ATD #9 Bob Cole Quarterfinal: #3 Kingston RMC Paladins vs. #6 Toronto Maple Leafs

VanIslander

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VanI, do you have some articles or some statistics to backup your statement?
This post will show the Paladins' fourth line of Ven Alexandrov - Alex Almetov - Konstantin Loktev simply were dominant in their era. The first great troika of Soviet hockey was Bobrov's line in the 50s. The second great line was in the early 60's:

Playing on the second great troika with Almetev and Loktev, Venjamin Alexandrov was considered the greatest Soviet player of his time. He drew some incredible comparisons. He was dubbed "Bobrov 2" in Russia, after the first great Soviet star, Vsevolod Bobrov. The great Russian coach Anatoli Tarasov had another comparison though - Maurice "Rocket" Richard.

Tarasov once had a conversation with the Rocket, where Richard said his secret to success was to not worry about the two or three burly defensemen that are about to crush him as he shoots on goal. He concentrates only on finding the open spot in the net, and takes whatever punishment the other team can dish out. After all, as long as Richard scored, he would be handing out the ultimate punishment. Tarasov instantly thought of his own Alexandrov when Richard had said this.

"I think that our Alexandrov, by his style of game, by his ability to keep a level head even in the most explosive situations, looks something like Maurice Richard, the great master of attack." said Tarasov in his book Road to Olympus.

Alexandrov was the left wing on his troika. He was destined for hockey stardom as he was groomed from an early age. He was brought up and trained as a youngster through the Central Army hockey school. When he was in his prime he was an electrifying star that had crowds cheering for him not only in Russia, but in Czechoslovakia, Sweden and Finland. Even in Canada and the US, he was the closest thing to a household Soviet name in the 1960s.

Alexandrov was not an individualist, at least not in the manner that Bobrov was. Though he certainly had the skill, he was not afraid to do his share of the dirty work as well, and used his linemates better than Bobrov did.
http://www.1972summitseries.com/otheralexandrov.html

:teach2: Alexandrov ('Bobrov2') was one of only four Soviets to ever score 50 goals a season in Soviet league play (Bobrov, Yakushev and Petrov are the others).

Alexandrov, Venjaminovic 'Venjamin' (1937- )
Born in the USSR. Left-wing. About 400 league games - 345 goals. Top scorer in 1963 (53 goals). Strong, technical player with a very good touch around the net. Mostly played on a line with Alexander Almetov and Konstantin Loktev and formed one of the best lines in USSR hockey history.
International Career : Played for the USSR 159 times (112 goals) between 1957 and 1968.
Medals : Won World Championship gold in 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967 & 1968.
Won the USSR League Champion 10 times (1956, 1958-81, 1963-66 & 1968)
http://www.azhockey.com/Al.htm

Alexandrov is also 8th all time in world championship scoring.
http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.php/hockey/comments/iihf_hockey_hall_of_fame_inducts_12/

eligible for HHOF induction beyond one year and have registered at least 100 points in Senior World Championship play.
Name Nation Goals Assists Points World Champ Titles Olympic Titles
Boris Mikhailov USSR 98 71 169 8 2
Alexander Maltsev USSR 77 89 156 9 2
Vladimir Petrov USSR 74 80 154 9 2
Sven Johansson Sweden 84 43 127 3 0
Sergei Makarov USSR 50 68 118 8 2
Vladimir Martinec CSSR 52 58 110 3 0
Ven. Alexandrov USSR 63 41 104 4 2
Jiri Holik CSSR 55 41 104 3 0
Anatoli Firsov USSR 59 42 101 6 3
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/html/ind08prolog.htm

V. Alexandrov. The splendid forward was a key to the Soviet Union's fast rise to the top of the ice hockey world in the 1950's and early ''60s. Alexandrov won 11 national titles in the Soviet league with CSKA Moscow from 1955 – 1969, playing in 400 games and scoring 351 goals. As a member of the national team, he earned six IIHF World Championship titles along with three silver and two bronze medals. He totalled 104 points in his 11 IIHF Championships, putting him 8th on the all-time points list.
http://forums.internationalhockey.net/showthread.php?p=83055

