Why Ottawa will win
1. Coaching. Scotty Bowman is widely considered greatest coach of all time and has an unmatched track record of success. Furthermore, this roster fits Scotty Bowman well, with a high skill level and two-way winning players throughout the lineup. Pete Green is a clear step down, and is coaching a team without strong defensive forwards.
2. Goaltending. Bill Durnan is a clear step up from Johnny Bower. Durnan was ranked #82 in HOH's last top 100 players and Bower was not ranked. Durnan was ranked #14 in the top goalies project and Bower was ranked #19. Kevin Allen and Bob Duff ranked Durnan 6th all time and Bower 18th all time in their 2002 book Without Fear -- and this is a book that Bower contributed to! Durnan was rated among the best of all time by some and Bower never really reached that level.
3. Forwards. Ottawa has three very strong two-way lines that can play against the highest competition. Pittsburgh has patched together forward lines with high VsX but did so by consistently drafting players who were overrated by the VxX model, such as secondary players who played with superstars.
Mike Bossy was an elite goal scorer with a completely resilient game who scored against all opposition and couldn't be slowed down. Dickie Moore peaked as arguably the best forward on the greatest team of all time, pairing a high-skill game with unmatched grit, will to win, and hard work. This is a pair of wingers whose game holds up against the best. Pittsburgh doesn't have a forward who can touch either of them. Johnny Bucyk was a paper tiger whose scoring dried up against top teams and who relied on an Orr/Esposito power play to score. Joe Malone was a top early era scorer who is miscast as the best player on an ATD first line. Vladimir Martinec is a decent ATD first liner but you can't rely on him to drive a line either.
Ottawa's Russian Five unit fits with Scotty Bowman and fits with the players. It is the ideal situation for Igor Larionov and Alexei Kasatonov to thrive. Sergei Kapustin should get a ton of goals -- remember he scored 60+ goals in under 100 games in top international tournaments for the Soviet National team, and he's playing with some great playmakers here. And Sergei Gonchar's high-skill, high IQ game combined with his penchant for pinching will absolutely thrive in this situation. Compare to Pittsburgh's second line. I actually like the Lemaire-Cournoyer core better than Pittsburgh's first line, but Bun Cook is a bit over his head here. Ottawa's line is just at another level for driving possession and scoring chances.
Toews-Hossa is a duo for the ages, playing like a coach's dream while shutting down top lines and posting big plus-minus numbers, both on the road and at home, for a dynasty. Pavol Demitra brings the Team Slovakia chemistry and some additional east-west creativity to put them over the top offensively. Pittsburgh's third line is a scoring duo of Hawerchuk and Anderson with Rusty Crawford tacked on. I don't see the line cohesion or purpose.
4. Why will Ottawa's edge at forward outplay Pittsburgh's edge at defence? Balanced teams beat unbalanced teams. I can't think of a Stanley Cup winner in history who was so unbalanced towards their defence corps. The 70s Canadiens at least had Guy Lafleur and Pittsburgh is sorely missing an offensive catalyst like Lafleur or Bossy. Maybe the 07 Ducks, but they at least had the best checking line in the league. Pittsburgh doesn't even have a checking line.
Ottawa's forward lines are built to apply two-way pressure and win puck possession all over the ice. Pittsburgh's forward lines are not. While the strong Pittsburgh defence may help create possessions from the back end, Pittsburgh's forward lines are not built to sustain this pressure.
A few specific notes to respond to my opponent.
70 for Larionov and 50 for Kapustin? 50 for Kapustin????
That doesn't even deserve a response. Come on.
This monomania with the VsX model has led you to draft players who are overrated by the model. We all know there are many factors that aren't considered by the model, especially the quality of ice time and teammates. I think we're better than just adding up VsX.
Yeah, Bobby Orr was the all-time great puck mover from the back end. He also spent much of his short career being a liability against top teams burning him the other way, due to his knees deteriorating and limiting his mobility. Red Kelly was a great puck-mover himself, sometimes called the most valuable player on the Detroit dynasty, and he didn't have any defensive issues against anyone.
Seibert is hard for me to rate. I understand why you rate him so highly, but he was largely forgotten by history and spent his prime years unable to make the first all-star team, both when voted by writers and coaches. Yes he can rush the puck but does he integrate well into a successful team attack?
Sergei Gonchar was the best puck-moving defenceman of his generation and John Carlson is right there among his generation. Hollett is clearly the #6 out of the 6 defencemen mentioned here.
