ATD 2011 Draft Thread II

[vancityluongo]

A lot of people wrote off Sundin when he got taken.

Yeah, when he got taken. Which was about 50 or so picks ago...of course people would be critical about him as a pick then. I'm pretty sure either of them are perfectly capable first liners in a 40 team draft.

 

[arrbez]

A lot of people wrote off Sundin when he got taken. I'm here to tell you that Delvecchio is no better than Sundin offensively.

That's great Jarek, glad you're here to do that. I don't agree with that, but I don't want to get you all worked up either so we'll leave it at that.

I think Delvecchio stacks up very well offensively against the remaining LWers, and his ability to play C at an equally high level is a major plus. And then of course, his all-around game, leadership, and incredible longevity and durability certainly add a lot to his resume.

 

[jarek]

That's great Jarek, glad you're here to do that. I don't agree with that, but I don't want to get you all worked up either so we'll leave it at that.

I think Delvecchio stacks up very well offensively against the remaining LWers, and his ability to play C at an equally high level is a major plus. And then of course, his all-around game, leadership, and incredible longevity and durability certainly add a lot to his resume.

Why do you disagree?

EDIT: Alright, I looked at Sundin's best top-20 seasons, 8 of them, so let's see how he compares to Alex Delvecchio, a guy who was never quite elite, but very good for a very long time, and a guy who nobody would bat an eyelash at being called much better than Sundin offensively, most likely. Delvecchio's best top-10 seasons:

1952-1953: 59 (4th) (83%)
1957-1958: 59 (8th) (74%)
1961-1962: 69 (6th) (82%) (2 guys tied for 84 points for first place this year, which is the number I used)
1962-1963: 64 (8th) (79%)
1964-1965: 67 (5th) (81%)
1965-1966: 69 (7th) (88%)
1967-1968: 70 (8th) (83%)
1968-1969: 83 (7th) (78%)

Sundin: 89, 86, 86, 81, 78, 78, 77, 74
Delvecchio: 88, 83, 83, 82, 81, 79, 78, 74

And this is comparing an accepted first liner to a fourth liner, but they come out almost the same. A guy who is generally well accepted as a top-100 player, versus a guy I drafted 298th. I understand that Delvecchio has intangibles over Sundin, and it may not be close, but c'mon.. percentages wise, they come out so close, but Delvecchio's look prettier on paper because they are top-10s whereas most of Sundin's are in the top-20. Delvecchio has several other top-10s (3, to be exact), but those compare similarly percentage wise to the other finishes of Sundin outside the top-20.

 

[Sturminator]

The Gwinnett Gladiators select defenseman Jacques Laperriere.

Quick notes on Laperriere:

- Jacques finished top-5 in Norris trophy voting six times in his career, tying him with Tim Horton, Guy Lapointe, Brian Leetch and Al MacInnis. Good company.

- Laperriere was chosen in a 73-74 coaches poll, at the age of 32 and in his last season in the league (he would suffer a career-ending knee injury shortly after the poll was taken), as the 3rd best defensive defenseman in the league, behind Borje Salming and an undrafted player. Note that this is not one of his top-5 Norris seasons.

Laperriere's game in his own words (from this article):

"It's a simple thing," Jacques modestly explained. "You cover the area you're responsible for. You don't get caught out of position. You gain control of the puck. You pass it to somebody or else you carry it over the blueline and then pass it to somebody else. You don't take chances — that's for forwards to do. Stay away from the offense unless it's absolutely safe."

In spite of that, Laperriere finished top-5 in defensemen scoring four times in his career, due to his excellent outlet passing.

I don't think Paul Coffey could ask for a better partner.

 

[vancityluongo]

And this is comparing an accepted first liner to a fourth liner, but they come out almost the same.

Sorry, but in what world is Mats Sundin a fourth liner in the ATD? Even if you got him at 289, that's only an 8th round pick in this draft...unless you're talking about in a 6 team draft...

 

[jarek]

Sorry, but in what world is Mats Sundin a fourth liner in the ATD? Even if you got him at 289, that's only an 8th round pick in this draft...unless you're talking about in a 6 team draft...

It was a 20 team ATD at Leafscentral.

