News Article: Auston Matthews - August 1st., Contract Crickets

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Seems like Owners being able to spend money like that is an advantage. I’m not worried at all about MLSE’s money. If they couldn’t do it they wouldn’t.
As a fan, all I care about is cap.

Agreed - although it should come with some advantages saying let's get Nylander at 8.8M similar to Meier but instead of the signing bonuses being 50%, we could do 92% for Nylander....so Nylander is getting the $ sooner than Meier and is able to use the funds to build more wealth.

$1 today is worth more than $1 8 months from now with inflation etc.
 
The alternative approach is to just sign Matthews at the Matthews rate, sign Nylander for anything in the $9 million range and just ride through a scheduled down year in 2024-25 and worry about contending once the Tavares contract runs out.
I've been saying this to everyone. It won't be that fun but is the smarter longterm move.
 
What? Paying up front costs any business money. Businesses either have to borrow the money, or take out money they could be investing to pay earlier.
MLSE is going to have cash on hand. They're not putting seasonal salaries into high-yield investments because they have an extra couple months.
It makes the player harder to trade.
No it doesn't. It means that the new team has to pay less than their cap hit and salary over the remaining term, which increases options and value. It allows a team like Toronto to trade money for asset value with no cap considerations.
Now - I ask again, because you're not answering. What is the benefit to the Leafs.
As I said, it increases future trade value and options, and helps mitigate tax disadvantages that Toronto experiences.
 
It's an advantage that they are not utilizing. That is my point.

Why are we giving players free things just because we can? The players have not given us anything in return.

If the Leafs didn't get them full signing bonuses, it's not like their AAV would be higher - they already set the highest AAV in the leagues for their terms.

When you give something for free, it has no value and gets taken for granted. If the Leafs did not give everyone full signing bonuses, and demanded a discount for it - now it's worthwhile for both parties.

Stop giving up full signing bonuses for free.
The Leafs get a signature on the contract and a happy player, that’s their goal. They treat the signing bonus as an advantage like other teams use taxes. I’ve seen your other posts and understand what you’re saying but i don’t see the issue.
 
MLSE is going to have cash on hand. They're not putting seasonal salaries into high-yield investments because they have an extra couple months.

No it doesn't. It means that the new team has to pay less than their cap hit and salary over the remaining term, which increases options and value. It allows a team like Toronto to trade money for asset value with no cap considerations.

As I said, it increases future trade value and options, and helps mitigate tax disadvantages that Toronto experiences.

MLSE is 100% investing their funds. No business sits on cash like that. Why would you? Even my car insurance, home insurance, Amazon Prime, etc. gives me a 10% discount for paying upfront yearly instead of monthly. Why? The argument that MLSE is financially irresponsible and is losing money to inflation is a very weak one, you should know that.

What are you talking about? The new team has to pay the same salary every additional year. Teams DO NOT want to pay full signing bonus. It limits the teams ability to trade them. If you trade Matthews let's say at year 6 on July 2nd of a 8 year contract - the team still has to pay the full signing bonus year 7 and 8 - which a lot of teams would not like to do.

Tax advantage is a player benefit, not a team benefit.

Basically, your entire argument is give them full signing bonuses because teams would rather pay signing bonus than the salary over the course of the year for the remainder of the contract? Which is factually not true given teams don't sign their own players with full signing bonuses. You're limiting the trade market to basically the last year of the deal after the signing bonus is paid, at which point you can just give them a signing bonus the last year and get the same result.

The Leafs get a signature on the contract and a happy player, that’s their goal. They treat the signing bonus as an advantage like other teams use taxes. I’ve seen your other posts and understand what you’re saying but i don’t see the issue.

The Leafs are getting the player because they are paying more than every other team. They're throwing in the signing bonus for free. Remove the signing bonus and the player still signs, because no other team is giving them the full signing bonus. Especially in Marner/Matthews case as RFA's.
 
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Agreed - although it should come with some advantages saying let's get Nylander at 8.8M similar to Meier but instead of the signing bonuses being 50%, we could do 92% for Nylander....so Nylander is getting the $ sooner than Meier and is able to use the funds to build more wealth.

