ATD 2013 Lineup Advice Thread

[Johnny Engine]

Sounds like we're describing Joe Nieuwendyk without the faceoffs. How does that sound?

 

[VanIslander]

Sounds like we're describing Joe Nieuwendyk without the faceoffs. How does that sound?

Except Joe was more like Espo in going into high traffic areas near the net and scoring goals up close, rather than on slapshots or periphery play. Petrov went to the net a lot less, from the games I've seen (I plan to see more this year).

 

[Pominville Knows]

Sounds like we're describing Joe Nieuwendyk without the faceoffs. How does that sound?

I also thought that earlier, did'nt bother to post it though. But VanIslander is also correct. However i feel Petrov is a better playmaker than Nieuwendyk.

 

[Pominville Knows]

When it comes to my third and fourth line i'm thinking that probably i should do it like this:

Bob Gainey-Guy Carbonneau-Bobby Schmautz
Simon Gagne-Bengt-Ã…ke Gustafsson-Marcel Bonin

My top three lines are supposed to play as much as eachother, with the fourth resting maybe five minutes after a shift although some of them also will be on the PK. However i keep coming back to wanting Gagnes offense on the third and let the fourth play more. Andy Hebenton would probably then replace Marcel Bonin. Thoughts?

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

When it comes to my third and fourth line i'm thinking that probably i should do it like this:

Bob Gainey-Guy Carbonneau-Bobby Schmautz
Simon Gagne-Bengt-Ã…ke Gustafsson-Marcel Bonin

My top three lines are supposed to play as much as eachother, with the fourth resting maybe five minutes after a shift although some of them also will be on the PK. However i keep coming back to wanting Gagnes offense on the third and let the fourth play more. Andy Hebenton would probably then replace Marcel Bonin. Thoughts?

That third line is nasty.

 

[Dreakmur]

When it comes to my third and fourth line i'm thinking that probably i should do it like this:

Bob Gainey-Guy Carbonneau-Bobby Schmautz
Simon Gagne-Bengt-Ã…ke Gustafsson-Marcel Bonin

My top three lines are supposed to play as much as eachother, with the fourth resting maybe five minutes after a shift although some of them also will be on the PK. However i keep coming back to wanting Gagnes offense on the third and let the fourth play more. Andy Hebenton would probably then replace Marcel Bonin. Thoughts?

Isn't Hebenton better than Schmautz?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

When it comes to my third and fourth line i'm thinking that probably i should do it like this:

Bob Gainey-Guy Carbonneau-Bobby Schmautz
Simon Gagne-Bengt-Ã…ke Gustafsson-Marcel Bonin

My top three lines are supposed to play as much as eachother, with the fourth resting maybe five minutes after a shift although some of them also will be on the PK. However i keep coming back to wanting Gagnes offense on the third and let the fourth play more. Andy Hebenton would probably then replace Marcel Bonin. Thoughts?

Schmautz seems to drag down what would otherwise be an awesome shut down line. I was seriously consider putting Gustafsson there. Isn't Gustafsson more or a RW than center?

Isn't Hebenton better than Schmautz?

I guess that could work, though Hebenton seems like more of a gritty offensive player who could back check than a defensive guy.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Isn't Hebenton better than Schmautz?

Might be. Schmautz did have some injury problems dragging his season totals down though, and he did not always play on the first line. He is a real nasty player with that crazy shot to boot that i hope can get the line a goal every once in a while. Mainly an even strenght performer. But i'm happy with Hebenton, i got some work set out for me.

 

[VanIslander]

Bob Gainey-Guy Carbonneau-Bobby Schmautz

Has Gainey and Carbo ever been re-united since I did it in ATD3 with my Victoria Aristocrats, waaay back in 2005? (I had Lehtinen at right wing, but it was a 15-team draft); Schmautz is a fine third liner with his toughness, edgy combativeness, and secondary scoring.

Consider that third line able to shutdown opposing center-right wing rushes, like in the same division: Federko-Recchi, Schmidt-Hextall, Sr., Keats-Maltsev. The only top-35 drafted pivot Carbo will have to face is Schmidt, so I dunno whether to think drafting Carbo early a wise move or a waste. Certainly, he will be effective, and with Gainey on his wing, passing centers won't be so successful dishing off the rubber.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Yes the Carbonneau pick was premature, but i just love the guy and are willing to bring a personally made HoF-plaque with me when i first go to Toronto. Just tape it up in there where he belongs.