Don't forget that Bobby Orr himself can be exposed at times. And Ottawa's forwards provide much better support to the defencemen.
Sure, go ahead and check Bossy with Rusty Crawford. Bossy played against much better LWs and still scored. He scored in the playoffs, he scored in the Canada Cups, he scored against top teams. Mike Bossy could not be shut down and Rusty Crawford is not the man to do it.
When was Sergei Fedorov ever shut down in the playoffs? He was an absolute playoff monster. Saying he's going to be shut down by physical play sounds like a Don Cherry take circa 1995.
I will concede Marian Hossa had some playoff struggles as the #1 offensive player on his line. While he could dominate possession, he lacked the creativity and vision to break down a set defence and generate dangerous scoring chances. Fortunately he's playing with linemates who have the vision and creativity to create those chances. However, I don't ever remember Hossa being ineffective because of physicality in the playoffs. Can you point to a playoff series where he was ineffective because of physicality (not because he was asked to do too much offensively)?
What do you think about the fact that Bucyk's even strength scoring dried up against top opponents, even when playing with Bobby Orr?
Moore won two Art Ross trophies. That's not what you see from a 5th or 6th best player on a team. Maybe he had the 5th or 6th best career but his peak was legit. The Moore-Richard-Richard was Montreal's best line and Dickie Moore was as good as anyone on that line.
Can you provide anything to back up your contention that Bossy was weak defensively? I will concede Bossy was weak defensively when he entered the league, and Al Arbour would take him off the ice in defensive situations when he was a rookie. But Bossy was a very proud man who hated to be taken off the ice and hated to be subpar in any area, and he worked his ass off to become a good defensive player on a dominant two-way line.
Cook/Cournoyer certanily better offensively than Kapustin/Larionov? I like Cournoyer but this is Bun Cook, not Bill Cook. Let's be serious.
I can only assume you know very little about Sergei Kapustin when you assign him a VsX of 50. In 98 games for the Soviet national team at the World Championships, Olympic Games, and Canada Cups from 1974 to 1983, Kapustin scored 66 goals and 106 points in 98 games.
The Russian line does not rely on outskating on an individual basis. They rely on having two players attack one defender to force small-area 2-on-1s and winning those battles, and on skating between checks rather than at checks. When they beat you with speed, they do it by circling back and sending a pass to a player coming at full speed against the flat-footed defence. It's not because they're faster skaters as individuals but because they create speed differentials with their tactical play.
1. Ottawa is blown out of the water on the blue line
Ottawa's forwards, which are not offensively superior (collectively) to Pittsburgh's are facing a pair of insanely good #1 pairings, that are going to eat up 90-95% of the game, time wise. This is significant in match up hockey.
You have at least slight liabilities defensively there with Gonchar and Carlson, who will collective play 30+ minutes a night.
Pittsburgh has no such issue on the blue line, unless you want to include Hollett, the guy who's playing at most, 10 minutes a night, largely on the PP and offensive only situations.
Where are the liabilities for Pittsburgh on the back end?
Orr?
Rather comical considering he's playing next to Stevens, a top 20 defensemen and probably on the Mount Rushmore of Defensive Dmen, ever. I can throw Laperriere up there and we'd still be laughing at Bob Goldham playing on a top pairing in a draft this size. I can't stress how massive the gap is here, not just in overall talent but the historical rankings.
Seibert? One of the greatest shot blockers of his time? A hard lock top 20 Dman of all time, some have him inside top 15. A Chris Pronger esque player for a more modern comparison. Liability? Relative to whom? Gonchar? Don't make me die an early death there sir. And again, he’s supported by Laperriere, one of the best stay at home players post Harvey.
The fact is the 2 guys who are the primary rushers from the back end are both regarded as at least good defensively all time and relative to their era were certainly better than that. Orr’s dominance on the PK for example is hard to ignore. Might have been more about puck possession than shot blocking and flipping the puck down the ice but it worked and working next to Scott Stevens there or at ES?
Bobby Orr can go in as he would in peak performance KNOWING Scotty Stevens is back there covering up at a minimum.
That’s a major blunder I think most teams make when drafting Orr. They think the job is done on the back end for a while and over commit on F’s when F’s are far deeper a position to pull from.
Pittsburgh is built like Ottawa's first dynasty. I have responsible and/or outright good defensive F's on every single line, which means you'll see the rotation of F's to cover up the D men pinching and outright rushing into the offensive zone.