:amazed: Between 1965-1967 ALL three (Alexandrov, Almetov, Loktev) were each TWICE named to the world championship first all-star team. They simply were the best, together.
http://www.hockeycanada.ca/5/0/4/9/index1.shtml

Almetov led the Soviet league in goals in 1964 centering the troika
http://www.azhockey.com/Al.htm#Alexander Almetov

:nod: Here is a :youtube: video of Alexandrov in action in an early 60's 11-2 Soviet win over a Canadian team (Maroons) in which the Canadian coach was asked late in the video which Soviet players impressed him most and he mentioned Alexandrov first (notice his skating, stickhandling and shooting in the 5-min. video):
http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=Q40pJSQbsyU

Veniamin Alexandrov-Alexander Almetov-Konstantin Loktev
Team USSR and CSKA, 1960s

In terms of line chemistry and look-and-feel, this was probably the strongest line in the Soviet hockey.
http://keskustelu.jatkoaika.com/printthread.php?t=12725

:teach: And from page 187 of The Complete Idiot's Guide to Hockey::D

Though Anatoli Firsov was probably the best player of the 1960's, the best unit was the A-line of Veniamin Alexandrov-Alexander Almetov-Konstantin Loktev - the Academicians.
Alexandrov, blond hair flying in the wind, scored 351 goals in 400 league games... Almetov scored 212 times in 220 games and Loktev potted 213 goals in 340 games... All were members of Tarasov's Central Army club (he thought they perfectly represented the Soviet hockey mentality of skate, pass, think) which was important because they played together for years - they knew each others moves and could read each others thoughts in their sleep.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=ByW...g=5VG47ljlzNaixuj_qfj1_cltq7M&hl=en#PPA187,M1
 

VanIslander

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Venjamin Alexandrov should have been drafted somewhere in rounds 8-14. His linemates were drafted because of their great chemistry and success together, both Almetov and Loktev are 'good' all time but not as good as Alexandrov nor as good as at least three undrafted Soviets sure to go in the MLD. Line chemistry was a deciding factor.

The Kingston fourth line, with their old coach Chernyshev assisting, and head coach Tikhonov's 10-year blueline pairing of Pervukhin - Bilyaletdinov completing the 5-man unit (like the Red Wings did mid 90's, letting five Russians play together) for the powerplay and for 8-10 minutes of even-strength play.

The Paladins play a puck possession game and if the Maple Leafs want to skate with them skill for skill, then from Mario to Venjamin, the Paladins are ready.
 

VanIslander

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2 way players are bolded

John Leclair - Steve Yzerman (A) - Ace Bailey
George Hay - Dick Irvin, Sr. (A) - Tony Leswick


The entire second and third line were two-way talented. Leclair early in his career when he was scoring clutch playoff winners in the Habs successful Stanley Cup run was primarily a defensive-minded forward. Bailey was renowned for sacrificing offense and taking on second line defensive responsibilities with praise and credit in his later-career Stanley cup triumph.

Many sources cite Leswick as a shutdown artist against Howe and Richard. (Links are plentiful.)

HHOFers Hay and Irvin Sr. played amateur together for years in two cities, before and after the war, and then won the inaugural WCHL title together as the team's top linemates.

Jack Adams said there was never a better left winger than Hay at his best.

"I've seen a lot of good ones, but none who had more stuff than George. He was in a class with Aurial Joliat, Jack Walker, Bun Cook or Harvey Jackson. He could do everything, that fellow.
http://redwingslegends.blogspot.com/2007/04/george-hay.html
 

shawnmullin

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Alexandrov absolutely sounds like a find. However, I'm not sure about the strength of his line-mates. As many have said, chemistry counts in the regular season. At this point you would think great players would have adjusted to each other and built the necessary chemistry. He sounds like someone who could perhaps be a candidate for a second line winger spot later in the draft. The other two I'm not certain.