$1 today is worth more than $1 8 months from now with inflation etc.
Yeah I get that and that is obviously something they could and probably do negotiate with.
It’s no longer much of an advantage though.
 
MLSE is 100% investing their funds. No business sits on cash like that. Why would you? Even my car insurance, home insurance, etc. gives me a 10% discount for paying upfront yearly instead of monthly. Why? The argument that MLSE is financially irresponsible and is losing money to inflation is a very weak one, you should know that.

What are you talking about? The new team has to pay the same salary every additional year. Teams DO NOT want to pay full signing bonus. It limits the teams ability to trade them. If you trade Matthews let's say at year 6 on July 2nd of a 8 year contract - the team still has to pay the full signing bonus year 7 and 8 - which a lot of teams would not like to do.

Tax advantage is a player benefit, not a team benefit.

Basically, your entire argument is give them full signing bonuses because teams would rather pay signing bonus than the salary over the course of the year for the remainder of the contract? Which is factually not true given teams don't sign their own players with full signing bonuses.



The Leafs are getting the player because they are paying more than every other team. They're throwing in the signing bonus for free. Remove the signing bonus and the player still signs, because no other team is giving them the full signing bonus. Especially in Marner/Matthews case as RFA's.
I don’t think anyone would argue they haven’t been poor negotiators, that I agree with. Like I said all I care about is cap hit, I don’t care how the player gets his money
 
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I don’t think anyone would argue they haven’t been poor negotiators, that I agree with. Like I said all I care about is cap hit, I don’t care how the player gets his money

I agree, and if the player wants a full signing bonus (which only the Leafs offer) - they should ask for a lower cap hit in return.

The player can take the money July 1st, go invest it, and make even more money by the end of the year.
 
Just to throw this out there for anyone interested - and utilizing what has come up as a main factor in contracts is Primary points (goals and primary assists) - and also recognizing that many are 'meh' on the /60 stuff. This utilizes his actualy Ice time 5on5 during his 2nd contract and his actual primary points - nothing /60.

This is Matthews 3rd contract - so can we compare him to other prominent Centers and their third contracts, all relative to cap hits / cap %s.. So if we take a list of these players (but let's keep it to a minimum of that they signed atleast 5 years on their 3rd deals):
Sidney Crosby
Jason Spezza
Evgeni Malkin
Nathan Mackinnon
Jonathan Toews
Steven Stamkos
Evgeny Kuznetsov
Ryan Getzlaf
Henrik Zetterberg (both wing/center but i added him)
Anze Kopitar
Logan Couture
Dylan Larkin
Pierre-Luc Dubois
Eric Staal
Niklas Backstrom

so over the course of THEIR 2ND CONTRACTS versus what their teams signed them for on their 3rd contracts as star players. this group of players ON AVERAGE produced the following numbers and the teams paid them moving forward:
Primary points per game - 0.46
Average CAP HIT per primary point dollars - $237,747
Average CAP HIT % per primary point (based on the cap when they signed their 3rd contracts - 0.28% cap hit per primary point

Auston Matthews what he has done in his 2nd contract:
Primary points per game - 0.68
Average CAP HIT per primary point dollars - YET TO BE DETERMINED

So basically he produced 34% more than the average primary points production of these stars. if we were to take Auston's average of .68 primary points per game and project that into an 82 game schedule (you should always project your players to play 82 games), based on the average dollar per primary point these 15 stars were paid on their 3rd contracts you would end up with:

0.68 (auston's post ELC primary point / game) * 82 games THEN x $237,747 (average of what teams paid these 15 stars per primary point on 3rd contract =$13,190,151.50
on a 5 year deal that would be $65,950,608.00. it would tie him for the 3rd lowest (cheapest) cap hit % per primary point out of these 16 names, only more expensive than Couture and Spezza, and equal to Crosby. He has the highest real production OVER the average by 34% (how ironic). so if we did a PDO type stat, adding up these two factors - Cap hit % per primary point & Primary point production % over/under the average - Auston is at 34%, 1 % higher than Crosby

so as a BASE, based on what has been discussed, Primary point production at 5on5 - Auston looks to be 13.2 million / season. but then having what he accomplished, outproducing everyone on that list, all the big guys - are we expecting him to be paid on the average? what non production value gets added in? i am fairly certain my math is correct, my method may be weird, but i wanted to see if i could show a DIFFERENT way than Dekes does sometimes
 
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Its kind of ironic in a Salary Cap World now where a player now entering his 3rd contract is looking for term and long-term security of a guaranteed contract trying to leverage his most productive years of the next 4-5 against the later years of his career when his play falls off. For the team the throw away final years at cheap cost $$ should lower that AAV over the term of the deal factoring for decline.

