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ATD 2022 DRAFT THREAD I

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TheDevilMadeMe said:
Abel spent a larger percentage of his career at LW than Maltsev did at RW.

That said, when you're switching a guy between two forward positions and he proved he could do both to similar levels,* I don't see why you'd necessarily dock him.

*I guess Maltsev is more of a goal scorer on the wing and playmaker at C, though I'm not sure that carries into the ATD.

I mean, certain skills definitely need to be used at C, but Maltsev wasn't exactly known for dominating faceoffs or defending the center of the ice.
Click to expand...

Where did Abel's best scoring finishes come at? VsX puts him into the mid 80's so I think taking in account where his premium scoring came from, does impact how certain people value his offensive upside.

1941-42 NHL 49 (5th)
1948-49 NHL 54 (3rd)
1949-50 NHL 69 (2nd)
1950-51 NHL 61 (4th)
1951-52 NHL 53 (7th)
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
I believe, 2-5 came at C no? I agree 100% that his ability to play LW is not in question. Though I wager his offensive output drops some from the standard VsX number that gets thrown out. Of course on a line with Sakic/Cook, he doesn't need to be a high end offensive force. The fit is fantastic!

Just pointing out how I evaluate putting people in their secondary positions.

Maltsev, unless I'm mistaken, played and accumulated quite a bit of value at C, and comparing him to Martinec, strictly based on position, would give a clear edge to the guy who played strictly out on the wing. Besides the other attributes beyond offense.
 
Johnny Engine said:
I'm going to take a guy who has really proven that - hold on, I think I have a stomach bug or something, I just need to sit down. just a moment.

...

(loud retching noises)

...

OK, as I was saying before I was taken with a completely unrelated illness, I'm going to give another huge bump to a player who's been the ...uh hum... most well-rounded and top-2 left wing in the game for a 5 year stretch, while in competition with a near-generational talent for a peer and he - just hold on a second...

....

OK, I think that was the last of it. Anyway, that's a peak to rival any of the last few LWs, his 7-year VsX is up in the mid 80s, plus he's got a great defensive reputation and a smattering of Selke support in a time where wingers don't really get any, and he's playing next to another generational talent in the area of accumulating Selke support. Add that to a certain...agitating X-factor, and the pedigree of a consistent winner and a beacon of constant self-improvement, and I don't see why I shouldn't use this pick on...

(vomits everywhere, in front of everyone)

Sorry, that was embarrassing. Hey, at least I didn't lick anyone's face, right? That's a funny joke, isn't it?

Brad Marchand, get your Kentucky Thoroughblades jersey and get out of my face.
Click to expand...

He was our backup plan. Good pick
 
TheDevilMadeMe said:
I might be willing to trade down from 143.
Click to expand...
Honestly jumping up two spots is going to be hard to make work the way our relative picks are placed for me to be worth it. I'm just going to have to hope one of my guys drops to 145.

I feel like I've got the good foundation for a team but if I trade out of all of my middle round picks I'm going to be left with no roof at the end of the day.
 
Johnny Engine said:
I'm going to take a guy who has really proven that - hold on, I think I have a stomach bug or something, I just need to sit down. just a moment.

...

(loud retching noises)

...

OK, as I was saying before I was taken with a completely unrelated illness, I'm going to give another huge bump to a player who's been the ...uh hum... most well-rounded and top-2 left wing in the game for a 5 year stretch, while in competition with a near-generational talent for a peer and he - just hold on a second...

....

OK, I think that was the last of it. Anyway, that's a peak to rival any of the last few LWs, his 7-year VsX is up in the mid 80s, plus he's got a great defensive reputation and a smattering of Selke support in a time where wingers don't really get any, and he's playing next to another generational talent in the area of accumulating Selke support. Add that to a certain...agitating X-factor, and the pedigree of a consistent winner and a beacon of constant self-improvement, and I don't see why I shouldn't use this pick on...

(vomits everywhere, in front of everyone)

Sorry, that was embarrassing. Hey, at least I didn't lick anyone's face, right? That's a funny joke, isn't it?

