Speculation: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Related Topics 2016-17 Part XVII

[agentblack]

The idea that these kids for whatever reason dont want to come here makes drafting that much more important and having as many picks as humanly possible. Exploring as many options possible to make that happen.

 

[lonelybadger]

Sakic and the avs really need a win, but I don't think they will ever get it.

 

[chet1926]

Just keep making excuses. Sure everything can be picked apart and squinted at in a certain way to come up with some explanation. But look at where we are, it all adds up and everything is fair game. Becoming one of the worst teams in hockey doesn't happen overnight or for one reason or because of one person. It is a systematic organizational failure. Yeah one dude didn't want to come here and so haven't all the guys before him that we supposedly were in on even when we weren't a raging dumpster fire. Young guys are looking for an opportunity just as much if not more than a good team to join. If I were a guy's agent I'd tell him about their development track record and their tendencies on calling guys up too. It all matters.

I don't think these late bloomer college guys are going to be superstars either but when you lack assets or draft picks it's a way to supplement them and depth in the org.

You're right this didn't happen overnight, it started way back at the end of the first lockout. Way before Sakic had even retired. To blame it on one management group over that time period is ignorant.

 

[tigervixxxen]

You're right this didn't happen overnight, it started way back at the end of the first lockout. Way before Sakic had even retired. To blame it on one management group over that time period is ignorant.

To think the management group has changed over that time is ignorant

 

[AvsWraith]

This business of NCAA guys refusing to sign and getting to be FA is BS.

Pittsburgh signs so and so, or Chicago signs every single good player not in the NHL. This all needs to stop, IMO.

If you didn't get drafted, but want to play in the NHL, you should have to go through waivers because the rich getting richer is a lame system.

 

[member 116861]

Just keep making excuses. Sure everything can be picked apart and squinted at in a certain way to come up with some explanation. But look at where we are, it all adds up and everything is fair game. Becoming one of the worst teams in hockey doesn't happen overnight or for one reason or because of one person. It is a systematic organizational failure. Yeah one dude didn't want to come here and so haven't all the guys before him that we supposedly were in on even when we weren't a raging dumpster fire. Young guys are looking for an opportunity just as much if not more than a good team to join. If I were a guy's agent I'd tell him about their development track record and their tendencies on calling guys up too. It all matters.

I don't think these late bloomer college guys are going to be superstars either but when you lack assets or draft picks it's a way to supplement them and depth in the org.

You're right about the development track record because everyone seems to hit a wall when taking the next step which stops them from becoming a superstar. Who are we talking about on the second point? Duncan Siemens? Since '09 (the rebuild), who hasn't been given a shot at the majors?

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I guess I'm struggling to understand, what you all don't comprehend about unrestricted free agency. Is it the part about how the players have no restrictions on where they want to play? It must be that because I don't know what else you all could not understand about such a simple concept.

The fact is the player can choose whatever they feel like, especially if they have multiple teams making offers.

Ask yourselves, what is the best thing the Avs can physically offer to a college UFA...that would be the opportunity to come play this year and burn a ELC year. That's it, we have nothing else to offer. But guess what Dallas is in the same position as us, so is Buffalo. But guess what they aren't in last freaking place. Has it ever occurred to anyone that UFAs sees this dumpster fire and say to themselves, well that is a terrible situation, I don't want to be anywhere near that. Not saying that Buffalo or Dallas is in much better of a position but at least they aren't in dead freaking last and it looks like they might be on the upswing in the near future. Whereas we look like **** and going nowhere fast.

Next I want you to ask yourselves what is the last college UFA that has made a significant impact on the team they signed with. Vesey is OK at best 24pts as a 22 year old rookie isn't that impressive, Hayes is decent. Dekeyser etc. they all are pretty average.

I guess nothing is ever going to change around here, no matter what Sakic does, everyone is just going to say he is ****. I'm fully prepared to read all the comments about how in the hell did Sakic not sign Shattenkirk, Oshie and Alzner, and how come he didn't trade all our **** vets for draft picks at the draft.