If Matthews hypnotically said "I want $15 mil for the next 5 years upfront most in signing bonus with full NMC" and then I'll give you steep discount for the final 3 with a limited NTC.

ie. $15 mil + 15 mil + 15 mil + 15 mil + $15 + $7.5 mil + $3.5 mil + $2.0 mil = $88 mil over 8 years = $11.0 Mil AAV X 8 years for Toronto with CH% lower than current on a $92 mil. ceiling.

Auston would be getting paid at a rate of $15 mil ($75 total) for the next 5 years of service cashing in HUGE, and then Leafs team gets the benefit of averaging over term to come in at $11.0 mil annually and actually slashing $600k mil AAV off his current amount and able to move on in the later years if they want to. With each passing year the cap increases the C.H% goes down and better surrounding depth.

That is a team friendly and player friendly contract that benefits both sides and why I can see Treliving pushing for more term to lower the AAV based on this concept.

Matthews wanting only 4-5 years at his +$14 mil only hurts the team with an AAV at that rate.

Same concept applies to Willy ... You want $10.5 mil per (front loaded) for the next 4 years fine, then Leafs get the next 2 extra years at $5.5 mil = 6 years at $53 mil total = $8.83 AAV.. (which is the AAV BT is rumoured to be offering),

When both player and team are pulling in the same direction its a WIN -WIN for both sides of the equation. But Leaf players seem to want to Win, but they also want the Leafs team too Lose.

View attachment 727227

Dubas handed out Zero-Sum contracts, and I'm hoping that Treliving an experienced GM will be looking for Non-Zero-Sum deals this time around, and convincing the players to buy-in.

That is how a SMART GM does a Doover or Reset to buck current trending on past mistakes. :teach:

Yeah, and what I also find unconventionally strange about Matthews' reported preference for shorter NBA style contracts is that you'll have down seasons that are misaligned to your contract asks. You won't always be that 21 year old kid with unlimited potential and unlimited AAV ask... you'd have to be productive like a Leon Draisaitl to be hitting peak AAV demands every so often. If an Erik Karlsson had taken a "bet on myself" approach, signed very short dealsand then hit string of injuries over the past five years it would have tanked his finances.
 
It's an advantage that they are not utilizing. That is my point.

Why are we giving players free things just because we can? The players have not given us anything in return.

If the Leafs didn't get them full signing bonuses, it's not like their AAV would be higher - they already set the highest AAV in the leagues for their terms.

When you give something for free, it has no value and gets taken for granted. If the Leafs did not give everyone full signing bonuses, and demanded a discount for it - now it's worthwhile for both parties.

Stop giving up full signing bonuses for free.

From what I notice in contracts there are a few variables at play:

-Term.
-Annual Salary.
-Base Salary vs Signing Bonus Structure.
-No Trade Clause.
-No Movement Clause.

Doesn't really seem like all these things have to be given out on a silver platter all at once.

If you want a NMC, pay back some of your salary ask. Want your money up front? Downgrade your NMC to a NTC.
 
From what I notice in contracts there are a few variables at play:

-Term.
-Annual Salary.
-Base Salary vs Signing Bonus Structure.
-No Trade Clause.
-No Movement Clause.

Doesn't really seem like all these things have to be given out on a silver platter all at once.

If you want a NMC, pay back some of your salary ask. Want your money up front? Downgrade your NMC to a NTC.

Exactly, that's what I'm arguing. People here are arguing against me saying MLSE should give the player everything just because they can and it makes the player happy.

Let's look at Matthews in particular

Term: 5 years - lowest term, Matthews advantage

AAV: 11..6M as a RFA - Higher than Pasta's 8 year contract coming off a 61G 113P season - Matthews advantage

Full Signing Bonus : Matthews Advantage

NMC + NTC : Matthews advantage.

