At What Point Does the Market Start Talking About the Lack of Power Plays?

[Lightsol]

Stutzle and Bunting steamroll through people?

Stutzle prefers to grab his face and fall to the ice if anyone gets rough with him. Betting that unlike other players who are known to do this, he doesn't get the "diver" reputation...

I do know one thing - we lead the league in too many men penalties because our team all failed math 101

More like there's no penalty in the NHL easier to use as a cheap "even things up" call...

 

[All Mod Cons]

LOL, why does it benefit the league to keep Toronto Maple Leafs down? It’s laughable people think there is some kinda bias against Toronto. Get a grip.

I don't believe there is a bias against the Leafs, except from Georgie Peorgie Parros. I think he has it in for us.

 

[Martin Skoula]

You haven't noticed that they go into the scrums and fight hard of the puck?

Admittedly Stutzle seems to have trouble keeping his balance.

Stutzle is drawing tripping, hooking, and interference calls in scrums? I’ll have to watch for that next time, interesting tactic. I would have figured Stutzle draws those calls skating fast around flat footed defensemen but I guess I need to study the game more.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Ref-blaming as an emotional response during or right after a game I get. Ref-blaming as a long-term reason for a team underperforming is the protest of the weak. I'm not having it.

 

[VanW27]

Does that explain why some teams get as much as 20% more penalties drawn than taken, and others get 20% more taken than drawn?

Yes, in fact it does. Normal variance around a game management "even up" system would be about 15% for the "luckiest" team, which is where things usually end up for the team with the best net penalty numbers over the course of a full season.

 

[MilkofthePoppy]

Ref-blaming as an emotional response during or right after a game I get. Ref-blaming as a long-term reason for a team underperforming is the protest of the weak. I'm not having it.

I get this mentality in amateur sports, but not in professional sports especially when there is gambling involved. You'd have to be naive to think there isn't any manipulation going on considering all the leaked emails over the years, and all the other countless examples in other professional sports (MLB, NBA, Serie A, etc).

The NFL brands itself as "sports entertainment".

 

[MilkofthePoppy]

Most of Canada hates Toronto more than anything and they don't even try to hide it.

I don't really blame them. Toronto has always been the crown jewel of Canada and Ottawa is capital in name only.

 

[Maple Leaf]

I don't really blame them. Toronto has always been the crown jewel of Canada and Ottawa is capital in name only.

I once went to Ottawa

 

[MilkofthePoppy]

I once went to Ottawa

Me too. A lot of open space.

 

[BraveCanadian]

What do you mean, start?

People have been complaining about it for years.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Stutzle is drawing tripping, hooking, and interference calls in scrums? I’ll have to watch for that next time, interesting tactic. I would have figured Stutzle draws those calls skating fast around flat footed defensemen but I guess I need to study the game more.

The other three do. That's why I gave Stutzle a different reason.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Stutzle is drawing tripping, hooking, and interference calls in scrums? I’ll have to watch for that next time, interesting tactic. I would have figured Stutzle draws those calls skating fast around flat footed defensemen but I guess I need to study the game more.

Strutzle is a diver for sure

 

[Martin Skoula]

Strutzle is a diver for sure

No argument there but he dives on shit like this:


He gets in most situations to dive because he beats someone to the outside and feels a stick or hand on him. We were a fast team for a few years, even if we were the softest team on earth and never touched a single scrum or bulldozed through anyone, we should have been getting calls off slow defensemen.

At the end of the day reffing is what it is and it’s managements fault for not adjusting to it like Tampa or Boston, they never made PK a priority and didn’t bring in D who abuse that.

 

[William Hylander]

Players get flak for diving here (Bunting Kadri) but its the only way they get calls.

The refs don't want to seem biased, here's the major argument why we should not get calls from opposing coaches "Cmon Bro stop giving them calls just because its the leafs not fair man"

Our players need to get to the net, and dive. That's just how it is.