Spot on, Chet. Put yourself in the position of a 22 year old free agent who can sign with any team and it's the same money regardless of where you play. Do you take the opportunity to play beside Crosby or do you play with a team who can't score a goal?

 

[chet1926]

To think the management group has changed over that time is ignorant

The people have changed meaning there has been physical "change." The philosophies on the other hand, is for sure up for debate. There is for sure a good old boys feel around the Avs, which needs to change. Professional sports is a cut-throat industry, until the Avs learn that they are going to be left in the dust. Can't play favorites at this level. Especially towards aging vets.

 

[Avs_19]

Disappointed but not surprised. As I was saying yesterday, I just don't see much of a reason for a kid to sign here right now.

 

[Foppa2118]

I guess I'm struggling to understand, what you all don't comprehend about unrestricted free agency. Is it the part about how the players have no restrictions on where they want to play? It must be that because I don't know what else you all could not understand about such a simple concept.

The fact is the player can choose whatever they feel like, especially if they have multiple teams making offers.

Ask yourselves, what is the best thing the Avs can physically offer to a college UFA...that would be the opportunity to come play this year and burn a ELC year. That's it, we have nothing else to offer. But guess what Dallas is in the same position as us, so is Buffalo. But guess what they aren't in last freaking place. Has it ever occurred to anyone that UFAs sees this dumpster fire and say to themselves, well that is a terrible situation, I don't want to be anywhere near that. Not saying that Buffalo or Dallas is in much better of a position but at least they aren't in dead freaking last and it looks like they might be on the upswing in the near future. Whereas we look like **** and going nowhere fast.

Next I want you to ask yourselves what is the last college UFA that has made a significant impact on the team they signed with. Vesey is OK at best 24pts as a 22 year old rookie isn't that impressive, Hayes is decent. Dekeyser etc. they all are pretty average.

I guess nothing is ever going to change around here, no matter what Sakic does, everyone is just going to say he is ****. I'm fully prepared to read all the comments about how in the hell did Sakic not sign Shattenkirk, Oshie and Alzner, and how come he didn't trade all our **** vets for draft picks at the draft.

I think it's the part about the Avs consistently having enough cap space, a rich enough owner, and such an incredible lack of depth that they can match anyone's contract and roster spot offers. Yet they never do. They always drop out because they won't offer what someone else does.

Not sure that anyone's been in such a position to sign college FA's over the last five or six years, and they have nothing to show for it. Despite the players having them on their shortlist of teams to go to.

Then they say they "tried." Just like they tried to sign good UFA's, tried to trade for good players, and tried to draft defenseman.

 

[AslanRH]

To think the management group has changed over that time is ignorant

Ignorant seems a bit strong.

you have previously referred to this regime (Sakic/Roy) in comparison to the past regime (PL/EL). I believe you even said this one deserves 4-5 years to let their plan come to fruition before they could be fairly judged before you turned to the dark side of frustration like many of us have.

the ideology may not have changed much but the actors have.

 

[hockeyfish]

This business of NCAA guys refusing to sign and getting to be FA is BS.

Pittsburgh signs so and so, or Chicago signs every single good player not in the NHL. This all needs to stop, IMO.

If you didn't get drafted, but want to play in the NHL, you should have to go through waivers because the rich getting richer is a lame system.

What are you talking about. A, these guys didn't refuse to sign, they were never drafted. And your rich getting richer doesn't make sense since their contracts are tightly capped.

 

[Foppa2118]

To think the management group has changed over that time is ignorant

The management group absolutely has changed. Sakic was still playing. MacFarland wasn't in the organization. Biller was a pure development guy with much less say.

Since then they've shed Francois Giguere, Greg Sherman, Michel Goulet, Eric Lacroix, even Patrick Roy.
These were all the major voices in the organization.

The management group is always changing. The constant theme is that the GM is always a rookie GM and the rest of management is fairly inexperienced, and has a lack of a successful track record.

