Beliveau
It's clobberin time!🥊
overpass, although you weren't involved in the first trade, you still won it by taking Kelly 17th. You have a good team. Please take the C off Toews and give it to Kelly or Moore.
ATD 2021 Lineup Advice Thread
- Thread starter ResilientBeast
- Start date
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Sorry nobody answered this. Now it's many rounds later, so probably too late.
Ideally, Clarke doesn't play on PP1 in a draft this small, but it's not the end of the world if he does.
Dreakmur
Registered User
So... you want him to take the C off one of the best captains ever and put in on either a guy who was never a captain, or a guy who was a captain for to seasons before being stripped?
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
You have so much talent, but I have 2 issues:
1) That top 6 is just soft
2) the original 4th line has at least some grit from everyone and defense from Starsh, but in the offensive zone it's basically just 3 net presence guys playing together. It's just a 4th line, but still I think it could function better.
So after playing with multiple versions of your lineup, I thought maybe this could work?
Valeri Kharlamov - Doug Gilmour - Andy Bathgate (still pretty soft, but maybe you're just stuck that way).
Sweeney Schriner - Pavel Datsyuk - Dino Ciccarelli (still not the best line in the corners, but Dino gets the dirty goals the line otherwise wouldn't)
X - Vyacheslav Starshinov - Nikita Kucherov (the best part about drafting Starsh late is that you can actually use Kucherov next to him without wasting Kuch. X would need to be a Wayne Cashman style player though, not Andreychuk)
Craig Ramsay - Ryan Kesler - Jere Lehtinen
FWIW, I don't think Dino is that much better than Andreychuk, but I think he adds just a little more grit.
ChiTownPhilly
Not Too Soft
I already saw that tony took care of job #1 by making sure Clarke was on PK1. From there, it's only natural that he NOT be on PP1- a matter to which tony has already attended. So I see that Mr. D is on-the-wheel on this one.
I was wondering if he should be on a regular PP at all? [Maybe 2nd alternating as a spot-guy.] Preserve the even-strength minutes(?) That's where my mind's at.
Professor What
Registered User
Following @rmartin65's advice in the draft thread, I'm going to put my proposed power play up for consideration and see what kind of feedback I get on it.
First Unit:
Rick Nash - Gilbert Perreault - Maurice Richard
Bill Gadsby - Peter Bondra
Second Unit:
Ted Lindsay - Connor McDavid - Helmuts Balderis
Derian Hatcher - Sergei Zubov
After doing some digging myself after a comment that was made about my intention to use Nash on my PP, I'm pretty dissatisfied at the moment with what I have on the left side. I think that Nash and Lindsay are okay on that side, but I don't feel like I have a true solid #1 over there. I'm not really all that happy with Hatcher there either, even though I know that he did play on the PP, and I like the chemistry that I have there with Zubov. I guess I'm just not satisfied that it's enough. My other question is Balderis. He strikes me as the type of player that would make a good PP guy, but with limited exposure to him on video, since he didn't play as much internationally as many of the other Soviet greats, I'm not sure how much he actually played on it.
First Unit:
Rick Nash - Gilbert Perreault - Maurice Richard
Bill Gadsby - Peter Bondra
Second Unit:
Ted Lindsay - Connor McDavid - Helmuts Balderis
Derian Hatcher - Sergei Zubov
After doing some digging myself after a comment that was made about my intention to use Nash on my PP, I'm pretty dissatisfied at the moment with what I have on the left side. I think that Nash and Lindsay are okay on that side, but I don't feel like I have a true solid #1 over there. I'm not really all that happy with Hatcher there either, even though I know that he did play on the PP, and I like the chemistry that I have there with Zubov. I guess I'm just not satisfied that it's enough. My other question is Balderis. He strikes me as the type of player that would make a good PP guy, but with limited exposure to him on video, since he didn't play as much internationally as many of the other Soviet greats, I'm not sure how much he actually played on it.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
I like:
Ted Lindsay - Gilbert Perreault - Maurice Richard
Bill Gadsby - Sergei Zubov
Rick Nash (or guy to be drafted later) - Connor McDavid - Helmuts Balderis
Ron Francis - Valeri Vasiliev
Seems weird not to have Bondra on your PP, but his PP stats really aren't that special. Nash's aren't so great either, but I think he at least is a believable net guy.