 

[BubbaBoot]

Schmautzie was more a 2nd line guy, although he did float up and around the first line for a brief while after XXXXX was traded because Bucyk's career was winding down and Middleton and O'Reilly really hadn't come full on yet.

He had a great shot but sometimes, with the banana blade he used, it would fly off uncontrollably. He did average around 22-23 goals/season over 7 seasons for the Bruins.

He was a bit of a wingnut, taking some foolish penalties more times than he should've but coach XXX XXXXXX liked him so he did get some preferred treatment. He was a middleweight, on the smaller side (5'9" / 170 lbs), but he wouldn't back down from anyone and took on some of the era's well known heavyweights, although he did curtail his fighting somewhat after leaving Vancouver.

He really was not known for defense, (if that's where you want to use the 3rd line for), but given the two other guys on the line I don't think the deficiencies will drag down the line, it may in fact provide a bit of a nasty edge with a possible breakout offensive factor. While he wasn't a fast skater, I don't remember him getting easily knocked off the puck and would do just about anything to get a clear shot on net.

 

[VMBM]

Kharlamov is definitely the "up man" in the defensive zone, at least circa 1975-76. Between Mikhailov and Petrov, I'd say that Mikhailov is the more active player up and down the ice. The Soviets played a very passive 1-2-2 forechecking system at the time, with Mikhailov as the deep guy, but he was also hustling on the backcheck and going deep into his own zone a lot. Petrov and Kharlamov are high on the forecheck, and Kharlamov didn't really do much (mostly a lot of "drive by" pokechecking, which almost never works against NHLers), but Petrov looks pretty good as a high forechecker and would also go down into his zone fairly often in support.

Yep. I think it was poster Dark Shadows who tried to sell the idea that Kharlamov was a "two-way player" - but I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now. He was pretty useless in his own zone, although IMO he was a decent backchecker - when he wanted.

As far as Petrov and Mikhailov go, my impression is that Petrov usually works a little harder in his own zone (e.g. wrestles with the opposing players and so forth), at least when they're killing penalties together (I think they were paired much more often with each other than with Kharlamov), whereas Mikhailov's contribution is mostly, er, nasty stickwork (hooks etc.) and 'keeping away with the puck' routine. But I don't feel very strongly about this and it might be that I'm thinking of some particular tournament, game or the like.

I remember that Petrov's forechecking was very good e.g. in the 1972 Summit Series; there were quite a few plays where he stole the puck which then often created a scoring chance.

BTW, it's good that you're doing this work, because I think it's fair to say that you're more analytical and have a deeper understanding of the game itself, whereas I just mostly enjoy watching the old games and my enthusiasm sort of comes and goes.

PS. Yes, the Soviets were lousy at faceoffs. This coupled with the fact that they were not very good at getting the puck out of their own zone resulted to NA teams often dominating the play for long periods (most notably the Flyers in 1976).

 

[Sturminator]

PS. Yes, the Soviets were lousy at faceoffs. This coupled with the fact that they were not very good at getting the puck out of their own zone resulted to NA teams often dominating the play for long periods (most notably the Flyers in 1976).

The Soviets didn't really seem to understand, on a systematic level, the kind of deep and aggressive forechecking used by teams like the Flyers, Habs and Sabres at that time, and I think it's no coincidence that they struggled the most in these games. Before the influence of Canadian hockey, I think the Soviets saw forechecking as the beginning of defense, rather than as another form of offense, and as they didn't execute Canadian-style schemes, themselves, they also didn't have much experience in defending against them.

 

[Sturminator]

As far as Petrov and Mikhailov go, my impression is that Petrov usually works a little harder in his own zone (e.g. wrestles with the opposing players and so forth), at least when they're killing penalties together (I think they were paired much more often with each other than with Kharlamov), whereas Mikhailov's contribution is mostly, er, nasty stickwork (hooks etc.) and 'keeping away with the puck' routine. But I don't feel very strongly about this and it might be that I'm thinking of some particular tournament, game or the like.

Yeah, Mikhailov - Petrov looks like the top penalty killing pair of forwards, or at least the pair that was used most often from that line. I've seen Mikhailov - Kharlamov a couple of times. At one point, I think in the Philadelphia game, Kharlamov went in for a faceoff on the PK...with predictable results. I don't know if I've seen Kharlamov - Petrov on the PK...but I might have just missed it. Z - A seem to be the other set of forward penalty killers at this point.

