Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 18-19 part XV| Trade Everyone!

[avsfan09]

I think the point was who you're overpaying by 1M.

Yeah but regardless of who's being overpaid the one whose contract is much higher has a higher chance of hindering us in the future

 

[Foppa2118]

Well no because neither of them bring the quality of play that Stone does. So that’s a weird comparison.

Neither does Hayes. That's not the point.

The point is, it’s very poor reasoning to support doing something, by saying that even though it's bad (overpaying), it’s less bad than something else you’ve already done.

I think the overall rationale for pursuing Hayes is a little weak. First of all, we can debate what exactly he will command in trade, but it's gonna cost something sizable. Probably a 1st+.

Second of all, he'll be looking for a raise on his $5.175M on a long term deal. He's very unlikely to sign a 2-3 year deal.

The reason being put forth for acquiring Hayes is to play him as a temp #2C, and then draft someone like Cozens, where Hayes can then replace Soda as the #3C.

So what happens to Bowers? We're all pretty high on him and think he has a good shot at being a good all around #3C. Plus there's Compher, Kamenv, and Jost as other possibilities for that role.

If Hayes is gonna be a winger at that price he's gonna need to be a top 6 winger. So that makes it pretty unlikely they pursue another high priced guy like Stone or any one else. So that's the comparison to make if any. UFA vs UFA.

I like Hayes as a player, but saying Calvert is also overpaid by $1M doesn't resolve all of that for me. The only thing that would help is if they didn't give up assets for him, and signed him as a UFA after they spoke with other UFA's. Then the Calvert is overpaid too discussion might have some relevance IMO, since we're just talking about money.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Neither does Hayes. That's not the point.

The point is, it’s very poor reasoning to support doing something, by saying that even though it's bad (overpaying), it’s less bad than something else you’ve already done.

I think the overall rationale for pursuing Hayes is a little weak. First of all, we can debate what exactly he will command in trade, but it's gonna cost something sizable. Probably a 1st+.

Second of all, he'll be looking for a raise on his $5.175M on a long term deal. He's very unlikely to sign a 2-3 year deal.

The reason being put forth for acquiring Hayes is to play him as a temp #2C, and then draft someone like Cozens, where Hayes can then replace Soda as the #3C.

So what happens to Bowers? We're all pretty high on him and think he has a good shot at being a good all around #3C. Plus there's Compher, Kamenv, and Jost as other possibilities for that role.

If Hayes is gonna be a winger at that price he's gonna need to be a top 6 winger. So that makes it pretty unlikely they pursue another high priced guy like Stone or any one else. So that's the comparison to make if any. UFA vs UFA.

I like Hayes as a player, but saying Calvert is also overpaid by $1M doesn't resolve all of that for me. The only thing that would help is if they didn't give up assets for him too. Then the Calvert is overpaid too discussion might have some relevance IMO.

I don’t think anyone here is really clamoring for Hayes. Henchy brought up why the Avs might want Hayes and then possible numbers for his contact came up as you’d expect. I don’t want Hayes unless he comes for cheap and think if we’re gonna get a 2C than we should aim higher than Hayes.

Basically what people are saying is it makes no sense to overpay for bottom 6’ers like Calvert. If your gonna overpay someone make sure it’s a elite talent.

 

[Foppa2118]

I don’t think anyone here is really clamoring for Hayes. Henchy brought up why the Avs might want Hayes and then possible numbers for his contact came up as you’d expect. I don’t want Hayes unless he comes for cheap and think if we’re gonna get a 2C than we should aim higher than Hayes.

Basically what people are saying is it makes no sense to overpay for bottom 6’ers like Calvert. If your gonna overpay someone make sure it’s a elite talent.

The funny thing is I might actually be more interested in bringing in Hayes than you from the sound of it. I think he'd be a good fit as a temp C or a winger, and I think he'll be overpaid by at least a little bit for sure. I'd just like them to do it as a UFA if they're gonna do it.

$1M overpaid might be pushing it but I'll reserve judgement until I see the number. Overpaying AND giving up quality assets for someone that doesn't necessarily address the problem is just a little much for me. GM's should limit it to one or the other IMO.

There's other reasons for this aside from being able to see where they stand with other UFA's like Stone. I'd like to see who they end up drafting with Ottawa's first. I think that could change a lot.

I don't think Hayes solves all the secondary scoring problems by himself. If they get one of the top forwards with high level skills in the 1st, then Hayes would be a good guy to pursue.

If for some reason the Ottawa or Av pick doesn't bring that in, they might be better served by being more aggressive in their pursuit of Stone or another high skill C/W via trade.

That's a big thing to factor in that I don't think has been part of the Hayes debate.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

If the price is Colorado 1st(Top 10 protected) + A prospect that isn't Makar/Timmins/Kaut/Bowers then by all means get it done.