He was handed the highest contract, with every benefit for no concessions. Seriously, Matthews in particular pays taxes like he's living in Arizona/Florida but gets paid like he pays taxes in Switzerland. All the talk about Tkachuk/Point/Hedman/Stamkos get tax breaks - Matthews got those same breaks and still made sure to get every penny he could get as well as everything else

The team got no concessions. They couldn't even get an 8 year deal out of it.
 
We all want a cup, don’t assume your disagreeing means I don’t. It’s not about having a legacy player here, it’s all about the cup. I’m willing to hitch my horse to Matthews long term because he is a phenomenal player.

8 years gets more savings on his aav. He can have his deal structured as he wants with whatever trade protection he desires, as long as that aav is as low as it possibly can. The lowere the cap hit, the more flexibility we have to add elsewhere.

5 years would mean highest cap hit, less flexibility, and no way you get that with no trade protection. That’s pie in the sky thinking.

It’s a shite or get off the pot scenario here.
Lock him up long term, take the risk in order to reap any benefits from that, or just move him now. There is no sense in being half pregnant about this.
This is the whole reason why this deal should gave been done in June, or trade him.
I do not believe longer term gets you a better aav. Pay firbthe absence of a no trade, but he is only an asset if you can trade him
 
Just to throw this out there for anyone interested - and utilizing what has come up as a main factor in contracts is Primary points (goals and primary assists) - and also recognizing that many are 'meh' on the /60 stuff. This utilizes his actualy Ice time 5on5 during his 2nd contract and his actual primary points - nothing /60.

This is Matthews 3rd contract - so can we compare him to other prominent Centers and their third contracts, all relative to cap hits / cap %s.. So if we take a list of these players (but let's keep it to a minimum of that they signed atleast 5 years on their 3rd deals):
Sidney Crosby
Jason Spezza
Evgeni Malkin
Nathan Mackinnon
Jonathan Toews
Steven Stamkos
Evgeny Kuznetsov
Ryan Getzlaf
Henrik Zetterberg (both wing/center but i added him)
Anze Kopitar
Logan Couture
Dylan Larkin
Pierre-Luc Dubois
Eric Staal
Niklas Backstrom

so over the course of THEIR 2ND CONTRACTS versus what their teams signed them for on their 3rd contracts as star players. this group of players ON AVERAGE produced the following numbers and the teams paid them moving forward:
Primary points per game - 0.46
Average CAP HIT per primary point dollars - $237,747
Average CAP HIT % per primary point (based on the cap when they signed their 3rd contracts - 0.28% cap hit per primary point

Auston Matthews what he has done in his 2nd contract:
Primary points per game - 0.68
Average CAP HIT per primary point dollars - YET TO BE DETERMINED

So basically he produced 34% more than the average primary points production of these stars. if we were to take Auston's average of .68 primary points per game and project that into an 82 game schedule (you should always project your players to play 82 games), based on the average dollar per primary point these 15 stars were paid on their 3rd contracts you would end up with:

0.68 (auston's post ELC primary point / game) * 82 games THEN x $237,747 (average of what teams paid these 15 stars per primary point on 3rd contract =$13,190,151.50
on a 5 year deal that would be $65,950,608.00. it would tie him for the 3rd lowest (cheapest) cap hit % per primary point out of these 16 names, only more expensive than Couture and Spezza, and equal to Crosby. He has the highest real production OVER the average by 34% (how ironic). so if we did a PDO type stat, adding up these two factors - Cap hit % per primary point & Primary point production % over/under the average - Auston is at 34%, 1 % higher than Crosby

so as a BASE, based on what has been discussed, Primary point production at 5on5 - Auston looks to be 13.2 million / season. but then having what he accomplished, outproducing everyone on that list, all the big guys - are we expecting him to be paid on the average? what non production value gets added in? i am fairly certain my math is correct, my method may be weird, but i wanted to see if i could show a DIFFERENT way than Dekes does sometimes
actually - maybe this WOULD be him taking a discount - accepting a deal that basically has him near the average of $/production. so 13.34 - could the case be made for taking less if that was the figure?
 