This is EXACTLY how Pete Green coached the Ottawa teams during his first tenure. You can see their insane offensive dominance during this time period in the Pete Green bio.
Always have a 3rd F high, cover up for the point/cover point (Dman) going in deep. This really took off when Green literally (like in real life) moved Cyclone Taylor back to the point position to take advantage of his speed and overall skill, over the length of a hockey rink rather than constraining him to a F spot where you were more restricted because of no forward passing. It continued on with Hamby Shore when Taylor moved out West. It was a distinct style, specifically highlighted in the bio on Green.
This way of playing is TAILOR MADE for Bobby Orr and Earl Seibert and Pete Green used his players in such a fashion, in real life.
2. Defensive ability of the Pittsburgh F’s is being glossed over.
Defensively how are Pitt's forwards?
Bucyk = responsible
Martinec = above average
Hell even Malone was shown BY YOU to be at least responsible during his time period which not all the scoring C's of the early eras can lay claim to.
Just to sidetrack into the offensive comparison quickly:
Bucyk = 88.7 (don’t forget about Bobby)
Malone = 95*
Martinec = 82.5*
266.2
vs
Moore = 85.4
Savard = 85.5
Bossy = 94.8
265.7
Ottawa's top line is a wash from a pure statistical output standpoint and you are running them into Stevens-Orr and then Lappy-Seibert all night long. It's night and day brother.
*95 is per Dreak's calculations and I settled on 82.5 (Hossa's a good comp) after originally placing him higher in the 85-90 range.
So even if you want to dock Malone a few points or Martinec further, it still doesn't present much of a gap.
And you're going to try and throw the odd "you drafted a bunch of overrated VsX players" argument as if any of the players you're talking about are being asked to carry a burden more than they did in real life, i can shut that down completely:
Consider:
Joe Malone was the primary offensive weapon on many of his teams. He literally won scoring titles over the likes of Newsy Lalonde and Frank Nighbor and Cy Denneny or finished just behind the likes. As others have said, he was a strong/fortunte pick as he absolutely represents quality 1st line scoring ability, namely putting the puck in the net, which is kind of great next to Bucyk and Martinec, w/the likes of Orr/Seibert pushing the pace from the back end.
He represents from a purely offensive standpoint AS MUCH as your 2nd round pick, Mike Bossy. It’s certainly not much of a gap even if one exists. Unless of course the 90 to 95 range is high for Malone.
Dickie Moore was never the best player on his team. He was never the unquestioned best player on his own line unless I’m crazy. I may be. Back to back scoring titles. Yep. Can’t argue it.
Finished rather low in the Hart voting though despite those Art Ross wins. Let's not sleep on that.
Let’s also not pretend like Moore’s got Henri Richard here. THAT is a major point that needs to be brought up. Moore doesn’t have a C who’s going to do any of the things Richard did away from the puck. Certainly not remotely close to it.
Moore doesn’t scare me that much in this series. His 7 year VsX is barely better than Bucyk’s 10 year score. He doesn’t have a C remotely like Richard and Mike Bossy doesn’t play like Maurice Richard. Scoring goals? Sure. But he doesn’t have Richard’s edge. It’s a very different set of line mates.
Again, this is why I hate this fudge game as it pertains to painting with a broad brush. I think Bucyk is in a hellova lot more advantageous situation to replicate that oft cited "overrated" VsX score. Not only did Bucyk have a nice scoring peak, has the man most responsible for getting there, on this roster, and his longevity can't be denied either, something you can deny w/Moore.
I already touched on Bossy’s issues. One it’s match up based. Two, he doesn’t have a C remotely like Trottier or a LW like Gillies or Tonelli who are going to fly at any opposing players who go near him (Bossy).
Bossy simply will almost never have an “easy” shift out there. There is no super-duper Scotty Bowman way of getting him off a tough defensive winger or elite defensive defensemen.
Getting back to the defensive abilities of Pittsburgh:
Cook = great (against Bossy)
Lemaire = above average/good
Cournoyer = likely below average though he lasted a long time under Bowman so how bad was he really in the 70’s?
Crawford = great (against Bossy)
Hawerchuk = responsible
Anderson = average to above average
Metz = great (against Bossy)
Goyettte = above average
Guerin = responsible
You can spin it however you’d like but Bossy never had to endure a team that could roll 3 great defensive LWer’s all series, right on into the duo of Stevens and Laperriere. I will absolutely argue strongly that facing those prospects doesn’t = a strong series for Bossy. Pittsburgh is very well positioned to make his life or any RW’s miserable.