Hence why they are always "trying" and failing. Everyone's learning on the job. Even the coaches.

 

[tigervixxxen]

The management group absolutely has changed. Sakic was still playing. MacFarland wasn't in the organization. Biller was a pure development guy with much less say.

Since then they've shed Francois Giguere, Greg Sherman, Michel Goulet, Eric Lacroix, even Patrick Roy.
These were all the major voices in the organization.

The management group is always changing. The constant theme is that the GM is always a rookie GM and the rest of management is fairly inexperienced, and has a lack of a successful track record.

Hence why they are always "trying" and failing. Everyone's learning on the job. Even the coaches.

MacFarland replaced Sherman and that took a decade. They have two AGMs, one that's been entrenched since the beginning. They have the same foundational group of management including Brad Smith, Martineau and Charlotte Graham, which nobody knows what she does exactly. The scouts are largely the same save for the few they've traded out, the pro scouts are the same, Hepple was promoted from within. It's that visible figurehead position that makes people think there's so much change, oh there's a new GM (that's been moved around from one circle to another from within the org) then it's all new management!

 

[bohlmeister]

The management group absolutely has changed. Sakic was still playing. MacFarland wasn't in the organization. Biller was a pure development guy with much less say.

Since then they've shed Francois Giguere, Greg Sherman, Michel Goulet, Eric Lacroix, even Patrick Roy.
These were all the major voices in the organization.

The management group is always changing. The constant theme is that the GM is always a rookie GM and the rest of management is fairly inexperienced, and has a lack of a successful track record.

Hence why they are always "trying" and failing. Everyone's learning on the job. Even the coaches.

The constant theme is that they all came out of, and were trained by, Pierre Lacroix's executive apprenticeship program. This organization is as stale as Queen Elizabeth's crumpets.

PURGE!!!

 

[AvsCOL]

I know if I was a free agent, and Colorado was calling, I'd be looking the other way. They're a huge mess right now, can't blame the kid.

 

[Avsblitzkrieg]

Not sure if you can call the Avs attempts at college free agents, swings. More like they walk up to the plate, just stand there taking three strikes, then turn around and walk back to the dugout.

They were to lazy to swing the bat? Lol

 

[AvsWraith]

What are you talking about. A, these guys didn't refuse to sign, they were never drafted. And your rich getting richer doesn't make sense since their contracts are tightly capped.

I was talking about teams getting guys like Hayes, Vesey, and Chicago getting Panarin and now possibly signing Shalunov.

 

[Foppa2118]

MacFarland replaced Sherman and that took a decade. They have two AGMs, one that's been entrenched since the beginning. They have the same foundational group of management including Brad Smith, Martineau and Charlotte Graham, which nobody knows what she does exactly. The scouts are largely the same save for the few they've traded out, the pro scouts are the same, Hepple was promoted from within. It's that visible figurehead position that makes people think there's so much change, oh there's a new GM (that's been moved around from one circle to another from within the org) then it's all new management!

Sherman had many roles in the organization. Some of which in name only. MacFarland didn't replace his role. He only replaced a small part of it.

The pro scouts are one thing, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find many organizations, if any, that do a full gut job of the organization. There are always holdovers and guys that are promoted from within.

These minor roles have much less say in matters than guys like Giguere, Sherman, EL, Goulet, Roy, MacFarland, and Sakic. Those voices have changed multiple times.

 

[Freudian]

It's not these players. Obviously Avs aren't as attractive as other lesser bottom feeders. The guy gets a year off his ELC and doesn't have to play on the worst team in the league. I didn't expect any of them to sign here nor do I particularly blame Sakic that they didn't. He would have to pull hell of a sales job.

It's just in general. Avs almost never sign any undrafted/unsigned player worth a damn. Haven't since the cap was created.

If the best you can do in the last ten years is Cody Corbett or whatever, shouldn't you seriously start to reconsider how you go about these things?