I'd also have no problem paying up to 6M for Hayes on a 5-6 year deal. With his size and production at even strength he'd be a solid 2nd liner for his entire duration here. And he's a versatile guy that can start as the 2C for now but if we draft a Center with Ottawa's pick, we can transition Hayes to the Wing on the 2nd line in 2-3 years from now, or move him to the 3C position and run 3 deep down the middle like what Toronto is doing now with Matthews/Tavares/Kadri.

 

[The Abusement Park]

The funny thing is I might actually be more interested in bringing in Hayes than you from the sound of it. I think he'd be a good fit as a temp C or a winger, and I think he'll be overpaid by at least a little bit for sure. I'd just like them to do it as a UFA if they're gonna do it.

$1M overpaid might be pushing it but I'll reserve judgement until I see the number. Overpaying AND giving up quality assets for someone that doesn't necessarily address the problem is just a little much for me. GM's should limit it to one or the other IMO.

There's other reasons for this aside from being able to see where they stand with other UFA's like Stone. I'd like to see who they end up drafting with Ottawa's first. I think that could change a lot.

I don't think Hayes solves all the secondary scoring problems by himself. If they get one of the top forwards with high level skills in the 1st, then Hayes would be a good guy to pursue.

If for some reason the Ottawa or Av pick doesn't bring that in, they might be better served by being more aggressive in their pursuit of Stone or another high skill C/W via trade.

That's a big thing to factor in that I don't think has been part of the Hayes debate.

Hayes would be fine depending on what he pay him and if we trade for him what we give up. The reasons Henchy proposed make sense and it’d give us a lot of flexibility going forwards. But I’d rather trade assets to get a better 2C than him imo.

 

[CobraAcesS]

The funny thing is I might actually be more interested in bringing in Hayes than you from the sound of it. I think he'd be a good fit as a temp C or a winger, and I think he'll be overpaid by at least a little bit for sure. I'd just like them to do it as a UFA if they're gonna do it.

$1M overpaid might be pushing it but I'll reserve judgement until I see the number. Overpaying AND giving up quality assets for someone that doesn't necessarily address the problem is just a little much for me. GM's should limit it to one or the other IMO.

There's other reasons for this aside from being able to see where they stand with other UFA's like Stone. I'd like to see who they end up drafting with Ottawa's first. I think that could change a lot.

I don't think Hayes solves all the secondary scoring problems by himself. If they get one of the top forwards with high level skills in the 1st, then Hayes would be a good guy to pursue.

If for some reason the Ottawa or Av pick doesn't bring that in, they might be better served by being more aggressive in their pursuit of Stone or another high skill C/W via trade.

That's a big thing to factor in that I don't think has been part of the Hayes debate.

I'll admit for me its heavily based on trying to bring someone in this season without giving up pieces that result in a huge mistake. I also am maybe a little down on the Avs chances to land one of the top guys as a UFA. The Western travel seems to be a legit knock, added with being a team that resides in a place with state income taxes, and not being quite as proven as a playoff team.

You probably should of led with this post though. The one I quoted really made it seem like you got the point of the commentary wrong.

 

[Foppa2118]

I'll admit for me its heavily based on trying to bring someone in this season without giving up pieces that result in a huge mistake. I also am maybe a little down on the Avs chances to land one of the top guys as a UFA. The Western travel seems to be a legit knock, added with being a team that resides in a place with state income taxes, and not being quite as proven as a playoff team.

You probably should of led with this post though. The one I quoted really made it seem like you got the point of the commentary wrong.

The bolded is actually one of the better reasons to pursue Hayes in trade. It could secure someone to help the 2nd line rather than hoping to fill it in UFA.

Overpaying is still overpaying. It doesn't matter if you've done it before with someone worse. As was mentioned, a $6M player overpaid by $1M could hamper the team much more than a $2.85M overpaid by $1M.

Hayes at ~$6M is much tougher to trade or buyout than Calvert at $2.85M.

 

[cgf]

Yeah but regardless of who's being overpaid the one whose contract is much higher has a higher chance of hindering us in the future

That's some mighty fallacious logic there

 

[CobraAcesS]

The bolded is actually one of the better reasons to pursue Hayes in trade. It could secure someone to help the 2nd line rather than hoping to fill it in UFA.

Overpaying is still overpaying. It doesn't matter if you've done it before with someone worse. As was mentioned, a $6M player overpaid by $1M could hamper the team much more than a $2.85M overpaid by $1M.

Hayes at ~$6M is much tougher to trade or buyout than Calvert at $2.85M.

I think if you front loaded it as much as possible it would be fairly easy to move it in the second half of the contract. I get the sentiment though.

 

[Foppa2118]

I think if you front loaded it as much as possible it would be fairly easy to move it in the second half of the contract. I get the sentiment though.

That would definitely help the financial aspect in a trade, but not the cap hit aspect. So you might be able to find younger rebuilding teams with cap space to take them on, but you'd probably have to take a big chunk of salary back to fit them in cap wise on other teams.

