ATD 2013 Draft Draft Thread IV

[Dreakmur]

They bring pretty much exactly the same skillset, but Gonchar was a better offensive player, while Boyle was marginally the better defensive player. I wouldn't feel fully comfortable with having both of them in my top-4, although if I had to choose I would prefer Boyle. Phil Housley is pretty much in the same situation of those guys, although the spectrum of offense-defence is even worst. Better offensively than Gonchar, but also worst defensively.

There's nothing wrong with any of Gonchar, Housley, or Boyle in the top-4. Conchar is a good #3 and the other two are solid #4s. It's all about how you surround them.

Gonchar is teamed with Bob Goldham, which gives the pair a great mix of talents. Not to mention Hod Stuart and Earl Seibert on the top pairing.

 

[Dreakmur]

Yeah , Gonchar was better offensively no question.

By a lot....

 

[EagleBelfour]

I would also think that Boyle is a superior leader to Gonchar, but none should be consider leaders in this format. Is being a better makes someone an overall more complete hockey player?

Unfortunately, my #1 memory of Gonchar will always be seeing him let Travis Moen passing him like he did in in games#7 of the Eastern semi-final against the Montreal Canadiens. Still today the most abysmal play I have ever seen by a NHL defenceman.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I would also think that Boyle is a superior leader to Gonchar, but none should be consider leaders in this format. Is being a better makes someone an overall more complete hockey player?

Unfortunately, my #1 memory of Gonchar will always be seeing him let Travis Moen passing him like he did in in games#7 of the Eastern semi-final against the Montreal Canadiens. Still today the most abysmal play I have ever seen by a NHL defenceman.

I remember that play lol.

To be honest I was embarrassed for him even though I was happy that we won.



Looking at it now it's even worst than my memories.

 

[EagleBelfour]

There's nothing wrong with any of Gonchar, Housley, or Boyle in the top-4. Conchar is a good #3 and the other two are solid #4s. It's all about how you surround them.

Gonchar is teamed with Bob Goldham, which gives the pair a great mix of talents. Not to mention Hod Stuart and Earl Seibert on the top pairing.

I wrote: ''I wouldn't feel comfortable'', although in a 32-teams draft both of them will end up on a top-4, and deservedly so. Pair them up with strong stay-at-home defenceman and it's fine.

Phil Housley on the other hand, I can't see him playing regular top-4 minutes in the All-Time Draft. So many great all-time players playing on teams second line. For example, we have Eric Lindros, Didier Pitre & Alf Smith on our second line. Housley would get completely dominated if he had to play a full game against those three guys.

 

[DoMakc]

By a lot....

Not really... not enough to overcome his defencive shortcomings. He had 1,5-2 season of being reliable defencively, before injuries caught up with him. Boyle was never a sieve, and has much longer history of being top pairing defenceman (6-7 seasons) on successful teams. Boyle's problem (especially before lockout'05) was size, Gonchar was just plain bad. And I don't need to see Norris finishes to say that, while Gonchar was better offencively and on PP, it isn't enough to close the gap defencively. Especially since Boyle more than capable offencively, and role on team, coach's philosophy and PP TOI influences the point finishes.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Not really... not enough to overcome his defencive shortcomings. He had 1,5-2 season of being reliable defencively, before injuries caught up with him. Boyle was never a sieve, and has much longer history of being top pairing defenceman (6-7 seasons) on successful teams. Boyle's problem (especially before lockout'05) was size, Gonchar was just plain bad. And I don't need to see Norris finishes to say that, while Gonchar was better offencively and on PP, it isn't enough to close the gap defencively. Especially since Boyle more than capable offencively, and role on team, coach's philosophy and PP TOI influences the point finishes.

To be fair it's pretty clear that Gonchar has had a better offensive career than Boyle though.

Gonchar 50+ pts seasons: 67 , 67 , 65 , 59 , 58 , 58 , 57 , 54 , 50
Boyle 50+ pts seasons: 63 , 58 , 57 , 53 , 53 , 50

Their top scoring year actually overlapped , Gonchar scoring 67 and Boyle 63.Boyle was 2nd AST , Gonchar wasn't.

 

[DoMakc]

To be fair it's pretty clear that Gonchar has had a better offensive career than Boyle though.

Gonchar 50+ pts seasons: 67 , 67 , 65 , 59 , 58 , 58 , 57 , 54 , 50
Boyle 50+ pts seasons: 63 , 58 , 57 , 53 , 53 , 50

Their top scoring year actually overlapped , Gonchar scoring 67 and Boyle 63.Boyle was 2nd AST , Gonchar wasn't.

Well, I never suggested otherwise. I only said that it doesn't mean that Boyle wasn't capable offencively himself.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I remember that play lol.

To be honest I was embarrassed for him even though I was happy that we won.



Looking at it now it's even worst than my memories.

Yeah... good thing it wasn't Game 7 or anything like that..

 

[BenchBrawl]

Yeah... good thing it wasn't Game 7 or anything like that..

?

It was Game 7.