 

[vancityluongo]

It was a 20 team ATD at Leafscentral.

And Delvecchio was an accepted first liner? Was he playing center for Gordie Howe...

I can agree with you that any percieved gap between them (offensively) shouldn't actually be that big. Where I don't agree is that I think with all the intangibles and versatility, Delvecchio is a much more valuable player in this context, and that either of them are easily capable offensive line players.

 

[jarek]

And Delvecchio was an accepted first liner? Was he playing center for Gordie Howe...

I can agree with you that any percieved gap between them (offensively) shouldn't actually be that big. Where I don't agree is that I think with all the intangibles and versatility, Delvecchio is a much more valuable player in this context, and that either of them are easily capable offensive line players.

Oh, I won't argue that Delvecchio isn't a much better player, because he is. I'm just saying, offensively, there's virtually nothing to choose from between them..

 

[BraveCanadian]

The Gwinnett Gladiators select defenseman Jacques Laperriere.

Quick notes on Laperriere:

- Jacques finished top-5 in Norris trophy voting six times in his career, tying him with Tim Horton, Guy Lapointe, Brian Leetch and Al MacInnis. Good company.

- Laperriere was chosen in a 73-74 coaches poll, at the age of 32 and in his last season in the league (he would suffer a career-ending knee injury shortly after the poll was taken), as the 3rd best defensive defenseman in the league, behind Borje Salming and an undrafted player. Note that this is not one of his top-5 Norris seasons.

Laperriere's game in his own words (from this article):



I don't think Paul Coffey could ask for a better partner.

Great partner for Coffey.

 

[markrander87]

Can I leave a list?

 

[DoMakc]

Can I leave a list?

yes.

 

[thatguy17]

the vancouver velocity are proud to select...

Sidney Crosby


IIHF
Youngest player to score in a World Junior Tournament (16 years, 4 months, 21 days)[59]
Youngest player to win a World Championship scoring title[60]
Pittsburgh Penguins
Assists (63) and points (102) in a season by a rookie[84]
NHL
First rookie to record 100 points and 100 penalty minutes in a season[85]
Youngest player to record 100 points in a season[26]
Youngest player to record 200 career points (19 years and 207 days)[86]
Youngest player to record 2 consecutive 100 point seasons.[87]
Youngest player voted to the starting lineup in an All-Star Game[88]
Youngest Art Ross Trophy and Lester B. Pearson Award winner[5][35]
Youngest player to be named to the First All-Star Team[37]
Youngest full team captain (In January 1984, Brian Bellows of the Minnesota North Stars was made interim captain at 5 months younger than Crosby, but he only served the latter half of the 1983–84 season replacing injured captain Craig Hartsburg)
Youngest Player to Lead NHL Playoffs in scoring (20 years, 9 months, and 28 days)
Youngest NHL captain to win Stanley Cup (21 years, 10 months, and 5 days)


Hart Trophy (most valuable player) - June 2007
Lester Pearson Award (most outstanding player) - June 2007
Art Ross Award (leading scorer during the regular season) - June 2007
NHL First All-Star Team - 2007 - June 2007
Captain of the Pittsburgh Penguins (also the youngest captain in NHL history) - May 2007
Selected for the All-Star Game (& Youngest player ever to voted in an NHL allstar game) - February 2007
Mark Messier Leadership Award - January 2007
Youngest player in NHL history to record 100 points in a season - 2006
First rookie to record 100 points and 100 penalty minutes in a season - 2006
Pittsburgh Penguins' franchise record for points in a season by a rookie (102) - 2006
Pittsburgh Penguins' franchise record for assists in a season by a rookie (63) - 2006
NHL All-Rookie Team - June 2006
Rookie of the Month - October, 2005
NHL First Draft Pick overall - July, 2005


International Hockey
Ice Hockey World Championships All-Star Team - 2006
Ice Hockey World Championships Leading Scorer - 2006
Ice Hockey World Championships Best Forward - 2006
World Junior Championships Gold Medal - 2005
World Junior Championships Silver Medal - 2004