I think we were probably speaking generally on this point, but just to point out, Calvert's contract is front loaded too. $3.75M, $2.925M, $1.875M.

Probably for the exact reasons you mentioned. We'll probably end up seeing it utilized too. If they can't trade him then I think they'll buy him out, unless he has a Comeau like turnaround next year.

 

[avsfan09]

That's some mighty fallacious logic there

Pls explain haha?

 

[Freudian]

If Avs are willing to overpay for Hayes, why wouldn't they wait for him to hit free agency?

Overpaying in a trade and then overpaying to keep him around seems like a waste of resources.

 

[Balthazar]

If Avs are willing to overpay for Hayes, why wouldn't they wait for him to hit free agency?

Overpaying in a trade and then overpaying to keep him around seems like a waste of resources.

If someone else is overpaying for him in a trade they are going to try hard to re-sign him and he will likely never become a free agent. That's the risk here.

I'm slowly warming up to Hayes TBH. His size alone is a big plus for a 2nd line like ours with the likes of Kerfoot, Jost and JTC.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

We better not overpay for someone like Hayes. We have the cap space and assets to target better players tbh.

The Avs are not competing for anything this year. Wait until the summer and then fix the brutal secondary scoring.

 

[CobraAcesS]

We better not overpay for someone like Hayes. We have the cap space and assets to target better players tbh.

The Avs are not competing for anything this year. Wait until the summer and then fix the brutal secondary scoring.

Why in the off-season though? There are plenty of teams realistically out of it, and even more competition bidding on players in trade. Can we really sit and hope for a reset every off-season? I get it if people want to go after a top UFA, but I just don't see us pulling those types of guys until we do some damage.

One player right now would push guys like Wilson and Ghetto out of the top six, or potentially one of Jost, Compher, or Kerfoot as well when we're healthy.

When the fire is going out is it better to let it go out and try to re-light it, or should we try and throw some fuel on it while it's still burning?

 

[cgf]

Pls explain haha?

Just that there’s no reason why a player with a higher cap hit would pose more of a problem to our cap if overpaid by a mil than a smaller contract that’s an overpay by a mil. If both players are worth their contracts if we retained 1M on them, then the more desired player would be the one that has less negative impact on our cap not necessarily the cheaper one.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Why in the off-season though? There are plenty of teams realistically out of it, and even more competition bidding on players in trade. Can we really sit and hope for a reset every off-season? I get it if people want to go after a top UFA, but I just don't see us pulling those types of guys until we do some damage.

If we can trade and sign a top player like Stone at the deadline or get a 2nd liner at a good price then sure do it. However, we shouldn't make panic moves just because our secondary scoring is terrible, everyone knew it was going to be awful and nothing was done to improve it. There is going to be a lot of options in the summer, either trades or UFA signings.

 

[Balthazar]

If we can trade and sign a top player like Stone at the deadline or get a 2nd liner at a good price then sure do it. However, we shouldn't make panic moves just because our secondary scoring is terrible, everyone knew it was going to be awful and nothing was done to improve it. There is going to be a lot of options in the summer, either trades or UFA signings.

That's never, ever, the case.

 

[Balthazar]

Every year people think it will be a great UFA summer, or that their GM will be very active on the draft floor. It never happens. If you want to fix your team long term you do it at the deadline and if the guy is a good fit you re-up him before the end of the year. A la Evander Kane.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

That's never, ever, the case.

There was a bunch of options last summer

 

[Balthazar]

There was a bunch of options last summer

Are you referring to the guys who were causing trouble to their teams like Karlsson, ROR, Pacioretty and Skinner?

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Are you referring to the guys who were causing trouble to their teams like Karlsson, ROR, Pacioretty and Skinner?

You said there is never much available in the summer and yet you can go back to last summer to see there was. Hoffman a 60 point winger on a good contract, a better player than Hayes, was shopped practically for nothing last summer. Don't tell me there was nothing available.

 

[CobraAcesS]

If we can trade and sign a top player like Stone at the deadline or get a 2nd liner at a good price then sure do it. However, we shouldn't make panic moves just because our secondary scoring is terrible, everyone knew it was going to be awful and nothing was done to improve it. There is going to be a lot of options in the summer, either trades or UFA signings.

I think the TDL is too late, but a move now could make a much bigger impact. Obviously I'm not advocating for a rental. If it's a guy that is a pending UFA there needs to be conditions on the pick or talks with his agent prior. I have to admit I'm completely on board with the sentiment that at the TDL is too late.

 

[Balthazar]

You said there is never much available in the summer and yet you can go back to last summer to see there was. Hoffman a 60 point winger on a good contract, a better player than Hayes, was shopped practically for nothing last summer. Don't tell me there was nothing available.

Hoffman's situation was exceptional and sure doesn't happen every year. No one here wanted Hoffman in the AVS locker room anyway.