My colleague mentioned today in passing that A was a very good player (which one can see watching the video), but ran into drinking problems, which is why he crashed out of the national team so quickly. It's a shame, really, just how many of the European players from the 1970's had their careers screwed up or their lives ended by drinking and/or driving. Suchy, Svedberg, A, Kharlamov...and I'm sure there are others.

I mean...it has happened to NHL players, too (Litzenberger, Heatley, MacTavish, etc.), but never so many stars in such a small span of time.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Yeah, Mikhailov - Petrov looks like the top penalty killing pair of forwards, or at least the pair that was used most often from that line. I've seen Mikhailov - Kharlamov a couple of times. At one point, I think in the Philadelphia game, Kharlamov went in for a faceoff on the PK...with predictable results. I don't know if I've seen Kharlamov - Petrov on the PK...but I might have just missed it. Z - A seem to be the other set of forward penalty killers at this point.

What about Vladimir Shadrin? To me, he was the premier Soviet defensive forward of the 1970s and had that big PK in the 1976 Olympics. That's the only example I've seen of his penalty killing, but I'd be surprised if he was not killing penalties ahead of anyone of the KPM line.

 

[VMBM]

PS. Yes, the Soviets were lousy at faceoffs. This coupled with the fact that they were not very good at getting the puck out of their own zone resulted to NA teams often dominating the play for long periods (most notably the Flyers in 1976).

Just to make myself a bit clearer; I meant that when they faced heavy pressure/aggressive forechecking, they would easily make bad/desperate passes which would result to turnovers or icing.

Of course, when the Soviets finally had some room and they saw an opening, they could and would break out of their zone very quickly and be very dangerous; there are many examples of that in the CSKA vs. Bruins game in 1976 (oh, the brilliant - though scoreless - first period of that game )

What about Vladimir Shadrin? To me, he was the premier Soviet defensive forward of the 1970s and had that big PK in the 1976 Olympics. That's the only example I've seen of his penalty killing, but I'd be surprised if he was not killing penalties ahead of anyone of the KPM line.

Much of the talk here has been about the 1975-76 Super Series involving CSKA, and Shadrin didn't play for CSKA, so maybe that's one of the reasons his name hadn't come up.

Hmmm, I can't say for sure who the top penalty killers on the Soviet national team in the 1970s were, but I'd say Mikhailov, Petrov and Shadrin are all strong candidates.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

My 4th line currently looks like this...

Dennis Hull - Craig Conroy - Ryan Kesler

I have the option of inserting Chris Drury at LW. Hull brings more offense and size, and is the better player IMO. If Drury was on the line it would pretty much be a shutdown line with little offense. One pro about Drury is he could fill in on the point on the 2nd PP unit for the small amount of time that Housley won't be there. If that doesn't happen, Ching Johnson will fill in, which is less than ideal.

Thoughts on this?


Here is my entire lineup for easy reference...
Woody Dumart - Doug Gilmour - Mike Bossy
Paul Thompson - Frank Fredrickson - Bob Nevin
Gilles Tremblay - Ivan Hlinka - John MacLean
Dennis Hull - Craig Conroy - Ryan Kesler

Ching Johnson - Carl Brewer
Art Duncan - Jack Crawford
Phil Housley - Al Arbour

Jacques Plante
Cy Denneny


Extra: Chris Drury, Viktor Shalimov


Power Play
Frank Fredrickson - Doug Gilmour - Mike Bossy
Art Duncan - Phil Housley

Paul Thompson - Ivan Hlinka - John MacLean
Carl Brewer - Phil Housley/Ching Johnson


Penalty Kill
Bob Nevin - Craig Conroy
Ching Johnson - Jack Crawford
Jacques Plante

Gilles Tremblay - Ryan Kesler
Carl Brewer - Al Arbour
Jacques Plante

 

[overpass]

My 4th line currently looks like this...

Dennis Hull - Craig Conroy - Ryan Kesler

I have the option of inserting Chris Drury at LW. Hull brings more offense and size, and is the better player IMO. If Drury was on the line it would pretty much be a shutdown line with little offense. One pro about Drury is he could fill in on the point on the 2nd PP unit for the small amount of time that Housley won't be there. If that doesn't happen, Ching Johnson will fill in, which is less than ideal.

Thoughts?

Yeah, your team is really counting on Housley at the point on the power play.

Brewer was a wonderful skater and passer who can run a second unit, but he had a weak shot. You need a shooter with him to be a threat from the point and give you some space down low. Dennis Hull had the hardest shot of all your players...