 

[Cousin Eddie]

It's not these players. Obviously Avs aren't as attractive as other lesser bottom feeders. The guy gets a year off his ELC and doesn't have to play on the worst team in the league. I didn't expect any of them to sign here nor do I particularly blame Sakic that they didn't. He would have to pull hell of a sales job.

It's just in general. Avs almost never sign any undrafted/unsigned player worth a damn. Haven't since the cap was created.

If the best you can do in the last ten years is Cody Corbett or whatever, shouldn't you seriously start to reconsider how you go about these things?

The high profile ones choose the lucrative teams. Then non high profile ones suck. I'm not seeing the issue here that everyone else is. I'm happy that the decent ones are the ones we generally gear the Avs are interested in. Even the decent ones for the most part never turn into anything. I'm not at all saddened by the fact that the Avs don't chase the second tier of college free agents who will become nothing. I'm much more concerned by real issues such as an incompetent management group who throws their money at old men. Or the fact that the only two players the Avs drafted in the last 6 years that have played at least one full NHL season was Landeskog and Mackinnon who both went 1 and 2 in their draft years. (Rants will change that once this season completes but the point still stands).

The college free agency overreaction will happen year after year but it's basically the same for every team in the league outside of NYr/CHI/PIT. It's not a big deal to me. If they weren't going after the big fish I'd be disappointed but that's not the case. They always seem to be linked to the good ones and simply lose out to more desirable teams.

 

[stonehands31]

When did Sherman start his tenure? You could argue he gave up too much in trades, but it seemed like he had a complete vision putting the team together. This team recently has just been a hodgepodge of players where management is trying to find the most value without overpaying possible regardless of the playing style. Ex: Soderberg, Colborne, Comeau, Iginla. With the amount of turnover we've had and the random players acquired, it's no surprise there is zero chemistry and everyone looks like trash.

 

[xbestboybandever]

MacFarland replaced Sherman and that took a decade. They have two AGMs, one that's been entrenched since the beginning. They have the same foundational group of management including Brad Smith, Martineau and Charlotte Graham, which nobody knows what she does exactly. The scouts are largely the same save for the few they've traded out, the pro scouts are the same, Hepple was promoted from within. It's that visible figurehead position that makes people think there's so much change, oh there's a new GM (that's been moved around from one circle to another from within the org) then it's all new management!

I actually think that Greg Sherman did a pretty good job as the GM. He made a lot of solid trades and actually could be looked at as the architect of the numbers that were given out to the younger players with a contract structure in place to try and keep all of them here.

 

[tigervixxxen]

The high profile ones choose the lucrative teams. Then non high profile ones suck. I'm not seeing the issue here that everyone else is. I'm happy that the decent ones are the ones we generally gear the Avs are interested in. Even the decent ones for the most part never turn into anything. I'm not at all saddened by the fact that the Avs don't chase the second tier of college free agents who will become nothing. I'm much more concerned by real issues such as an incompetent management group who throws their money at old men. Or the fact that the only two players the Avs drafted in the last 6 years that have played at least one full NHL season was Landeskog and Mackinnon who both went 1 and 2 in their draft years. (Rants will change that once this season completes but the point still stands).

The college free agency overreaction will happen year after year but it's basically the same for every team in the league outside of NYr/CHI/PIT. It's not a big deal to me. If they weren't going after the big fish I'd be disappointed but that's not the case. They always seem to be linked to the good ones and simply lose out to more desirable teams.

It's all part of it, every little piece feeds into why we are here. No depth and no assets leads to signing plugs. I get it, everyone wants these guys they haven't heard of before, it's not like they would make a big difference. But it's just one part of it, they never close these deals. It's alibi GMing, just look like and say you are trying and that's good enough. It's not just those teams, Dallas is going to get this kid we were in on. As I said before a lot of it is opportunity to young guys, that and promises.

 

[agentblack]

I see both points, and i believe they have been trying but after a while you need to see that "trying" turn into something tangible. That we can see. With our eyes. We keep hearing how this is a results oriented business right? so if you cant at least sign one kid every 3 or4 years that should be a huge area of concern.