Even if you don't do this, IMO Lindsay and Zubov are musts on PP1, and Hatcher is a must not on it at all.
tabness
be a playa 🇵🇸
- Apr 4, 2014
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Nash is an excellent player to take in these things because he happily plays any role and he has pretty much all the tools. He seemed a bit individualistic which hurt him offensively generally (not just on the powerplay) but I think he is fine playing on the powerplay as well. I really like him in a defensive role where he doesn't even need good offensive players on his line to counterattack.
You are being a bit hard on your team, and I think you should be playing Francis on your powerplay. Even in terms of "unwritten rules" in this thing, you can have a couple of centers on the powerplay. Wouldn't that make it much easier?
Another option is that there are some excellent powerplay defenseman left on the board that you can take, maybe play seven D?
You are being a bit hard on your team, and I think you should be playing Francis on your powerplay. Even in terms of "unwritten rules" in this thing, you can have a couple of centers on the powerplay. Wouldn't that make it much easier?
Another option is that there are some excellent powerplay defenseman left on the board that you can take, maybe play seven D?
Johnny Engine
Moderator
- Jul 29, 2009
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- I think you're unecessarily locked into putting a RW, a LW and a C onto each unit. I think your priorities should lie more in finding guys who shoot from a variety of locations/distances, a decent pass/shoot balance, and yes, at least one guy who should win a faceoff. I don't hate the balance that you do have here, however.
- Why is Nash ahead of Lindsay?
- There has to be a better option than Derian Hatcher for PP2. Now, Watson and Foote don't have any claim to the spot, and Vasiliev was known to have a muffin from the point, but you don't really need more than one defenseman on each unit, and you don't even really need a forward who "played the point". The spread formation with two guys lining up at either side of the blueline is just one way to set up a power play unit, and it's currently way out of favour. That's not to say an ATD team can't use that formation, but you shouldn't be locked into it.
- Noble and Duff are the two forwards left off the power play, and Noble has some experience at defense. Wouldn't he be a better choice than Hatcher? While I don't think your going to find a record of him doing exactly what Bondra did, among the guys on your team who 1) have good offensive instincts 2) should be used to surveying the play from up high 3) should be able to get backing up to defend a counterattack without getting Pominvilled, Noble's gotta have more of that than Hatcher, right?
- There are still forwards who can play the point left over, and even more forwards who can play the more modern "flank" position PM if you want to talk about candidates for such a role, or power play philosophy in general, which I love shooting the shit about.
Professor What
Registered User
I already have four left wings on the roster, so the bolded would require benching someone. How much damage am I going to do to my main roster if I were to do that, and, since I still don't really feel like I have a grasp on how subs work in this, how are the guys sitting on my bench going to affect things overall?
Johnny Engine
Moderator
- Jul 29, 2009
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Wait a second, Francis wasn't on the power play? Haha, I missed that entirely.
Ok, get that going, in TDMM's units or otherwise.
I'd personally rather see Gatsby and Zubov on separate units, with Bondra instead of Vasiliev, but not every voter will feel the same and it's a passable judgement call.
Ok, get that going, in TDMM's units or otherwise.
I'd personally rather see Gatsby and Zubov on separate units, with Bondra instead of Vasiliev, but not every voter will feel the same and it's a passable judgement call.
Johnny Engine
Moderator
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As I said above, I don't think you need a LW on each unit - if anything, keeping an eye to handedness vs where you expect guys to stand is more important.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Another option that gets Vasiliev off the PP entirely:
Ted Lindsay - Gilberty Perreault - Maurice Richard
Ron Francis - Sergei Zubov
Rick Nash (or guy to be drafted later) - Connor McDavid - Helmuts Balderis
Peter Bondra - Bill Gadsby
Not sure I like Francis better than Gadsby, but putting 2 forwards on the points together on PP2 would be too dangerous IMO
Edit: I see @Johnny Engine basically said the same.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Yes, as JE said: Just like real life teams more or less ignore positions while playing the PP, it's often done in the ATD. Just make sure the player is effective in whatever PP role he will be used at.