I think Kingston absolutely has the skill edge in this series. There's no counter for Mario and Yzerman up the middle. I think the PP will be absoutely deadly. I do think the Leafs have a slightly grittier and tougher team. In that way I find Vaive and Bondra massively out of place on this squad. Otherwise they have a lot of players I'd go to war with, but those guys stick out big time.

LL I think has the top goaltender and top defenceman in the series, but Van has a better top 4 on the blue line. Clearly there's an advantage up the middle for Kingston. I also wonder if LeClair might be better with Mario than with Yzerman.

From what I can see, Kingston is definately better off matching up power vs. power in hopes of outgunning the top Leaf lines with their top two lines... and as a result it'd be up to the third and fourth lines to make up a difference for LL that I don't think they could. At home, the Leafs might stand a better chance of getting the match-ups they want and playing their game.

I know who I'm voting for but I'll leave that to myself. I do think these are both interesting entries with a lot to consider.
 

Frightened Inmate #2

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Toronto PLAYOFF numbers

Left Wing
Gary Roberts

GP - 125 / G - 32 / A - 60 / P - 92
Patrik Elias
GP - 126 / G - 39 / A - 71/ P - 110
Stu Barnes
GP - 116 / G - 30 / A - 32/ P - 62
Bob Davidson
GP - 82 / G - 5 / A - 17 / P - 22

Center

Mats Sundin
GP - 83 / G - 35 / A - 39 / P - 74
Ted Kennedy
GP - 78 / G - 29 / A - 31 / P - 60
Murray Oliver
GP - 35 / G - 9 / A - 25 / P - 34
Peter Zezel
GP - 131 / G - 25 / A - 39 / P - 64
Evgeni Malkin
GP - 19 / G - 9 / A - 14 / P - 23

Right Wing

Peter Bondra

GP - 80 / G - 30 / A - 26 / P - 56
Rick Vaive
GP - 54 / G - 27 / A - 16 / P - 43
George Armstrong
GP - 110 / G - 24 / A - 36 / P - 60
Bob Nevin
GP - 84 / G - 16 / A - 18 / P - 34


Your team has scored a total of 310 playoff goals.... not really mindblowing numbers by any stretch and that is ignoring the fact that you have 7 forwards who haven't touched the cup.
 

shawnmullin

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Why are either of you discussing total goals? PPG is a far better indicator. Even that doesn't do it entirely because of the different eras.
 

Leaf Lander

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world championships ment nothing in the 60's and there was one hocey power and it was canada

sweden and russi a just improved to the firs generation of producing hockey stars canada sent b teams to those events and fsaired well vs the competition

like i said your russians are minor leaguers
 

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#7 Gary Roberts---#13 Mats Sundin---#12 Peter Bondra
#25 Patrik Elias----#9 Teeder Kennedy-----#22 Rick Vaive
#14 Stu Barnes --- #11-Murray Oliver-- #10 George Armstrong
#18 Bob Davidson---#25 PeterZezel------#11 Bob Nevin
#71 Evgeni Malkin

#4 Scott Stevens---#4 Rob Blake
#21 Bobby Baun---#33 Al Iafrate
#18 Garth Boesch --#15 Tomas Kaberle
#2 Ian Turnbull

#30 Martin Brodeur
#31 Curtis Joseph
#1 Frank

my bottom 7 players have 9 cups and soon it will be 10
4 played in the origional 6 the toughest league ever

toughness hitting goaltending and team defense edge to the leafs

once stevens lies mario up liek he use to when they played vs one another mario will be silenenced.

Big hitters on the leafs

Vaive, Barnes, Nevin Davidson

Bone crushers Malkin Roberts Blake Stevens Baun Iafrate and Boesh
 
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VanIslander

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world championships ment nothing in the 60's and there was one hocey power and it was canada
Alexandrov is every bit as accomplished and acclaimed as Vsevolod Bobrov, Tumba Johansson, and Anatoli Firsov. I guess you think they should have not been drafted by other g.m.s as well.