Canadian Hockey League (CHL)
Ed Chynoweth Award (Memorial Cup Leading Scorer) - 2005
Memorial Cup All-Star Team - 2005
Top Pro Prospect - 2005
Canada Post Cup (three stars) - 2004/2005
Leading Scorer - 2004/2005
Player of the Year - 2004/2005
Rookie of the Year - 1999


Quebec Major Junior Hockey League (QMJHL)
Guy Lafleur Trophy (Playoff MVP) - 2005
Mike Bossy Trophy (Best Professional Prospect) - 2005
Jean Béliveau Trophy (Leading Scorer) - 2004/2005
Paul Dumont Trophy - 2004/2005
Offensive Player of the Year - 2004/2005
Michel Briere Trophy (Most Valuable Player QMJHL) - 2004/2005
QMJHL All-Rookie Team - 2004
QMJHL First All-Star Team - 2004/2005
QMJHL Rookie of the Year - 2004

Stanley Cup Championship (with Pittsburgh Penguins) – June 2009
Selected for the All-Star Game - February 2008
Hart Trophy (most valuable player) – June 2007
Lester Pearson Award (most outstanding player) – June 2007
Art Ross Award (leading scorer during the regular season) – June 2007
NHL First All-Star Team – 2007 – June 2007
Captain of the Pittsburgh Penguins (also the youngest captain in NHL history) – May 2007
Selected for the All-Star Game (& Youngest player ever to voted in an NHL allstar game) – February 2007
Mark Messier Leadership Award – January 2007
Youngest player in NHL history to record 100 points in a season – 2006
First rookie to record 100 points and 100 penalty minutes in a season – 2006
Pittsburgh Penguins’ franchise record for points in a season by a rookie (102) – 2006
Pittsburgh Penguins’ franchise record for assists in a season by a rookie (63) – 2006
NHL All-Rookie Team – June 2006
Rookie of the Month – October, 2005
NHL First Draft Pick overall – July, 2005

 

[Leafs Forever]

Well that didn't make my choice any easier

I'll likely take a bit. Got some work to finish on top of deciding.

 

[jarek]

Good selection on Crosby. He's about even with Ovechkin. A ridiculous playoff record helps bridge the regular season gap, and he's a better all around player.

 

[overpass]

Check out the recent CBC Sports/NHLPA player poll to see how highly regarded Crosby is by his peers. He was voted #1 or #2 in quite a few categories.

 

[Dreakmur]

One of hockey’s all time great centers, Norm Ullman excelled at many things, including avoiding the limelight. Had he been a media darling, he would have gained a more prominent position in hockey lore. Ullman was a consistent scorer and playmaker and one of the more tenacious forecheckers ever to play. His longevity was also something for the record books. It was often said that he did things in such an efficient yet unspectacular fashion that only true students of the game could appreciate him.

… fit in well and developed into a superior two-way center…

Ullman’s skating style symbolized his career. He wasn’t the flashiest to watch, but he always ended up where he wanted to be when he wanted to be there. Diligence and deception were his hallmark qualities, as he seemed to be everywhere without giving himself away. His tireless effort could be partially attributed to his affection for running in the summer and on non-game days. When interviewed, he was reticent and thoughtful when responding, but typically he focused on the team rather than himself. He earned the apt title “the Quiet Man”, but few who tried to keep the puck away from him would say his presence wasn’t felt.

Norm Ullman was an incredibly underrated star for 22 years in pro hockey, maybe the most underrated superstar ever. A hard worker who took immense pride in his defensive play, Norm, much like __________, quietly amassed one of the greatest careers in National Hockey League history.

…Ullman was a productive two way player on a bad Wings team…

Ullman was a wonderful little player. He always had his head up. Only on rare occasions would he peak down at the puck - a unique characteristic for most NHLers even. As a result he was almost impossible to line up for a big body check. Opposing players had to resort to illegal stick checking to slow him down. As a result Ullman often had sore or damaged hands and fingers as a result of all the slashes. He was truly a complete player, as good in his own zone as he was offensively. And while he never played for a Stanley Cup championship team, he had a reputation as a big game player - twice he led all playoff scorers in scoring.