And unlike real life, Bossy doesn’t have anyone to stand up for him when he surely gets put out on his keister floating around the offensive zone in this series.
Martinec was a dominant offensive hockey force in Europe through the 70’s. Must have been considering the Soviets went out of their way to intentionally injure him during international play. He drove a line often, was an absolute wizard with the puck on his stick, adept of passing or scoring. Clearly shown to be a plus defensive player thanks to added research in recent years.
How is
Bucyk overrated again here? Or in a spot where he is being asked to do more than he did in real life? The fudge simply doesn't work as it usually does in years past. He's the 3rd wheel on the top unit and Orr is present and his skillsets fit the line/team perfectly.
Jacques Lemaire and Yvan Cournoyer are both underrated by VsX (BB has fleshed this out nicely, as did C1958 years ago) standards.
But even if you don’t think that to be true, they absolutely had their best years skating together as the primary offensive forces of the line (1971 through 73 specifically). This was when Cournoyer was an AS winger in consecutive years, winning a Smythe in 73, etc.
So yeah, before Lafleur arrived and really took off in 1974, there were a few years where Lemaire and Cournoyer WERE counted on to be primary offensive forces (along with Mahovlich). Lemaire literally led the Habs in scoring in 1973 (95 points) with Cournoyer to his right.
There is very legit chemistry, and they’re playing a supporting offensive role with a line above and below them that can score at a nice rate relative to the competition here. It’s a below average 2nd scoring line, but the 3rd and 4th lines of Pittsburgh supplement the 2nd unit well and again, there is a wealth of offense coming from the back end and those skaters can impact every line of Pittsburgh. Certainly more than Ottawa's counterparts.
Hawerchuk was Winnipeg. He was the guy forever and his offensive totals are hard to ignore, especially considering the lack of talent around him (and against him in that division). He is absolutely used to driving a line and not working with much so I think he’d be perfectly fine with an elite skating grinder who always saved his biggest goals for the playoffs (
Anderson) and most importantly scored A LOT at ES. They both bring quality ES scoring to the table here.
Nowhere am I expecting a depth player (Bucyk, Anderson, Cook) to carry a line. None of them are on a line where they are needed to produce above the relative expectation. Bucyk, for all intents and purposes is the 3rd best offensive player on his line. And he’s got Orr. I like his chances.
Cook certainly doesn’t have Boucher or Bill here, but again he’s an elite skater, who can forecheck, strongly back check and chip in offensively. He’s not going to get left in the dust by the 2 Habs and his skillset fills the line out nicely. The empty boxes left by the 2 Habs are checked by Cook.
Crawford is what he is. A very physical, elite skating hell raiser who is going to do wonders on the fore-back check of that 3rd unit. A little less offense than I’d ideally like in his spot but then again Hawerchuk and Anderson represent well above average scoring at ES for a 3rd line. I’m not asking Crawford to overextend at all.
Goyette will play as he did in NY. Good skater, solid defensively, good on the fore check and quite competent offensively. Metz brings very strong defensively ability and Guerin can skate, hit like a brick shit house, and pot some goals. This line isn’t a pure defensive or offensive unit but all fill a role nicely for the group. As a whole, the line should absolutely work. The boxes are checked across the board.
Just as they are on each line.
Where is the F group on Pitt that will routinely forget to check back/cover up?
Doesn’t exist. A big point of going 4 of 6 D early was knowing I didn’t have to draft many pure checking F’s or entire lines to counter a top scoring group. They just need to be solid and responsible across the board. And I think I pretty clearly pulled that off.
Pittsburgh (me) long conned you and I think most everyone for that matter into thinking I was building a team very much slanted to the defensive. Doing so would rob Orr of his most powerful attributes specifically and doing such is, well, dumb. The forwards are collectively, a solid group defensively. Are they as good as Ottawa's top to bottom, defensively? No. But they don't have to be. They can score with Ottawa, line to line, and the blue line + goalie heavily favors Pittsburgh.
2. Bill Durnan is not a better goalie.
He didn't face better competition for awards/recognition not even remotely so.
Are we really going to compare Plante, Hall, Sawchuk to Brimsek, Broda, and enter whoever else you like further down the ladder and conclude that one didn't have a far bigger obstacle in obtaining recognition?
Yet despite that, Bower DID manage a 1st team AS over all of them.
Being the best goalie in the world (and Hart runner up btw) in 1961 is a better apex than anything Durnan did on a stacked Habitant roster, one which took advantage of a very depleted league early in his career.