And 1972 must be some fairy tale magic Merlin year in your books in which the Soviets instantly acquired worldclass skill to equal the best of the NHL, where 1969 and 1968 simply was not up to snuff. And forget Tarasov as a coach, since he was pre-1972 only.

Geez.

your russians are minor leaguers
I admitted that Alexandrov's linemates, Almetov and Loktev, would be MLD material - if not for line chemistry - compared to at least a couple of other undrafted Soviets (even though Almetov and Loktev each were twice world champ all-stars, Almetov led the Soviet league in scoring in '64, they were long time mainstays on the top Soviet line of the sixties).

The coaches are world class, Alexandrov is world class, and the Soviet defensive pairing on the Paladins spent 1978-1987 on the very best, top Soviet teams together, beating the best of Canada and quality Czechs in international competition.

LL, I mean no disrespect. But you seem to!
 

God Bless Canada

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I'm going to try to say as little as possible. Let these three guys do the talking, since they're doing so well. (Although it's not as civil as a pit/pappy match-up).

LL made a good move by switching up his lines. I don't know why he thought Barnes-Oliver-Bondra was a good line to begin with. I think some guys thought he was still going with that line during the season, and it probably cost him votes.

Three big changes that LL made in this draft that will make his team better: 1) Greater emphasis on character; 2) No screw-ups on the third and fourth lines; 3) Finding players who will mesh well with his coach.

There are some scoring issues for Toronto, but those are diminished in the playoffs. Kennedy's one of the best clutch scorers ever. Elias and Roberts consistently have elevated their play in the playoffs. Armstrong was outstanding in the playoffs.

Kingston has the best 1-2 punch down the middle in the league. They lack an ace defenceman or winger, but they have depth at both positions. They have the potential for a lethal PP with Leclair-Mario-Yzerman-Wilson-Murphy.

What it comes down to is can Toronto stop Lemieux? Zezel's better defensively than FI2 makes him out to be; he was more than just a face-off ace. LL has some very, very good checkers on the wings, especially Armstrong and Nevin. But Lemieux, even at this level, can beat you by himself.

LL has an edge in goal, but this is Fuhr's time of year. Like Billy Smith, you pick Fuhr early for the right to have him at this time of year. That edge isn't as great. One thing that is great for Brodeur is the presence of Scotty Stevens. I'm a big fan of getting players who played in front of a goalie. We talk about chemistry with defencemen and forwards, but the goalie-skater relationship is really overlooked.

I know I'm in a distinct minority, but I really like Punch Imlach, if he's in the right situation. And this is the right situation. A high-character team with a great work ethic.
 

Leaf Lander

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I'm going to try to say as little as possible. Let these three guys do the talking, since they're doing so well. (Although it's not as civil as a pit/pappy match-up).

LL made a good move by switching up his lines. I don't know why he thought Barnes-Oliver-Bondra was a good line to begin with. I think some guys thought he was still going with that line during the season, and it probably cost him votes.

Three big changes that LL made in this draft that will make his team better: 1) Greater emphasis on character; 2) No screw-ups on the third and fourth lines; 3) Finding players who will mesh well with his coach.

There are some scoring issues for Toronto, but those are diminished in the playoffs. Kennedy's one of the best clutch scorers ever. Elias and Roberts consistently have elevated their play in the playoffs. Armstrong was outstanding in the playoffs.

Kingston has the best 1-2 punch down the middle in the league. They lack an ace defenceman or winger, but they have depth at both positions. They have the potential for a lethal PP with Leclair-Mario-Yzerman-Wilson-Murphy.

What it comes down to is can Toronto stop Lemieux? Zezel's better defensively than FI2 makes him out to be; he was more than just a face-off ace. LL has some very, very good checkers on the wings, especially Armstrong and Nevin. But Lemieux, even at this level, can beat you by himself.