Professor What
Registered User
@Johnny Engine I think my problem locking myself into the forward positions is that this is the first time I've ever done anything resembling team building outside of video games, and if you're good enough at that, it doesn't matter who you put where, which means I never really thought about it much differently than a normal setup, other than using a fourth forward on the units. (I mean, when you bowl through an international tournament on hard difficulty playing as Belarus, it doesn't really matter, right?) Still, the Francis bit was a pretty big mistake, since I should have realized he'd be the perfect point QB. Nash on PP1 with Lindsay on PP2 wasn't really anything other than trying to get some balance. It wasn't intended to represent a reflection of my view on their play. If it were that, I'd take Lindsay nine days a week, obviously. Probably still not the best idea, though.
@TheDevilMadeMe I think I do like that second setup you suggested a lot. I guess if I'm going to be more fluid, I could also go with JE's suggestion of Noble on the point, which could allow Bondra to move up front, or a future RW or C selection could fill Nash's spot, though I'm not sure that's as likely with my current line of thinking for the fourth line.
@TheDevilMadeMe I think I do like that second setup you suggested a lot. I guess if I'm going to be more fluid, I could also go with JE's suggestion of Noble on the point, which could allow Bondra to move up front, or a future RW or C selection could fill Nash's spot, though I'm not sure that's as likely with my current line of thinking for the fourth line.
Johnny Engine
Moderator
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You may or may not have noticed that when I set up my blank roster page, I put this for a power play:
Those would mean net-front, left and right flank, bumper, and point. I do this not because I want to set up a cookie-cutter Ovechkin power play, but because I think those labels are very flexible and in keeping with the variety of things that people do on the power play. For example:
- the net front guy might prefer sag below the goal line and act more like a playmaker
- the bumper might crash the net, take the place of the tips/screen guy if the first guy is sagging down, or float in space like a rover, doing anything he might be good at.
- either flank might come down the half boards, or circle up high and act as the second point man, or even be a second defenseman. Ideally they'd be balanced in that way - obviously I'm not going to put a defenseman in both of these positions and one on the point, that'd be silly. Even better if you've got you best playmaker and best distance shooter here.
- If possible, I'd like the pass-first flank to be playing on his strong side and the shoot first flank on his off side, but variations can and do exist everywhere.
- Doesn't really matter if the guy I have labelled "P" is a shooter or a passer, but he definitely shouldn't be Peter Bondra.
I think just about any power play set up can be described with some combination of those, though it's probably simpler to just list 3 forwards and 2 pointman as they would line up for a for a faceoffs. I wouldn't judge an ATD powerplay that doesn't line up the exact set of roles I've described here, but I would give a side-eye to one that threw out 3 Ciccarelli types and two defensemen, whether or not those players played LW, C and RW or not.
Just some thoughts on how roles can change situationally.
NF1
LF1 - B1 - RF1
P1
LF1 - B1 - RF1
P1
Those would mean net-front, left and right flank, bumper, and point. I do this not because I want to set up a cookie-cutter Ovechkin power play, but because I think those labels are very flexible and in keeping with the variety of things that people do on the power play. For example:
- the net front guy might prefer sag below the goal line and act more like a playmaker
- the bumper might crash the net, take the place of the tips/screen guy if the first guy is sagging down, or float in space like a rover, doing anything he might be good at.
- either flank might come down the half boards, or circle up high and act as the second point man, or even be a second defenseman. Ideally they'd be balanced in that way - obviously I'm not going to put a defenseman in both of these positions and one on the point, that'd be silly. Even better if you've got you best playmaker and best distance shooter here.
- If possible, I'd like the pass-first flank to be playing on his strong side and the shoot first flank on his off side, but variations can and do exist everywhere.
- Doesn't really matter if the guy I have labelled "P" is a shooter or a passer, but he definitely shouldn't be Peter Bondra.
