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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread I

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Nalyd Psycho said:
Fair enough. If Harvey and Beliveau are guys who's value is increased in an ATD, Shore's is decreased because he could be difficult.
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I don't think that's why his stuck has decreased. I think it has a lot more to do with our collectively improved research methods and understanding of what the numbers mean across different eras.
 
I'm going to borrow Dreak's bio:

Originally Posted by Greatest Hockey Legends
Though he too ranks as one of the greatest offensive defensemen ever, it was Bourque's defensive genius that set him aside from his peers. While his offensive game grabbed more headlines, Bourque's tremendous defensive instincts that rivaled anyone in the game's history. In a split second he could dissect the oncoming play and more often than not positioned himself perfectly to defend. Though not big, his incredible balance made him tough to play against. Therefore Bourque was not afraid to play the physical game when he had to.
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Ray Bourque !!![/CENTER]

Awards and Achievements:
Hockey Hall of Fame (2004)

2 x Stanley Cup Champion (1988, 2001)

5 x Norris Trophy Winner (1987, 1988, 1990, 1991, 1994)
13 x First Team All-Star (1980, 1982, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, 2001)
6 x Second Team All-Star (1981, 1983, 1986, 1989, 1995, 1999)

Voting Results:
Norris Trophy – 1st(1987), 1st(1988), 1st(1990), 1st(1991), 1st(1994), 2nd(1982), 2nd(1985), 2nd(1992), 2nd(1993), 2nd(1996), 2nd(2001), 3rd(1983), 3rd(1984), 3rd(1995), 3rd(1999), 4th(1980), 4th(1981), 4th(1986), 4th(1989), 7th(1997), 7th(1998), 7th(2000)

Hart Trophy – 2nd(1987), 2nd(1990), 4th(1991), 5th(1984), 5th(1985), 6th(1996), 8th(1988), 10th(1986), 11th(1996), 13th(1992), 14th(1981), 15th(1982)


Regular Season Scoring:
Points among Defensemen –1st(1987), 1st(1994), 2nd(1984), 2nd(1985), 2nd(1988), 2nd(1991), 2nd(1992), 2nd(1995), 2nd(1996), 2nd(1999), 3rd(1990), 3rd(1993), 3rd(2001), 4th(1986), 5th(1980), 5th(1983), 6th(2000), 7th(1997), 8th(1982)
 
Good pick with Bourque (I'd pick him over Shore), but sub top-10 Hart finishes (with I'm sure no more than a handful of votes) are just clutter when we are talking about first round picks.
 
Leafs Forever said:
I'm going to borrow Dreak's bio:





Ray Bourque !!![/CENTER]

Awards and Achievements:
Hockey Hall of Fame (2004)

2 x Stanley Cup Champion (1988, 2001)

5 x Norris Trophy Winner (1987, 1988, 1990, 1991, 1994)
13 x First Team All-Star (1980, 1982, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, 2001)
6 x Second Team All-Star (1981, 1983, 1986, 1989, 1995, 1999)

Voting Results:
Norris Trophy – 1st(1987), 1st(1988), 1st(1990), 1st(1991), 1st(1994), 2nd(1982), 2nd(1985), 2nd(1992), 2nd(1993), 2nd(1996), 2nd(2001), 3rd(1983), 3rd(1984), 3rd(1995), 3rd(1999), 4th(1980), 4th(1981), 4th(1986), 4th(1989), 7th(1997), 7th(1998), 7th(2000)

Hart Trophy – 2nd(1987), 2nd(1990), 4th(1991), 5th(1984), 5th(1985), 6th(1996), 8th(1988), 10th(1986), 11th(1996), 13th(1992), 14th(1981), 15th(1982)


Regular Season Scoring:
Points among Defensemen –1st(1987), 1st(1994), 2nd(1984), 2nd(1985), 2nd(1988), 2nd(1991), 2nd(1992), 2nd(1995), 2nd(1996), 2nd(1999), 3rd(1990), 3rd(1993), 3rd(2001), 4th(1986), 5th(1980), 5th(1983), 6th(2000), 7th(1997), 8th(1982)
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:( really wanted Bourque, nice pick LF.
 
Dreakmur said:
As I said earlier, everyone has their own "easy #5", but Bourque is mine. He's clearly better than Harvey, in my opinion, and I've done quite a lot of research on both guys.
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The one big advantage that Bourque has over Harvey is longevity, and longevity generally means a bit less in the ATD than on all-time lists.