LL has an edge in goal, but this is Fuhr's time of year. Like Billy Smith, you pick Fuhr early for the right to have him at this time of year. That edge isn't as great. One thing that is great for Brodeur is the presence of Scotty Stevens. I'm a big fan of getting players who played in front of a goalie. We talk about chemistry with defencemen and forwards, but the goalie-skater relationship is really overlooked.

I know I'm in a distinct minority, but I really like Punch Imlach, if he's in the right situation. And this is the right situation. A high-character team with a great work ethic.


Ty GBC Punch had armstrong baun nevin and oliver on his teams so he know knows how to use them and they know what to do. What they do is win cups!

The bad news for my oppposition is there is no where to hide you cna run but you will be caught and your gonan pay the price!

Blake is a strong physical power gaurd with exceptional mobility.Rob can stand a opponent up at the blueline, keeps the crease clear whenever an opponent is near,patrols the corners like a policeman and hits like a is a thundering beast when he takes the body to his opponents his hits are so powerful that opposing players are afraid that they may stick to the boards like fly gook

If any oen gets near the blueline plauers like Boeschcan stoop them he was famous for the "Maginot Line Knee Drop," as he would drop to his knees to blow an enemy shots.He was one of hockey's most underrated D-men in the history of the game


Thos who dear to enter our defensive zone will be crushed by big Al Iafrate a gigantic mobile defenceman could skate like the wind, Al was a rugged d-man who could throw thunderous body checks

Stevens was a Toug, mean, monster hits, leadership,skilled, air tight defensive play, excelant shot blocker, Inspirational leader and workhorse. Scott protected the fort with his usual uncompromising ferocity during the post season but also shows a offensive flair by opening up defenses with long probing strikes.One of the games fiercest competitors Stevens handels all the toughest assignments and would set the physical tone utilizing crushing open-ice hits

Hard hitters like stevens roberts bake iafrate boesh and baun will create motivation for his team mates while deflating the opposition into submission.

Once we destroy the opposition and take the puck in to our possesion we got swift skating mobile offensive dman liek kaberle blake and stevens to get the puck to our offensive horses like viave bondra elias sundin malkin and roberts.

All that plus the soon to be winningest goalie in the history of the NHL.
 
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Frightened Inmate #2

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Leaf Lander write your posts out as a Word document and then use spell check, it would make it so that people might be able to make out the scribble that is currently being posted.

1. Blake was a good defenseman, injury prone for sure, but there is no denying his talent. I don't think he is nearly as good as you make him out to be and you vastly overrate his play in his own end.

2. Stevens was a great defeseman who tends to get somewhat overrated because of his fantastic hits and they stick out in peoples minds. None the less he is still one of the top defensive defensemen in the draft.

3. Al Iafrate was talented but his was injury prone and was never able to have his brain catch up with his all world talent (all the tools but lacking the tool box if you will)

4. Boesch, I know nothing about and google searches bring up this thread so if you could add some links it would be great.... but dropping to ones knees is going to get him killed in the era of 100 mph slap shots coming in on him.

Also Oliver never won anything and went for almost a decade without playing in the playoffs...
 

papershoes

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4. Boesch, I know nothing about and google searches bring up this thread so if you could add some links it would be great.... but dropping to ones knees is going to get him killed in the era of 100 mph slap shots coming in on him.

on joe pelletier's website there is a story about garth boesch (the only player in the 40's to sport a mustache).

i wonder how effective boesch will be in the atd. he only played in 4 nhl seasons (though he won three stanley cups in that span). did he play enough to have an impact in this format?
additionally, the "maginot knee drop" was an effective tactic because both boesch and his partner barilko would simultaneously drop to their knees. kaberle doesn't strike me as the type of player to do so.
personally, i would be much more inclined to use turnbull and let boesch sit. turnbull's play in his own end was brutal however, you gain some offence and longevity.
 

Leaf Lander

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Leaf Lander write your posts out as a Word document and then use spell check, it would make it so that people might be able to make out the scribble that is currently being posted.

1. Blake was a good defenseman, injury prone for sure, but there is no denying his talent. I don't think he is nearly as good as you make him out to be and you vastly overrate his play in his own end.