 

[notbias]

I'm not surprised that many of our fanbase (see posts at top of thread) don't understand why this is the case, has been the case for a while, and will continue to be the case for the foreseeable future.

it's examples like these where "spreadsheet" fans are separated by fans who watch and understand the game.

I'd be curious to hear your opinion on this since you understand the game so well.

For the time being, I'll assume game management and being "fair" is my answer until you educate me.

Refs are in the businesses of keeping penalties "fair", not calling it by the books.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I get this mentality in amateur sports, but not in professional sports especially when there is gambling involved. You'd have to be naive to think there isn't any manipulation going on considering all the leaked emails over the years, and all the other countless examples in other professional sports (MLB, NBA, Serie A, etc).
The NFL brands itself as "sports entertainment".

The NHL doesn't even pretend. Even fundamentally, before even getting into further biases and corruption, they pretty openly support "game management" over following their own rulebook. "Game management" is just another term for YOLOing it to get the most entertaining product with the most parity.

 

[pcruz]

The NHL doesn't even pretend. Even fundamentally, before even getting into further biases and corruption, they pretty openly support "game management" over following their own rulebook. "Game management" is just another term for YOLOing it to get the most entertaining product with the most parity.

This is precisely what I'm getting at here.

It's not a complaint about needing more calls.

It's me wondering when people within the hockey community just start asking about when the team will start adding greasy players who cross the line and take many penalties, have the team improve their penalty kill, and then enjoy the benefit of more power plays.

I wonder when The Athletic will just treat this open secret as a given and start talking about openly.

I wonder when broadcasters will just talk about it openly.

I listen to Overdrive every day and they never talk about bad calls. Even after especially egregiously bad calls, they're afraid to mention it. For example, the latest too many men on the ice call which was a simple line change, they glossed over it.

I wonder what the tipping point will be for them to just ask what the team is doing fundamentally wrong to not draw calls, and then answer their own question with explaining that the team also doesn't get called for many penalties. Then they'd have to explain how closely related penalties taken and power plays are in this league.

The fans know this to be the case.
The media knows its the case.
The team officials know it to be true.

Everyone is just too afraid to say it out loud for no good reason.

I'm wondering what it will take for Hayes or O'Neil or anyone else in the market to blurt it out during a rant one day:

"You know why this team isn't successful, they're not dirty enough like the big boys. Tampa, Boston. They are dirty and they cross the line, and they get rewarded for it. They have learned to game the system and that's why they are always at the top of the league."


And ridicule the NHL for its blatant disregard for its own rulebook.

 

[Strangle]

Toronto currently sits dead last in power play opportunities this year after 23 games played with 67.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Detroit has 104 power plays in 25 games played.

31 of the 32 teams in the NHL have had a 5 on 3 power play thus far. Florida can almost make the same claim as they've only spent 4 seconds up 2 men.
Unsurprisingly, Toronto is the only one without one.

Last season, Toronto ended up 18th in power play opportunities and dead last in 2 man advantages with a single instance of that.

The last regular season game in which Toronto had any 5 on 3 time, was game 71 last season where they played all of 22 seconds.
The instance before that?
April 21st 2022 where they had a grand total of 6 seconds of 2 man advantage.


Since Matthews, Marner, and Nylander became NHL players, Toronto finds itself 27th in total power plays.

Despite having the 3rd best power play conversion rate in the NHL (Toronto 24%, Tampa 24.7%, Edmonton 25.1%) over these last 8 seasons, Toronto has scored the 7th most power play goals. Not surprisingly, Tampa has recorded almost 80 more power play goals over these past 8 seasons than Toronto has.