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Yeah, your team is really counting on Housley at the point on the power play.

Brewer was a wonderful skater and passer who can run a second unit, but he had a weak shot. You need a shooter with him to be a threat from the point and give you some space down low. Dennis Hull had the hardest shot of all your players...

That was part of the reason I took him, but I haven't found any evidence of him playing the point on the PP. I think it's the best move...Brewer is great defensively and Hull will be playing very low minutes with Housley using up most of them, but a player doing something he may have never done in real life is a tough sell in the ATD.

 

[Pominville Knows]

So what are your thoughts of Jeff Brown who i picked up last night? I obviously have him in mind to man a point on the PP, not play him regularly if it's possible to carry seven defensemen.

Should Demers order the other players to keep their wives in sight ?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So what are your thoughts of Jeff Brown who i picked up last night? I obviously have him in mind to man a point on the PP, not play him regularly if it's possible to carry seven defensemen.

Should Demers order the other players to keep their wives in sight ?

I think it's possible to play seven defensemen, but it's going to be more complicated - meaning you'll have to concisely explain to everyone what the plan is in your roster post, probably along with a minutes chart - you'll see minutes charts popping up in this thread pretty soon.

In ATD 2010, I came really close to drafting Phil Housley and using him as a 7th defenseman / 4th line winger at even strength since I had Gordie Howe who could handle double shifting. Though Housley actually did play some forward early in his career in real life. I don't think Jeff Brown ever played forward though, but I could be wrong.

 

[Pominville Knows]

I think it's possible to play seven defensemen, but it's going to be more complicated - meaning you'll have to concisely explain to everyone what the plan is in your roster post, probably along with a minutes chart - you'll see minutes charts popping up in this thread pretty soon.

In ATD 2010, I came really close to drafting Phil Housley and using him as a 7th defenseman / 4th line winger at even strength since I had Gordie Howe who could handle double shifting. Though Housley actually did play some forward early in his career in real life. I don't think Jeff Brown ever played forward though, but I could be wrong.

But how many players can we have on the bench? Only 20?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

But how many players can we have on the bench? Only 20?

Just like the NHL, you can ice 18 skaters and 2 goalies. Enough for 4 lines, 3 defense pairs, and 2 goalies. So you can go with 7 defensemen if you want, but then you'd have to figure out which forward(s) is/are double-shifting.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Thoughts on my minutes chart? Should my 2nd line be playing more? 3rd line less? (Went with the standard 7min of PP and PK time)

Woody Dumart - Doug Gilmour - Mike Bossy
Paul Thompson - Frank Fredrickson - Bob Nevin
Gilles Tremblay - Ivan Hlinka - John MacLean
Dennis Hull - Craig Conroy - Ryan Kesler

Ching Johnson - Carl Brewer
Art Duncan - Jack Crawford
Phil Housley - Al Arbour


Forward Minutes

Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
Dumart | 16 | 0 | 0 | 16
Gilmour | 16 | 4 | 0 | 20
Bossy | 16 | 5 | 0 | 21
Thompson | 13 | 3 | 0 | 16
Fredrickson | 13 | 4 | 0 | 17
Nevin | 13 | 0 | 4 | 17
Tremblay | 12 | 0 | 3 | 15
Hlinka | 12 | 3 | 0 | 15
MacLean | 12 | 2 | 0 | 14
Hull | 5 | 1 | 0 | 6
Conroy | 5 | 0 | 4 | 9
Kesler | 5 | 0 | 3 | 8
TOTAL | 138 | 22 | 14 | 174

Defense Minutes

Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
Johnson | 18.5 | 0 | 4 | 22.5
Brewer | 18.5 | 2.5 | 3 | 24
Duncan | 16.5 | 4.5 | 0 | 21
Crawford | 16.5 | 0 | 4 | 20.5
Housley | 11 | 6 | 0 | 17
Arbour | 11 | 0 | 3 | 14
TOTAL | 92 | 13 | 14 | 119

 

[Pominville Knows]

As you may remember my lower lines where like this the last time:

Gainey-Carbonneau-with Schmautz ready to take pass and slap it. Playing 1C minutes.

Gagne-Bonin-Gustafsson. This line would'nt play much but could find Gagne lighting the lamp some times.


But now i'm thinking something like:

Gagne-Carbonneau-Hebenton. A line capable of going 1-1 against top opponents.

Gainey-Gustafsson-Schmautz. Will play more than in the other scenario, looking kinda harmonic except for the grit and nastyness of course.

Whatta you think?