 

[Hobnobs]

?

It was Game 7.

I didnt think he would need to add a to that

 

[BenchBrawl]

I didnt think he would need to add a to that

I felt he was sarcastic but his intention wasn't clear if he wanted to laugh at Gonchar or not.

sorry for the confusion BC.

 

[VanIslander]

Hershey drafts HHOF winger Herbie Lewis, the highest paid NHLer in 1934-35, the year he captained the Detroit Red Wings, the year after he was 7th in NHL goals and the starting left winger in the first ever NHL all-star game. That 1935 postseason he led the Wings in goals with 5 as Detroit went to the Stanley Cup Finals for the first time ever. The following two seasons he was 4th in NHL assists, the second of which was followed up immediately with the first Stanley Cup championship in Motown. Lewis tied the lead in goal scoring in the Wings successful second cup the following postseason. Four times he was top-5 in all-star voting, three times at LW and once at RW. He had 248 PIMs to go with 309 points in 483 NHL games. His 279 points over a 9-year stretch from his sophomore year was within five points of the totals of Bill Cook, Dit Clapper, Paul Thompson, Howie Morenz and Hooley Smith, trailing only six others in NHL assists over that span, four of them centers in addition to wingers Busher Jackson and Paul Thompson. He had over a decade in the NHL. However, if he hadn't been under contract for four years of pro hockey in Duluth, he would have started in the NHL earlier, as he was actively recruited while starring there. As it was, he still had a Hockey Hall of Fame career.

... relentless defence and blinding speed... rough for a little guy, a good defensive winger and accurate playmaker, and considered the fastest skater in the NHL in his day with his trademark short, mincing steps.

A left wing more noted for his defensive talents than his scoring, he was known as the fastest skater in the league during the 1930's.

Lewis was best known as a fast skater, a creative passer...

A small, quick left-winger, Lewis possessed blazing speed on his blades and had a reputation as an accurate playmaker and a gentlemanly player.

"...a sportsman of the highest type. I defy baseball or football or boxing or any other sport to produce an individual who can eclipse Herbie Lewis as a perfect model of what an athlete should stand for."

Long before he made the leap to the NHL, Herbie Lewis was a wanted man. The Montreal Maroons signed him in 1926, but the deal was voided by NHL president Frank Calder, since Lewis was already under contract to the American Hockey Association's Duluth Hornets.

Lewis was a star with the Hornets, leading the team in scoring in 1925-26, earning the nickname "The Duke of Duluth" in the process. He was the league's biggest drawing card and its highest-paid performer.

Detroit manager Jack Adams astutely scooped up this budding star through the 1928 inter-league draft and Lewis blossomed in the Motor City.

Lewis garnered a pair of 20-goal seasons and seven times collected at least 30 points during 11 NHL campaigns, all spent with Detroit. The 1934-35 season proved to be his most productive, as Lewis earned 43 points, good for sixth in NHL scoring. He was also reported to be the recipient of the NHL's top salary, an annual stipend of $8,000.

Lewis captained the Red Wings to their first Stanley Cup final appearance in 1933-34 and scored the first Stanley Cup final goal and first playoff overtime marker in club history. He finished as the leading goal scorer in that spring's post-season.

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=43824

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I have LL's list.

The Toronto Maple Leafs select, Shea Weber, D

 

[Johnny Engine]

Was Velociraptor autoskipped for some reason?

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

Was Velociraptor autoskipped for some reason?

I don't think he was supposed to be. I think Toronto's pick was a gun jump.

 

[Velociraptor]

Getting heavy depth on the wings, shifting Dillon down to the third line and giving Kariya a type of right winger he had the most success with.

A guy who definitely knows a thing or two about goal-scoring, Mike Gartner, RW

 

[Velociraptor]

Nalyd's up now, I think that was premature but it doesn't matter because that's not who I wanted.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

My bad, I thought he was before VanI and that he was skipped in the however many hours since Modo picked...

 

[Dreakmur]

Hershey drafts HHOF winger Herbie Lewis, the highest paid NHLer in 1934-35, the year he captained the Detroit Red Wings, the year after he was 7th in NHL goals and the starting left winger in the first ever NHL all-star game. That 1935 postseason he led the Wings in goals with 5 as Detroit went to the Stanley Cup Finals for the first time ever. The following two seasons he was 4th in NHL assists, the second of which was followed up immediately with the first Stanley Cup championship in Motown. Lewis tied the lead in goal scoring in the Wings successful second cup the following postseason. Four times he was top-5 in all-star voting, three times at LW and once at RW. He had 248 PIMs to go with 309 points in 483 NHL games. His 279 points over a 9-year stretch from his sophomore year was within five points of the totals of Bill Cook, Dit Clapper, Paul Thompson, Howie Morenz and Hooley Smith, trailing only six others in NHL assists over that span, four of them centers in addition to wingers Busher Jackson and Paul Thompson. He had over a decade in the NHL. However, if he hadn't been under contract for four years of pro hockey in Duluth, he would have started in the NHL earlier, as he was actively recruited while starring there. As it was, he still had a Hockey Hall of Fame career.