Seems like Owners being able to spend money like that is an advantage. I’m not worried at all about MLSE’s money. If they couldn’t do it they wouldn’t.
As a fan, all I care about is cap.

I'd like to see those bonuses and goodies used to depress cap hits. Don't think that's being used in an "and or" style but more like "and and."
 
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I've never heard the theory that he would take a lower AAV on an 8 year deal than on a 5 year deal or that he wants an 8 year deal at all.

Of all the reports I've recalled seeing, it's the shorter the contract, the lower the cap, the higher you go the more prohibitively expensive it gets.

I don't Matthews agent will see 27,28, 29 year old seasons as less valuable than his 32, 32, 33.
 
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Sorry - let me clarify. It costs MLSE money, which gets passed down to the fans.

It's a net benefit for no one but the players, and it does not help the Leafs. It does not make the player easier to trade, it makes them harder to trade because very few teams want to or can pay the signing bonus upfront every single year. If you're trading the players any sooner than their last year - the other team is now stuck with the signing bonus every year - making it harder to trade. If anythng, the Leafs can just give the player a full signing bonus on the last year and that would make it easier to trade the last year and every other year.

Why should the Leafs be the only team to give full signing bonuses and still pay the players the highest AAV in the NHL? What concessions are the players making?

A player with front loaded bonuses is potentially a much more valuable trade asset during their final years, especially to a budget team, where they would have the option to acquire a 10+ million dollar player for like 4-5 mil in real dollars.

Imo fans tend to care too much about bonus structure stuff
 
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I don't Matthews agent will see 27,28, 29 year old seasons as less valuable than his 32, 32, 33.

I agree, that's why I think a 6 year deal is perfect because his 27-33 aged seasons will be of similar quality...

Where the 8 years goes off the rails for me is that the AAV goes up if we lock in years 34, 35 and 36. Like we include more, worse years and pay for the privilege of it? A 6 year deal allows both parties to reassess and re-negotiate those later years.
 
A player with front loaded bonuses is potentially a much more valuable trade asset during their final years, especially to a budget team, where they would have the option to acquire a 10+ million dollar player for like 4-5 mil in real dollars.

Imo fans tend to care too much about bonus structure stuff

I agree. So, give them full signing bonuses on the final year only. The idea of giving full signing bonuses for 8 years to benefit for 1 year, and make it harder to trade them for 7 years with no give from the players side makes no sense.
 
MLSE is 100% investing their funds. No business sits on cash like that. Why would you? Even my car insurance, home insurance, Amazon Prime, etc. gives me a 10% discount for paying upfront yearly instead of monthly. Why? The argument that MLSE is financially irresponsible and is losing money to inflation is a very weak one, you should know that.

What are you talking about? The new team has to pay the same salary every additional year. Teams DO NOT want to pay full signing bonus. It limits the teams ability to trade them. If you trade Matthews let's say at year 6 on July 2nd of a 8 year contract - the team still has to pay the full signing bonus year 7 and 8 - which a lot of teams would not like to do.

Tax advantage is a player benefit, not a team benefit.

Basically, your entire argument is give them full signing bonuses because teams would rather pay signing bonus than the salary over the course of the year for the remainder of the contract? Which is factually not true given teams don't sign their own players with full signing bonuses. You're limiting the trade market to basically the last year of the deal after the signing bonus is paid, at which point you can just give them a signing bonus the last year and get the same result.
MLSE invests funds, but they do not invest all of their funds, They are a multi-billion dollar company with 9-figure yearly expenses, and they have cash on hand at any given time. They have constant expenses that they need to cover, and we're talking pretty small differences in time. You are exaggerating the impact it has for a company like MLSE.

Also, nobody is arguing that it is a financial benefit for the Leafs in the first place. It is a financial benefit for the player, that is mitigating a financial disadvantage that Toronto brings in taxes. It is trading financial benefits for hockey benefits. That is the price of doing business with high caliber players in a very high tax location.

As for other teams, they would happily pay salaries on July 1st if it means they're paying less overall, which they would if MLSE was picking up a portion of the tab in the form of the signing bonus for that year. It's again MLSE using their financial might to provide hockey-related benefit.
 
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