensively, and is so now. He's no Bergeron or Toews but he looks like it compared to Dutchy and Mack.

You're correct on Doughty and Kane though I forgot they signed before that. They still had their proven offensive seasons though.
 

Chileiceman

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Dec 14, 2004
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I bet if Mackinnon had scored on his 15 or however many posts he's hit, people wouldn't be wondering if he's worth big money. Don't get caught up in the stats. He is worth big money, he's a gosh darned superstar. My only complaint about him is that he needs to take it to the net more when gaining the zone with speed rather than pulling up and looking to get set up.

But that's it. He is very underrated defensively. He's good along the boards, reads the opposing cycle well. His line isn't often getting hemmed in when he's out there. His acceleration is out of this world, his stckhandling has improved by leaps and bounds since his rookie year, has a lethal writer.
I love Matt Duchene, I really do. But if you were to ask me TODAY who I'd rather have if I could only choose one, I'm still taking Mack. He makes things happen every night, even if he doesn't get rewarded on the score sheet. I'd give him 7 million long term without batting an eye, because he is worth that now, and would likely be worth more than that in the future.
 

henchman21

Mr. Meeseeks
Feb 24, 2012
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With as much as MacK shoots he should hit 8-9 a year... I think he is close to that 15 number. With a fraction of an inch he could legitimately have 5 more goals. Some have just been awful too... like the feed from Boedker that hit both posts. As a player, you have to think you are cursed to have that happen.
 

Wintersun

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Jan 15, 2013
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I bet if Mackinnon had scored on his 15 or however many posts he's hit, people wouldn't be wondering if he's worth big money. Don't get caught up in the stats. He is worth big money, he's a gosh darned superstar. My only complaint about him is that he needs to take it to the net more when gaining the zone with speed rather than pulling up and looking to get set up.

But that's it. He is very underrated defensively. He's good along the boards, reads the opposing cycle well. His line isn't often getting hemmed in when he's out there. His acceleration is out of this world, his stckhandling has improved by leaps and bounds since his rookie year, has a lethal writer.
I love Matt Duchene, I really do. But if you were to ask me TODAY who I'd rather have if I could only choose one, I'm still taking Mack. He makes things happen every night, even if he doesn't get rewarded on the score sheet. I'd give him 7 million long term without batting an eye, because he is worth that now, and would likely be worth more than that in the future.

I'm not going to complain about most of what you said, but in my opinion, MacKinnon is very under average defensively. I do think he's worth 7M$ long term, but I believe we could maybe get him for a little bit less.
 
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