Bower beat the Plante’s and Hall’s like rented mules, all of them head to head in the postseason. Bower has one of the greatest SV% in league history, in the postseason.
Not only did Bower post better numbers than most of his counterparts, he did it facing MORE shots, often, which was always the assumed legit argument against him.
“He was just a product of a great team in front of him.” Rubbish. The shots against, especially in the postseason don't tell that tale.
Some of the more esteemed statistical guru’s showed that in the Top 200 project and I outlined the playoff series where Bower faced more volume and still dominated better HOF’ers head to head.
Durnan had a few great playoff runs (one of them came during the height of the war depleted 1944 season) and he also had a few duds. He stepped into the NHL during the most depleted time in the history of the sport and was in the league for 7 years total. Not exactly a long period of time.
The only area you can get Durnan ahead is regular season longevity and that's only a gap if you give zero credence to Bower's dominance in the AHL, where he was a 3 time MVP and HOF, the only player in the history of hockey to have a plaque in both leagues btw.
And I believe I highlighted the fact he wasn't the only legitimate NHL regular in the AHL at this time. You had a 24 year old Pierre Pilote in the AHL during his first of 3 straight MVP campaigns for example. There is a thread in the HoH section outlining the year by year breakdown.
Regardless, on home ice, with the top 4 he has in front of him, in the playoffs, Bower has to be a slight edge here. Best case for Ottawa is a wash IMO.
3. By all means, give me a better idea of VsX for the 2 Russian wingers.
Kapustin was a checking man first no? What were his domestic scoring finishes and who did he skate with at ES? Those international stats, how do they compare to the stars of the Soviet team? Give him a 60? 70? Is he Vlad Martinec in the 80’s? I don't get the impression he was close to that level. I'm certainly open to be convinced otherwise. My knowledge of him is pretty limited at the current moment.
Larionov is absolutely rated where he should be. Please, if anyone thinks a 70 is underrating him I’m all eyes. He’s nowhere near that at the NHL level and while I’m guessing his Soviet numbers would put him more towards the 80’s range, it’s still an issue of line mates and usage and you can’t ignore the NHL offensive totals to begin with. What is his NHL 7 year score? 50, 55?
He was nothing remotely special offensively in the NHL and was flanked by Krutov and Makarov (99% sure) for years if you want to strictly focus on prime.
If you want to start “fudging” numbers you’ll lose that battle given Bucyk has his man in Orr riding with him to battle.
Larionov is playing out of his primary position at RW, no?
Even IF you think he’s a 70 (or better) that would take into account him playing with elite scoring wingers.
Fedorov is not Makarov and Kapustin ain’t Krutov.
Also, the problem with your beatable 2 on 1 theory for this Soviet line is that you have to be able to get the puck off Orr and Seibert first and foremost. You're system is definitely built to take advantage of teams that don't have the transition game to beat it. Pittsburgh has no issues there. Or as close to no issue as possible in the ATD.
You aren’t going to win the races to the puck in Pittsburgh’s zone on the dump. You certainly aren’t going to skate by or around them. Won’t go through them.
So if you can't routinely skate the puck in, and you're not going to routinely win the race to it on the dump, you have to force them into a turnover, which is how likely exactly?
Orr, the greatest skater and greatest offensive threat/mind to ever grace the ice from the blue line and one of the most dominant offensive blueliners of his time, in Seibert, again an absolutely elite skater and puck handler in his day. This is well documented in his bio's if folks want to browse.
Do you really want to play chase the puck against the blue line of Pittsburgh? Especially with the speed and support their going to get from the F's under Green?
And their partners are Stevens and Laperriere, hardly incompetent with the puck or slow footed. These guys collectively are insanely good, insanely battle tested and quite frankly aren’t facing that strong a F group, offensively speaking. That’s not me lying. That’s the numbers speaking point blank.
You have, at the very least, in the conversation for best skating team in the ATD in Pittsburgh. We have elite fore checkers like Bucyk, Crawford, Anderson, with varying degrees of pluses being Cook, Guerin, Lemaire, Goyette. It's a never ending stream of pressure w/ the most important aspect in that pressure being skating and physicality.
Do you really think your team is going to consistently beat those forecheckers out of the zone, with skaters like Orr and Seibert and Stevens able to step up into the neutral zone on people expecting to take a breakout, if they aren’t harassed into a turnover first? Knowing the Pittsburgh F’s have the speed and defensive conscious to cover up in this scenario?