Brad Marchand, get your Kentucky Thoroughblades jersey and get out of my face.
Click to expand...
Real talk - he's my favorite non-Hedman player to watch. For some reason I can't explain, I get Jagr-vibes when I watch him protect the puck, even though he's giving up like 5 inches and 50 pounds in that comparison.
 
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The Macho King said:
Real talk - he's my favorite non-Hedman player to watch. For some reason I can't explain, I get Jagr-vibes when I watch him protect the puck, even though he's giving up like 5 inches and 50 pounds in that comparison.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I know people hate on him given his style of play, but I was just talking with Johnny and he's become the best all around LW in hockey the past 5-6 years now. His record is easily top 200 all time. Elite scoring numbers the past 6 years. Elite PK numbers. Sure, he's a little shit, but he combines the pest activity with being an actual stud better than anyone in the league.
 
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ImporterExporter said:
Where did Abel's best scoring finishes come at? VsX puts him into the mid 80's so I think taking in account where his premium scoring came from, does impact how certain people value his offensive upside.

1941-42 NHL 49 (5th)
1948-49 NHL 54 (3rd)
1949-50 NHL 69 (2nd)
1950-51 NHL 61 (4th)
1951-52 NHL 53 (7th)
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
I believe, 2-5 came at C no? I agree 100% that his ability to play LW is not in question. Though I wager his offensive output drops some from the standard VsX number that gets thrown out. Of course on a line with Sakic/Cook, he doesn't need to be a high end offensive force. The fit is fantastic!

Just pointing out how I evaluate putting people in their secondary positions.

Maltsev, unless I'm mistaken, played and accumulated quite a bit of value at C, and comparing him to Martinec, strictly based on position, would give a clear edge to the guy who played strictly out on the wing. Besides the other attributes beyond offense.
Click to expand...

FWIW, Abel has 2 top 10s in assists as a LW, including what is probably his best season in assists (3rd in assists in 1941-42 without elite linemates), as well as a Smythe-calibre playoff run in 1943.

Re: Maltsev, I believe he played almost exclusively at C in the domestic league, but was RW a little more often than he was C on the international team.
 
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The Macho King said:
Honestly jumping up two spots is going to be hard to make work the way our relative picks are placed for me to be worth it. I'm just going to have to hope one of my guys drops to 145.

I feel like I've got the good foundation for a team but if I trade out of all of my middle round picks I'm going to be left with no roof at the end of the day.
Click to expand...

Let me know who's left on your list, we'll try to/not pick at 144
 
Re Abel: I should add that since he was more of a driver/mucker type than a traditional puck handling playmaker, I don't think he's all that dependent on playing C.

But then, my thoughts on this has always been that wing and center, while different, aren't THAT different, so if a player has good credentials at both, I mostly just look at his entire time at forward, unless there are specific skills (like Hooley Smith's hookcheck) that don't translate well to the secondary position.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe said:
Re Abel: I should add that since he was more of a driver/mucker type than a traditional puck handling playmaker, I don't think he's all that dependent on playing C.

But then, my thoughts on this has always been that wing and center, while different, aren't THAT different, so if a player has good credentials at both, I mostly just look at his entire time at forward, unless there are specific skills (like Hooley Smith's hook check) that don't translate well to the secondary position.
Click to expand...

I'm just sitting here eating lunch catching strays :laugh:
 
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ResilientBeast said:
I'm just sitting here eating lunch catching strays :laugh:
Click to expand...

Ha.

I mean, Hooley Smith is the most recently drafted C/W for whom I can think of a specific center-dependent skill. He's still going to be super tough and backcheck well at W

I could have said Messier at LW loses his ability to physical dominate his opposing C off the faceoff, which was like the main way he played defense.
 
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I think the line you build makes a difference too.
If you're giving any thought to which forward is going to go chasing guys down as F1 on the forecheck and which guys are in the next layer, you could create a situation where a winger might get a chance to hook check more often. If Hooley Smith plays with a feisty, speedy LW who'll pressure the breakout, he'll be patrolling the neutral zone in some formation, while Esposito...does whatever Esposito does when his team doesn't have the puck.
 