I think just about any power play set up can be described with some combination of those, though it's probably simpler to just list 3 forwards and 2 pointman as they would line up for a for a faceoffs. I wouldn't judge an ATD powerplay that doesn't line up the exact set of roles I've described here, but I would give a side-eye to one that threw out 3 Ciccarelli types and two defensemen, whether or not those players played LW, C and RW or not.
Just some thoughts on how roles can change situationally.
Hawkey Town 18
Registered User
I won't go into detail, because it's been said, but the comments about a PP not needing LW-C-RW are correct. You need players to play specific roles. One thing I'm not too keen on is 2 forwards on the point, one is totally fine.
One other thing that I don't think is as universally agreed as the above, but I am a strong believer in, is that you should absolutely load up your first PP unit with your best players (as long as they can fill a role of course). IMO the top PP unit is far more important than the second unit.
Just so there's no confusion, this does not translate to the PK. Sure, the first unit is more important, but not nearly to the same degree, as a successful PK will almost always run through both units. The same cannot be said of a successful PP.
One other thing that I don't think is as universally agreed as the above, but I am a strong believer in, is that you should absolutely load up your first PP unit with your best players (as long as they can fill a role of course). IMO the top PP unit is far more important than the second unit.
Just so there's no confusion, this does not translate to the PK. Sure, the first unit is more important, but not nearly to the same degree, as a successful PK will almost always run through both units. The same cannot be said of a successful PP.
overpass
Registered User
- Jun 7, 2007
- 5,265
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Thanks. I’m happy with Kelly and Moore as part of a leadership team. I also think Toews is the best leader of his generation and the rest of the team should fall in line behind him.
Hawkey Town 18
Registered User
FWIW, I think Toews is a fine ATD Captain in a draft this size (basically, as long as he's a 3rd line C or higher, I think he's a good Captain).
Dreakmur
Registered User
Looking for some thoughts on my pp too.
Gretzky is obvious.
Conacher is obvious too, but not sure if I should play him on the point. He’s got two borderline all-star seasons as a defenseman, so he should be a liability.
Marty Barry is a lock as well.
I’m thinking Niedermayer ahead of Stapleton.
That leaves Bobby Bauer as the third forward unless I move Conacher up front and go with Stapleton as a second defenseman.
Tommy Phillips likely plays on my top PK unit, so not sure I want him on the top PP too.
Gretzky is obvious.
Conacher is obvious too, but not sure if I should play him on the point. He’s got two borderline all-star seasons as a defenseman, so he should be a liability.
Marty Barry is a lock as well.
I’m thinking Niedermayer ahead of Stapleton.
That leaves Bobby Bauer as the third forward unless I move Conacher up front and go with Stapleton as a second defenseman.
Tommy Phillips likely plays on my top PK unit, so not sure I want him on the top PP too.
Hawkey Town 18
Registered User
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Niedermayer is a really weak PP1 guy. Very ES-skewed defenseman. I would think that Stapleton is definitely better on the PP.
Dreakmur
Registered User
Dreakmur
Registered User
Tommy Phillips - Wayne Gretzky - Charlie Conacher
Brad Marchand - Marty Barry - Bobby Bauer
Artemi Panarin - Cooney Weiland - Claude Provost
Brian Sutter - __________ - Floyd Curry
Scott Niedermayer - Drew Doughty
Pat Stapleton - Bill White
__________ - PK Subban
Jacques Plante
Henrik Lundqvist
Hawkey Town 18
Registered User
Thanks.
You're lacking a true #1 PP point man, but nothing you can do about that now, and you have Gretzky, and he makes up for a lot. Also seems like you don't really have the forwards to put Conacher on the point (also not sure if I'd buy him there, he does have a hard shot). I'd go with Stapleton - Subban on the first unit and Niedermayer - Doughty on the second unit.
If Barry is on your 1st unit, who is centering your 2nd unit? Weiland could maybe do it, but not ideal and if he's PKing that's a lot of minutes for him. Maybe draft a 4th line center for the 2nd PP? Gretzky will get a lot of PP time anyway, so it's a reduced role.
I guess that leaves you with Bauer and Marchand as the 2nd unit wings. Seems the point men will be the strength of that unit.
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