The 2nd and 3r lines of Pittsburgh are going to be particularly difficult to handle because they not only can score, they are 6 incredible skaters, supported by Orr/Seibert, who are more of the same. You have the fore-checking ability, the goal scoring, play making, the 2 way play. These groups are going to inherently push Ottawa back on their heels. and as I stated last night, force Kelly into playing a more reactive game.
I didn’t just throw some VsX numbers at a wall and hope it stuck. Been playing too long to get that lazy. I built a roster around Orr, focused on skating, puck possession and an ability to generate offensive pressure with all 4 lines while being at the very least solid defensively at F, so that I can accurately say Pittsburgh will cover up when the Orr and Seibert’s go in deep.
Go line by line for Pittsburgh. There isn’t a bad fit anywhere IMO. Not by traditional standards. And nowhere are those “overrated Vsx” players in a position where Pittsburgh needs to rely on their overrated scores to be successful.
I think it absurd to say the offensive lines of Pittsburgh aren't built to sustain offensive pressure.
The top line has every box checked.
Elite puck winning w/Bucyk who was adept at scoring or setting up goals. Goal scoring dominant C. Offensive wizard in Martinec who is essentially a more lethal Hossa (their respective ranking back up my comparison) capable of driving a line but he doesn't have to every time when Orr is around, which will be often. If you don't think that line is built to sustain pressure or generate chances through skill or scrap, I don't know what to tell you.
The 2nd line is probably the one line that is built more on transition but even that is a stretch to claim in absolute terms. Even still, this is a line that will generate legit scoring chances and at least a few scores simply based on their speed/skill. It would be a treat to watch Orr skating in full flight supported by the 2 Habs players, w/Cook playing the primary defensive conscious when the others go in deep. When he goes in on the forecheck, you know Lemaire will cover up. So on and so forth.
Cook was clearly shown to be a puck winning winger. Doesn't read as good as Bill but the updated research certainly shows him to be a scrapper be it fighting or battling in the corners. He had elite wheels, was plenty physical and possessed a ton of intangibles. He clearly drove the Bread Line at times and was absolutely integral to its success. Again, it's all right in the updated bio, from city papers outside NY to boot.
Lemaire was strong as an ox, was a good checker, in both directions. Both Lemaire and Cournoyer thrived and lasted the duration of Bowman's tenure in Montreal no? If Scotty approves, you know they can play the 2 way game. Obviously you'd like a better score somewhere in a VsX realm, but the line itself is well balanced, it has legit and strong chemistry with that chemistry being 2 very, very good postseason players.
The 3rd line doesn't have cohesion or purpose? It's obviously a line built to supplement the lower offensive output on the 2nd group without being weak defensively.
Crawford and Anderson present an incredible duo at getting in on the forecheck. Like all time great at doing it. That's based on sheer skating speed/ability coupled with elite physicality. Anderson, again as noted earlier, scored A LOT at ES.
Hawershuk, as noted above, drove an entire team forever. He is absolutely the type of player who can drive a depth scoring line and was used to playing with subpar linemates so I don't think he'll have trouble working with 2 guys that can skate and generate pressure on the forecheck w/Anderson more than capable of finishing as a goal scorer. Certainly from a 3rd liner standpoint.
Crawford isn't a good or even average scorer but he's certainly not a black hole, and again, checks off many of the glue guy boxes and isn't being asked to contribute more than normal.
This is a line that will put so much strain on Ottawa w/ their skating and relentless physical play on the flanks along with a premium offensive force at C, again as a 3rd line player. You have skill and finishing ability and heavy play on both wings. Is it hard to see this line struggling to get a cycle going or pushing teams back/blowing by them w/ their speed?
4th line is again, built to keep up the pressure. Metz presents a great defensive player, and underrated offensive contributions especially as a playoff performer.
Goyette was good in both directions. Even in NY his +/- numbers look better at a passing glance than the other scoring line players. He was a good check as a younger player in Montreal and he certainly doesn't seemed to have bled goals like other Rangers. He's a nice playmaker for a 4th liner, especially looking at ES figures.
Guerin was actually a good skater for a big dude. He was very physical and peaked as a postseason AS. Was a good goal scorer at his peak as well. So again, you have all the elements you want from a depth unit. This line could hurt you offensively in a limited role, and they aren't a liability defensively.
Any of those lines can skate or muck their way into offensive position and again, that isn't even factoring in Orr/Seibert.
If people see it differently, no biggie.