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Johnny Engine said:
I'm going to take a guy who has really proven that - hold on, I think I have a stomach bug or something, I just need to sit down. just a moment.

...

(loud retching noises)

...

OK, as I was saying before I was taken with a completely unrelated illness, I'm going to give another huge bump to a player who's been the ...uh hum... most well-rounded and top-2 left wing in the game for a 5 year stretch, while in competition with a near-generational talent for a peer and he - just hold on a second...

....

OK, I think that was the last of it. Anyway, that's a peak to rival any of the last few LWs, his 7-year VsX is up in the mid 80s, plus he's got a great defensive reputation and a smattering of Selke support in a time where wingers don't really get any, and he's playing next to another generational talent in the area of accumulating Selke support. Add that to a certain...agitating X-factor, and the pedigree of a consistent winner and a beacon of constant self-improvement, and I don't see why I shouldn't use this pick on...

(vomits everywhere, in front of everyone)

Sorry, that was embarrassing. Hey, at least I didn't lick anyone's face, right? That's a funny joke, isn't it?

Brad Marchand, get your Kentucky Thoroughblades jersey and get out of my face.
Click to expand...

Marchand is a really good pick here. I thought he would rise a bit more this year. I see him as a slightly lesser version of Toe Blake.
 
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ImporterExporter said:
Maltsev isn't a pure RW, some of his value is tied to C, no? Not much different than Sid Abel and swinging him to LW with 2/3 of his career coming at C.
Click to expand...
He played right wing almost exclusively for the Soviet national team, and his international record is sterling...arguably the best of all the Soviet forwards of his generation. So I dunno. Playing Maltsev at center seems unwise given his lack of defensive reputation.

Also don't like the fact that Maltsev was noted to not exactly enjoy playing in rougher conditions.
Click to expand...
Small sample size theater. He didn't excel against team Canada in the Canada Cups, but that's what...12 games in his career? The rest of his international record is so good, I don't think it's a concern.

One of the reasons I preferred Maltsev to Martinec, at least for our team, is because he had a lot of success on the Soviet national team playing opposite a scoring LW who liked to handle the puck a lot. That suggests he'd be a better fit opposite Bobby Hull, while Martinec was always the driver of his lines, as far as I know...less of a track record of sharing the puck with another star forward. I agree we're splitting hairs in terms of their overall value, though. They're in the same tier.
 
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Johnny Engine said:
I think the line you build makes a difference too.
If you're giving any thought to which forward is going to go chasing guys down as F1 on the forecheck and which guys are in the next layer, you could create a situation where a winger might get a chance to hook check more often. If Hooley Smith plays with a feisty, speedy LW who'll pressure the breakout, he'll be patrolling the neutral zone in some formation, while Esposito...does whatever Esposito does when his team doesn't have the puck.
Click to expand...

This sort of logic is why we wanted another player who can be physical in the corners as well as back check. We didn't want Hooley to have to be superhuman and do the majority of both jobs on the line.
 
ImporterExporter said:
The Pittsburgh Confluence will get their 2nd pairing started with a player who posted some pretty amazing usage and playoff numbers throughout the 1960's and was, IMO, the backbone of the Montreal D on their 60's dynasty.

With Potvin-Savard up top, he can be sheltered a bit more from the absolute toughest match ups while being able to log heavy minutes in all situations (see below for usage breakdown). It's not often you can get a Dman at this stage capable of playing both special teams units well above average and log easy #3 minutes.

JC Tremblay, D

jct.jpg




His usage numbers were off the charts impressive:

Special teams roles - 1960-2017

Regular season PK usage (2nd all time post 1960 for players w/>500 games played)

-6% above league average while logging 2/3 of his team's penalty kill over the course of his career:

PlayerGPSH%TmSH+$SHP/82
Jacques Laperriere69176%0.902
J.C. Tremblay79666%0.941
Marcel Pronovost63666%0.961
xxxxxxxx60465%0.881
Bobby Orr65762%0.786
xxxxxxx83660%1.081
xxxxxxx107159%0.951
Serge Savard104058%0.822
Ray Bourque161258%0.882
xxxxxx85457%0.771
Chris Chelios165157%0.852
xxxxx61557%1.011
Tim Horton101057%0.922
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Regular season ES usage (tied for 5th all time post 1960, just marginally behind Orr, Horton, Pilote, Laperriere)

PlayerGP$ESP/82$ESGF/82$ESGA/82R-ONR-OFFEV%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
J.C. Tremblay79625101781.301.3045%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
-Again, you can see the impact he had while on the ice w/the even strength goals for vs against splits.