Ullman’s game was anchored by his great skating abilities. He was dedicated to staying physically fit and kept his legs in great shape by running in the off-season; his powerful skating allowed him to be a dogged forechecker. A very focused player, he was efficient rather than flashy, though he had a knock for showing up at just the right moment to set up a teammate or knock in a goal. He was a good goal scorer and very skillful playmaker. His work in the slot was excellent and he was known for his quick release of a shot or pass.

One of his patented moves was to skate across the other team's blue line, delay, pass the puck to his wings and move down the slot for a return pass or rebound. His powerful arm strength and quick anticipation made him one of the game's toughest forecheckers and faceoff men. More often than not, Ullman would go into the corners or along the boards and emerge with the puck.

A bulldog of a forechecker, Ullman’s game was built around his determined skating. He always kept his legs in great shape, and he was always focused on succeeding. He could score a goal or make a nice pass to set one up with equal ability, and he was often in the top 10 of NHL scoring. He did all of this with little fanfare, yet he was liked by his teammates for making younger players feel welcome.

An excellent skater and stickhandler who was noted for his consistency and durability, Ullman shunned the spotlight during his 20 years in the NHL but still ranked among the game’s best players.

Ullman performed with cold competence, without a trace of flamboyance. __________ called him "The Hardest working man in hockey".

One of the quietest men the game has ever seen... Ullman developed into a great two-way player... master of the give-and-go...in his game, timing and positioning were everything. He and the puck always arrived at the same place at the same time...

A top forechecker and digger, Ullman’s playmaking skills made him a consistent goal scorer and point getter. Good at shooting quickly from the slot, Ullman was also especially adroit at making pinpoint passes to his wingers.

“Hardnosed but a sportsman, a superb passer and strong positional player.

He was a big man who could skate fast, was an excellent playmaking center, and proved a potent scorer.

A tireless skater, Ullman was relentless in pursuit.

His incredible mixture of production and durability made him an invaluable asset to his team and a respected and disruptive force to his opponents.

Ullman is widely considered one of the best stick handlers and forecheckers to have ever played the game. His trademark move involved skating to the opponent's blue line, delaying, passing to the wing and then moving down to the slot for a return pass or rebound.

Ullman employed his skating speed as an effective weapon. That fierce forechecking helped him produce a Detroit playoff record two goals in five seconds in an April 11, 1965 game with Chicago. Ullman was Chicago's personal nightmare in post-season play.

Ullman was also responsible for being a role model for the players like __________ and __________, and was recognized as a lynchpin to—thanks to the erratic ownership of Harold Ballardan—an increasingly troubled club.

Ullman has perfected the sweep-check and the poke-check, and that permits him to avoid being trapped.

He was the greatest forechecker in hockey.

His checking style reminds you of one of those old movies where the hero is trying to free his girl’s foot from the railroad tracks as the train bears down on them.

Norm Ullman !!!​

Awards and Achievements:
Hockey Hall of Fame (1982)

1st Team All-Star (1965)
2nd Team All-Star (1967)

Hart Voting – 2nd(1965), 5th(1966), 9th(1969)

11 x All Star (1955, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1974)

Scoring:
Points – 2nd(1965), 3rd(1967), 6th(1961), 6th(1966), 6th(1971), 7th(1968), 8th(1962), 10th(1957), 12th(1960), 12th(1969), 13th(1959), 15th(1958), 16th(1963), 17th(1972), 19th(1964)
Goals – 1st(1965), 3rd(1966), 4th(1968), 6th(1967), 7th(1961), 7th(1969), 8th(1962), 10th(1960), 10th(1963), 12th(1971), 13th(1958), 14th(1959), 18th(1964)
Assists – 4th(1967), 5th(1965), 7th(1966), 8th(1957), 8th(1961), 8th(1962), 9th(1959), 10th(1970), 10th(1971), 11th(1972), 13th(1974), 14th(1960), 15th(1968), 15th(1969), 17th(1963), 19th(1964), 20th(1958)

From 1960 to 1964, Ullman was 9th in Points and Assists, and 8th in Goals
From 1965 to 1969, Ullman was 5th in Points, 2nd in Goals, and 6th in Assists
From 1970 to 1974, Ullman was 15th in Points and 10th in Assists