2. Stevens was a great defeseman who tends to get somewhat overrated because of his fantastic hits and they stick out in peoples minds. None the less he is still one of the top defensive defensemen in the draft.

3. Al Iafrate was talented but his was injury prone and was never able to have his brain catch up with his all world talent (all the tools but lacking the tool box if you will)

4. Boesch, I know nothing about and google searches bring up this thread so if you could add some links it would be great.... but dropping to ones knees is going to get him killed in the era of 100 mph slap shots coming in on him.

Also Oliver never won anything and went for almost a decade without playing in the playoffs...

Stevens is a legend who domianted the opposition and we all know that.

This Further proof of how unthruthful your arguments are.

Who is more injury prone then mario lemieux or stevie yzerman haha duh!

Oliver just missed winning with the leafs and the bruins.Not every great player gets a cup

Boesch played 4 yrs was key cog for the late 40's leaf championship teams and he won 3 cups!

http://mapleleafslegends.blogspot.com/

now how many cups has your team won

You have kept the info about your team to yourselves and for good reason im sure;)

I want to know how many stanley cups has players on your team won?

I do not want to know how many russian version of the allan cup havebeen won!!
 
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Leaf Lander

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on joe pelletier's website there is a story about garth boesch (the only player in the 40's to sport a mustache).

I wonder how effective boesch will be in the atd. he only played in 4 nhl seasons (though he won three stanley cups in that span). did he play enough to have an impact in this format?
additionally, the "maginot knee drop" was an effective tactic because both boesch and his partner barilko would simultaneously drop to their knees. kaberle doesn't strike me as the type of player to do so.
personally, i would be much more inclined to use turnbull and let boesch sit. turnbull's play in his own end was brutal however, you gain some offence and longevity.

This is a all time draft so we take these players from yester yr and we place them on the ice in our online areana so it would be unfair to place players from 1900 and make them face todays players who are well conditioned better coached and markably better atheltes but no one said I can't supply modern equipment. Players dive in front of pucks these days with there armoured body gear on. I am sure boesh will take any modern gear needed to do his job.

If you open that arguments then what becomes of Goldman and many other great shot blockers.
 
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Frightened Inmate #2

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Stevens is a legend who domianted the opposition and we all know that.

A legend yes, but even legends can get overrated due to certain aspects of their game.... in the case of Steven's people remember his massive hits and then extrapolate other parts of his game based upon that.... point in case I really don't remember his exceptional ability to send the puck up ice and be a master at the breakout as you tend to insist he was.

Who is more injury prone then mario lemieux or stevie yzerman haha duh!

Yet they both are all time greats unlike Iafrate...

Oliver just missed winning with the leafs and the bruins.Not every great player gets a cup
No but don't call him a winner if he hasn't won jack all.

Boesch played 4 yrs was key cog for the late 40's leaf championship teams and he won 3 cups!

http://mapleleafslegends.blogspot.com/

Much like not all great players win cups, not every player who wins a cup is great, I call that the Chris Dingman rule

now how many cups has your team won

I would bet more cups per player than your team has won... hard to say when you have players that were unable to play in the league due to political reasons (Soviet Union)

You have kept the info aboutyour teamto yourselves and for good reason im sure;)

I wnat to know how many stanley cups not the russian version of the allan cup

What? Is this even English.
 

Frightened Inmate #2

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If you want to talk about Kingston, should we talk about the back to back Conn Smythe Trophies from Lemieux? Or would you rather discuss the Selke and Smythe from Yzerman? If that bores you I am sure that Grant Fuhr's cups might interest you?

I will pick apart your team, it is much easier and much more interesting.
 

Leaf Lander

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:biglaugh: your team has just 3 players that are decorated :)

Wow thats a very weak team behind the 2 stars and a weaker argument, all over blown and huffed up to cover a team thats has many deep holes filled by ahl level talent.

Anyone who is like me votes for the best team and the best lineup
 
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