If we were to tally the teams over the course of each of the last 8 years, and rank them by their position in terms of total power plays for, it would look like this:

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]2016-17[/TD]
[TD]2017-18[/TD]
[TD]2018-19[/TD]
[TD]2019-20[/TD]
[TD]2020-21[/TD]
[TD]2021-22[/TD]
[TD]2022-23[/TD]
[TD]2023-24[/TD]
[TD]Total[/TD]
[TD]Pts %[/TD]
[TD]Pts Rank[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Colorado[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]1906[/TD]
[TD].595[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tampa Bay[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]1836[/TD]
[TD].655[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Florida[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]1803[/TD]
[TD].595[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Nashville[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]1779[/TD]
[TD].597[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Winnipeg[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]1750[/TD]
[TD].586[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ottawa[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]1747[/TD]
[TD].467[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Calgary[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]1738[/TD]
[TD].576[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Boston[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]1735[/TD]
[TD].683[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vancouver[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]1731[/TD]
[TD].498[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pittsburgh[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]1720[/TD]
[TD].619[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Philadelphia[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]1711[/TD]
[TD].518[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Chicago[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]1688[/TD]
[TD].481[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Minnesota[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]1681[/TD]
[TD].609[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]New Jersey[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]1672[/TD]
[TD].495[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Detroit[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1667[/TD]
[TD].444[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Washington[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]1664[/TD]
[TD].628[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]LA Kings[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]1660[/TD]
[TD].542[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Carolina[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]1658[/TD]
[TD].615[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Arizona[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]1653[/TD]
[TD].454[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]New York Rangers[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]1643[/TD]
[TD].580[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Edmonton[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]1641[/TD]
[TD].579[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dallas[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]1641[/TD]
[TD].576[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Buffalo[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]1635[/TD]
[TD].455[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]St. Louis[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]1628[/TD]
[TD].593[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Montreal[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]1622[/TD]
[TD].487[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]San Jose[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]1600[/TD]
[TD].504[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Toronto[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[TD]1573[/TD]
[TD].639[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]New York Islanders[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]1522[/TD]
[TD].567[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Anaheim[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]1516[/TD]
[TD].488[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Columbus[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]1490[/TD]
[TD].526[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vegas[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]1364[/TD]
[TD].637[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Seattle[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]546[/TD]
[TD].479[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



Toronto has been the 3rd best team in the NHL over the last 8 years, but have sat in the very bottom of the table in terms of power plays consistently.

Naturally, teams that do well will be expected to draw more penalties as they tend to drive the play more than the teams who sit back and allow the opposition to impose themselves.
This is evident in teams like Colorado, Tampa Bay, Florida, Pittsburgh.
The inverse is seen in teams that have been really poor over these past 8 years: Anaheim, SJ, Montreal, Columbus, Seattle, Buffalo.

The biggest outlier in this statistic is Toronto.

I’m convinced this is due to how the players are instructed to play combined with the league’s unwritten rule of game management.

It’s not a conspiracy, it’s a misguided strategy deployed by the Leafs coaching and management.

Because the leafs play soft, they aren’t expected to commit many infractions. Because of that, the refs need to let more go by their opponents, and call more borderline calls against the leafs.

Committing less infractions causes you to have less power play opportunities in this league.

You’ll never see 7-1 power plays, it’ll usually be 3-2 or 3-3, etc. it’s irrelevant how many penalties should be called in the game And has everything to do with how they can end the game equitable in power play opportunities.

I would suggest that Keefe coach the team to play much more physically. And that’s not just open ice hits, but being hard on the forecheck and along the boards.

I was just watching game 2 from 2002 against the senators. At around 15 minutes left in the first period, the leafs dump the puck in and Domi forechecks the defender hard at the end boards, the defender keeps possession, but is off balance when Corson follows up and forechecks the defender a second time, which is where the puck goes back to Toronto, they cycle the puck around, ottawas defense is out of position due to the turnover, and Toronto scores a tap-in at the side of the net off a pass from behind the net.

This isn’t an example of penalties, but I’ve never seen this team under Keefe follow up a hard forecheck with a second hard forecheck from another forward. I think that’s playing tougher and I think doing that would indirectly lead to more power play time

 

[andora]

I’m convinced this is due to how the players are instructed to play combined with the league’s unwritten rule of game management.