From 1960 to 1969, Ullman was 4th in Points and Goals, and 5th in Assists
From 1965 to 1974, Ullman was 5th in Points, 7th in Goals, and 4th in Assists

From 1960 to 1974, Ullman was 5th in Points and Goals, and 2nd in Assists

Play-off Scoring:
Play-off Points – 1st(1963), 1st(1966), 2nd(1964), 6th(1965)
Play-off Goals – 1st(1966), 2nd(1964), 4th(1965), 5th(1963)
Play-off Assists – 1st(1963), 2nd(1964), 2nd(1966)

1965 – 1st in PPG and GPG

From 1963 to 1966, Ullman was 1st in play-off Points and Goals, and 2nd in play-off Assists
1st in play-off PPG and GPG, and 3rd in APG

From 1960 to 1969, Ullman ws 5th in ply-off Points, Goals, and Assists
4th in play-off PPG, 12th in GPG, and 5th in APG

1971 Coach’s Poll:
1st Best Checker

Detroit moved into the finals with 5-3 and 3-2 triumphs in the nex two matches, with veterans Norm Ullman, __________, and Andy Bathgate leading the way.

 

[jarek]

I'd say posting it once in the bio thread is enough... :/

 

[markrander87]

I sent a list to Domack and Stoneberg, but i need to do a little more research, dont pick for me please

 

[Dreakmur]

I'd say posting it once in the bio thread is enough... :/

Nope. Read it now!

 

[hungryhungryhippy]

Basically if you take a guy from before before 1980 and make a huge bio for him, he'll come out looking like the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 

[seventieslord]

Even if we find something we think runs against a players reputation I think that first hand observation is worth a lot in hockey because of how poor the stats available are.. so we have to guard against undoing canon and just replacing it with a different dogma.

Canon = bad. We should challenge it every chance we get.

Otherwise, why are we here? the best players of all-time, in order, are pretty much already decided.

So do sports fans.

I think his point was that the journalists could really be just fans fortunate enough to be published. And that's unfortunately correct. However, I think their accounts are first-hand accounts and need to be given a lot of weight here when presented.

I'll give you a little tip, jarek. Take out a monthly subsctiption with the Times and you will have unlimited access to all pay-per-view articles. The monthly subscription costs $20.00, and can be cancelled at any time. They charge weekly (it's about $5.00 per week), so if you take out a monthly subscription, make local copies of 500 PDF articles and then cancel the subscription 6 days later, you've gotten all of that material for about $5.00. It's a much better deal if you've got the time to do your research en masse.

Wow, so there's an even easier way to do it than to split a half-price times reader subscription? I'll have to check into that right away.

If you look at Delvecchio vs. Sundin offensive finishes as percentages of 2nd place within their own eras, Sundin's numbers come out shockingly close to Delvecchio's. If Sundin can't be a scoring line player, then neither can Delvecchio, IMO.

Who ever would say Sundin can't be a scoring line player in a 40-team draft? Or even a 28-team draft?

In fact, you and I even strongly considered taking him in ATD12/2010 as a 2nd line RW when he fell pretty far.

That's great Jarek, glad you're here to do that. I don't agree with that, but I don't want to get you all worked up either so we'll leave it at that.

Good selection on Crosby. He's about even with Ovechkin. A ridiculous playoff record helps bridge the regular season gap, and he's a better all around player.

No way. He's better. Ovechkin deserves higher selection by being a LW. That's all.

 

[Leafs Forever]

Basically if you take a guy from before before 1980 and make a huge bio for him, he'll come out looking like the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Sliced bread isn't all that great.

 

[seventieslord]

I'd say posting it once in the bio thread is enough... :/

Why not post them here too? A lot of research goes into these; may as well get them as much exposure as possible.

Basically if you take a guy from before before 1980 and make a huge bio for him, he'll come out looking like the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Well aren't you just debbie Downer.

-----------------------

It's time for Draft thread 3. (wow, and we're not even done 3 rounds of drafting!) Someone who will be reliable please create the thread ASAP. Once it's done, I'll close this one.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Crosby is probably the best offensive player left...

 

[hungryhungryhippy]

Peanut butter and jam beg to differ