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=43824

Better playmaker than Bauer.

 

[VanIslander]

Better playmaker than Bauer.

Thought you'd say that. Less goal scoring and more renowned defensive play relative to Bobby (though Bauer played both ends by accounts).

Here's a funny card from a Hockey Player Deck. They get his years wrong and his position (he was renowned for his defensive play, but he wasn't a defenseman):

Bauer's card also has mistakes regarding years of play, but looks nicer:

 

[BenchBrawl]

Has Leaf Lander been skipped automatically or what?

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

Has Leaf Lander been skipped automatically or what?

He takes Webber. Nalyd is on the clock.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Nalyd was gracious enough to allow the assistant GM here to make the selection. To risky to let him slip another round. So with my first ever ATD draft selection, it's my great pleasure to select: Dave Burrows, D

(snagged from a Pens-only profile I made for him, there's a couple of seasons outside of this that aren't fully accounted for)

Position: Defense
6'1" / 190 lbs.
Shoots: Left

---

League Recognition / Award Voting

Hart: 10th (3rd among D!)
Norris: 7th, 8th, 8th, t-13th*
All-Star Team (D): 7th, 8th, t-14th, t-16th*, t-22nd*

* - one vote

3x NHL All-Star: 1974, 1976, 1980
Was invited to camp Canada in the 1976 Canada Cup
-----

Approximate Ice Time Among Pens D-men:
1971-72: 3rd in ATOI, 3rd in ES TOI, 2nd in PK (was 3rd in ATOI, ES TOI to players with 34 and 44 games, respectively - Burrows played 77)
1972-73: 3rd in ATOI, 1st in ES TOI, 3rd in PK
1973-74: 1st in ATOI, 1st in ES TOI, 1st in PK
1974-75: 3rd in ATOI, 4th in ES TOI, 1st in PK
1975-76: 1st in ATOI, 1st in ES TOI, 1st in PK
1976-77: 2nd in ATOI, close 2nd in ES TOI, 3rd in PK
1977-78: 2nd in ATOI, 1st in ES TOI, 1st in PK
1980-81: 6th in ATOI, 6th in ES TOI, 6th in PK

---

Most people will agree that Bobby Orr is the best defenseman ever. But how about the best pure defensive defenseman? While there are a lot of candidates, one of them would have to be the heavily underrated and under appreciated Dave Burrows.

While Orr lit up the scoreboard during the 1970s, Burrows was busy preventing goals with the Pittsburgh Penguins...

Burrows wasn't a physically dominating, crease clearing blueliner. Instead he relied on a greater understanding of the game to be in perfect position no matter what scenario he was faced with. He was an expert shot blocker and above all else, was known as one of the best skaters of his time. He amazed many observers with his incredible speed and agility. Some felt he could skate faster backward than most could go forward.

"I took a lot of pride in being able to move laterally and backwards with great ease. It took a lot of practice, but it was something I enjoyed doing," he said.

"In fact, I used to get a big kick out of skating backwards on two-on-one breaks or one-on-one breaks against me when I was back on defense. It was a challenge trying to break up situations like that. I enjoyed that part of the game the most."

Unfortunately for Burrows and defensive minded rearguards like him during the 1970s, he received virtually no recognition. Bobby Orr revolutionized the way defensemen played the game. No longer were they on the ice to stop goals, but instead to create offense.

Ed. Note on last bolded: He was 3x Top-10 finisher for the Norris in that time!

...defensive star for the Pittsburgh Penguins. ||| The Penguins are surpassed in defensive ineptitude only by the Washington Capitals, Kansas City Scouts and New York Rangers. Burrows manages to rise above the record, a glittering example of a defenseman's defenseman. At long last, help is on the way.

"He is the best defenseman in hockey," Boileau said, "so why shouldn't he be on the ice?" That statement is easy to make as long as the cast remains on Bobby Orr's leg, but becoming the Penguins' designated "Superdefenseman" is all right with Burrows. ||| Boileau said he may even use Burrows on the point during the power play... ||| "He's cool out there," Boileau said, "and he anticipates well. The most important thing a pointman can do on the power play is keep the puck in the attacking zone, and Burrows does that well."

Two of the brightest stars in the Penguins' galaxy will be around the Civic Arena scoring goals and stopping goals for some time to come...Dave Burrows, one of the most rapidly-rising defensive players whose future is unlimited, has autographed a three-year paper. ||| St. Paul (WHA) sought Burrows' services with a bundle of greenbacks. There seems to be little argument among hockey men that Burrows rapidly is becoming one of the best defensemen in the NHL. He is not spectacular, like some defensemen, but it is seldom an opposing player is able to get past him for a good shot on goal.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Looking at Weber, it's pretty hard to argue he's not worthy at this point. He's basically got 4 relevant seasons, but in those 4 seasons he's been 2nd, 2nd, 5th, and 7th in AS voting and 2nd, 2nd, 4th, and 7th in Norris voting.