It’s not a conspiracy, it’s a misguided strategy deployed by the Leafs coaching and management.

Because the leafs play soft, they aren’t expected to commit many infractions. Because of that, the refs need to let more go by their opponents, and call more borderline calls against the leafs.

Committing less infractions causes you to have less power play opportunities in this league.

You’ll never see 7-1 power plays, it’ll usually be 3-2 or 3-3, etc. it’s irrelevant how many penalties should be called in the game And has everything to do with how they can end the game equitable in power play opportunities.

I would suggest that Keefe coach the team to play much more physically. And that’s not just open ice hits, but being hard on the forecheck and along the boards.

I was just watching game 2 from 2002 against the senators. At around 15 minutes left in the first period, the leafs dump the puck in and Domi forechecks the defender hard at the end boards, the defender keeps possession, but is off balance when Corson follows up and forechecks the defender a second time, which is where the puck goes back to Toronto, they cycle the puck around, ottawas defense is out of position due to the turnover, and Toronto scores a tap-in at the side of the net off a pass from behind the net.

This isn’t an example of penalties, but I’ve never seen this team under Keefe follow up a hard forecheck with a second hard forecheck from another forward. I think that’s playing tougher and I think doing that would indirectly lead to more power play time

Need the guys

 

[Strangle]

Need the guys

There are players already on the team, you realize that I hope?

Those are the guys.

What you need now is the coach to coach the guys

 

[Maple Leaf]

I get this mentality in amateur sports, but not in professional sports especially when there is gambling involved. You'd have to be naive to think there isn't any manipulation going on considering all the leaked emails over the years, and all the other countless examples in other professional sports (MLB, NBA, Serie A, etc).

The NFL brands itself as "sports entertainment".

The game is rigged against the Leafs
The refs are biased
Look at the PP and PK and penalties drawn data over the years
Sad

 

[andora]

There are players already on the team, you realize that I hope?

Those are the guys.

What you need now is the coach to coach the guys

Oh definitely coach says do.. players should do but we dont have the guys to sustain that game

 

[Strangle]

Oh definitely coach says do.. players should do but we dont have the guys to sustain that game

You have to build them. Just saying ‘no, that player refuses to do that’ is a coaching issue.

The coach needs to do his job. A player can’t just say ‘I know coach wants me to throw a hit on the forecheck, and not just pull up and poke my stick out, but I’m just not going to do that’

That’s a ridiculous idea. The problem might be that the coach thinks this way too, and he doesn’t even even instruct them to it because he thinks ‘well, they aren’t going to do it anyway so I won’t ask them to’

That’s not a leader or a manager of any group or team that’s worthy of that position

 

[Stephen]

If you don't go to high danger areas at speeds very often the other team doesn't have to defend you by making those emergency tripping, interference desperation plays which cuts down on calls the refs have to make. How often does Matthews drive to the net and force a guy to trip him? Chances are he's made a drop pass to Mitch. How often does Nylander hold the puck and curl around or circle the perimeter for another look instead of driving into a seam?

The less you scrum after a whistle, the less likely it is that the opposition will be called for a roughing play.

If you're barely in the game you're not likely to put teams in a position where they have to do anything to you.

 

[andora]

You have to build them. Just saying ‘no, that player refuses to do that’ is a coaching issue.

The coach needs to do his job. A player can’t just say ‘I know coach wants me to throw a hit on the forecheck, and not just pull up and poke my stick out, but I’m just not going to do that’

That’s a ridiculous idea. The problem might be that the coach thinks this way too, and he doesn’t even even instruct them to it because he thinks ‘well, they aren’t going to do it anyway so I won’t ask them to’

That’s not a leader or a manager of any group or team that’s worthy of that position

I agree with you

I also dont think we have the personnel to effectively do it