Other than that, this is how I see them:

Advantages to Harvey: defense, puck handling, and outlet passing - giving him a better ability to control the pace of the game, intimidation (without taking penalties)

Advantages to Bourque: goal scoring and rushing with the puck - resulting in better even strength offense

Even: ability to run a powerplay (with Harvey a better QB and Bourque a better goal scorer and still very good QB)

I'd take Harvey's skillset in the ATD, but it's close.
 
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this is where LL's list would have been fun to have since he wanted himself to leave one.

nobody has it?
 
TheDevilMadeMe said:
The one big advantage that Bourque has over Harvey is longevity, and longevity generally means a bit less in the ATD than on all-time lists.
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Even if you cut it down to a certain number of years, Bourque still holds the advantage.

Bourque's best 5 seasons are better than Harvey's best 5.
Bourque's best 10 are better than Harvey's best 10.
Etc...

Other than that, this is how I see them:

Slight advantages to Harvey: defense, ability to control the pace of the game
Moderate advantage to Harvey: intimidation (without taking penalties)
Moderate advantage to Bourque: even strength offense
Even: ability to run a powerplay

I'd take Harvey's skillset in the ATD, but it's close.
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Based on what I found, their defense is both elite. Saying one is conclusively better than the other is unfair to both. They are about equal defensively.

Also, what about Harvey makes him significantly better at running a PP than Bourque? In terms of overall offense, Bourque has a significant advantage, so why is that advantage gone on the PP?
 
I edited my post slightly to make it more clear

Dreakmur said:
Based on what I found, their defense is both elite. Saying one is conclusively better than the other is unfair to both. They are about equal defensively.
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They were both elite, but from everything I've read - from first hand sources and observers after the fact, Harvey was noticably better than his peers. There are a couple of contemporaries of Bourque who were about even or maybe even marginally better.

Also, what about Harvey makes him significantly better at running a PP than Bourque? In terms of overall offense, Bourque has a significant advantage, so why is that advantage gone on the PP?
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I said they were even at running a PP. Harvey is arguably the best PP QB before Orr.
 
TheDevilMadeMe said:
They were both elite, but from what I've read, Harvey was noticably better than his peers. There are a couple of contemporaries of Bourque who were about even or maybe even marginally better.
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Bourque had the toughest group of peers ever. That's what makes his dominance over them so impressive.

I said they were even at running a PP. Harvey is arguably the best PP QB before Orr.
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But what makes him better on the PP than he is at even strength?

You agree that Bourque has a significant edge at even strength, so why does that change on the PP?
 
Dreakmur said:
You agree that Bourque has a significant edge at even strength, so why does that change on the PP?
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Because Harvey was a defense-first player at even strength who didn't join the offense - instead he spearheaded the transition game and controlled the pace of the game from the backend.

Do you really believe there is no difference between putting up points at even strength and running a powerplay for a defenseman?
 
TheDevilMadeMe said:
How on Earth did Bourque have a better peak 5 years???
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Here are Bourque's best 5 seasons......

2 Hart runner-ups, and 3 more top-5s.
5 Norris wins over much superios competition.
Led Defensemen in scoring twice, and runner-up 3 more times.

455 points in 381 regular season games
48 points in 48 play-off games

Top-10 in league assists 5 times
 
Dreakmur said:
Here are Bourque's best 5 seasons......

2 Hart runner-ups, and 3 more top-5s.
5 Norris wins over much superios competition.
Led Defensemen in scoring twice, and runner-up 3 more times.

455 points in 381 regular season games
48 points in 48 play-off games

Top-10 in league assists 5 times
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Harvey was 2nd in Hart voting as soon as he was traded away from a stacked team.

Other than that, I see a lot of judging defensemen by their point totals going on.
 
Dreakmur said:
Here are Bourque's best 5 seasons......

2 Hart runner-ups, and 3 more top-5s.
5 Norris wins over much superios competition.
Led Defensemen in scoring twice, and runner-up 3 more times.

455 points in 381 regular season games
48 points in 48 play-off games

Top-10 in league assists 5 times
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(MOD: obvious reference to undrafted deleted)

Let me rephrase it. There is a player who will be drafted at some point of this draft, who was better that any competition, Bourque faced.
 
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