Here is a look at how much Tremblay was used during the playoffs:

Special teams roles - playoff data (1960-2017)

Playoff PP usage:

59.3%

Playoff PK usage:

57.7%

Playoff ES usage:

46.4%

Playoff even strength "R-ON/R-OFF" ratio

J.C. Tremblay108 1.45 0.99 0.45
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
-Those are incredibly good splits for an ATD defender. Only Bobby Orr and one other undrafted ATD regular sees greater than +45% in the green.


Here are some quotes from folks like @Sturminator @overpass @TheDevilMadeMe who did a wonderful job highlighting Tremblay's skills on the ice, specifically putting down the notion that he was some sort of liability defensively based on his softer reputation.

From the Top 200 project:

Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 14

Sturminator said: ↑



Red Fisher said:



Joe Pelletier said:



Fisher, Red. The Gazette. Montreal, Que. [Montreal, Que]17 Oct 2009: D.1.



JC Tremblay's playoff stats are really, really good.

Leading playoff scorers 1965-1969 (Montreal wins 4 Cups in 5 years):

Jean Beliveau 63 points, +11
xxxxxx 42 points, +13 (forward)
JC Tremblay 41 points, +35
Henri Richard 40 points, +7 (with very little PP time)
xxxxxxxx 40 points, +3 (forward)
xxxxxxxx 39 points +5 (forward)

Leading playoff scorers 1965-1969 among defensemen:

JC Tremblay 41 points in 59 games
Pierre Pilote 20 points in 39 games (for Chicago)
xxxxxxx 13 points in 60 games

-Nobody is remotely close to Tremblay in terms of lifting their offensive output in the postseason during this time frame.

TDMM:



@seventieslord highlighted how good his scoring numbers were with a playoff version of VsX: Tremblay joins Denis Potvin to give Three Rivers a pair of absolute money players (overall and offensively speaking) when it comes to postseason hockey.

NHL Playoff VsX, 1918-2016

|Name|VsX5P
1Denis Potvin|442
2Bobby Orr|423
3Paul Coffey|405
4Nicklas Lidstrom|404
5J.C. Tremblay|368
6Larry Robinson|365
7Al MacInnis|360
8xxxxxxxxx|339
9Chris Chelios|329
10Brad Park|328
11xxxxxxxx|323
12Chris Pronger|322
13xxxxxxxxxx|313
14Ray Bourque|308
15Doug Harvey|306
16Brian Leetch|303
17Pierre Pilote|301
18xxxxxx|297
19Scott Niedermayer|296
20Duncan Keith|290
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Click to expand...

We were considering him along with Stuart. You made our choice easier. Tremblay is solid value at this spot.
 
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Sturminator said:
He played right wing almost exclusively for the Soviet national team, and his international record is sterling...arguably the best of all the Soviet forwards of his generation. So I dunno. Playing Maltsev at center seems unwise given his lack of defensive reputation.


Small sample size theater. He didn't excel against team Canada in the Canada Cups, but that's what...12 games in his career? The rest of his international record is so good, I don't think it's a concern.

One of the reasons I preferred Maltsev to Martinec, at least for our team, is because he had a lot of success on the Soviet national team playing opposite a scoring LW who liked to handle the puck a lot. That suggests he'd be a better fit opposite Bobby Hull, while Martinec was always the driver of his lines, as far as I know...less of a track record of sharing the puck with another star forward. I agree we're splitting hairs in terms of their overall value, though. They're in the same tier.
Click to expand...

Maltsev's real issue is that he kind of sucked against Czechoslovakia, at least statistically. He was generally pretty good against Canada after 1972.

How much did Maltsev play opposite Kharlamov? (Is that who you are talking about with the LW who handled the puck?) I know they did occasionally.
 
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