CaptTennille
President of the Blair Betts Fan Club
I was wondering why it was so hot out today. Turns out it's because Bread and AK27 where flying over NYC bringing the HEAT
Player Discussion Artemi Panarin
- Thread starter Fugazy
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Panarin is officially a finalist for the Hart Trophy.
KirkAlbuquerque
#WeNeverGetAGoodCoach
Amazing Kreiderman
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MVP-Kinnon.
Panarin has been great and I would love to see him win it, but MacKinnon deserves it. 43 more points than the 2nd highest scorer on his team, Rantanen and Landeskog missed a combined 44 games due to injuries. MacKinnon had to do it basically on his own
Irishguy42
Mr. Preachy
KirkAlbuquerque
#WeNeverGetAGoodCoach
f*** MacKinnon. The scoring difference is because all of those players were getting injured at various times throughout the year, its not like he was playing on his own all season. Panarin had a better season. Full stop.
Irishguy42
Mr. Preachy
Actually, Rantanen and Landeskog were roughly out for the same length and at the same time at the beginning of the season. Rantanen did miss some time on his own at the end before the season stoppage. But still, a very sizable chunk is just MacKinnon by himself.
EDIT: Here's the TOI comparison (also shows most common linemates, all of this is from the lovely HockeyViz by Micah)
EDIT: Here's the TOI comparison (also shows most common linemates, all of this is from the lovely HockeyViz by Micah)
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While this is true-ish, it’s an overstated narrative. They weren’t all injured at the same time (yes there was overlap). He either had Makar or Landeskog or Rantanen at pretty much all times, sometimes two of them, sometimes all of them. His overall team is much stronger though, even with the injuries; Burakovsky started the season hot on the second line away from Mack. Nichuschkin earned his way up the lineup before he got to play with Mack. Donskoi, Kadri, Calvert... there’s good depth there. It’s not like those guys are scrubs compared to Strome and Fast and Panarin wasn’t “doing it by himself” as well. The Avs have nice depth everywhere with Grubauer’s ability in the playoffs as really their only question mark. It’s a good roster.
Zibanejad also missed time but the Rangers roster when Zbad is out isn’t near as pretty. Panarin plays on a line with Strome and Fast and then it’s Kreider, Buchnevich... Chytil, Lemieux, Kakko, Howden, McKegg, Smith... Panarin also destroyed the league in EV scoring, despite the fact that he had the most pedestrian linemates at EV.
I doubt the voters really look that far in depth, but I believe MacKinnon and Panarin both have stronger cases than Draisaitl and that in a detailed view, Panarin has the strongest.
Amazing Kreiderman
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It depends on your definition of an MVP.
Panarin had a 40-goal scorer on his team, 2 others who hit 50 points.
MacKinnon had Makar with 50 points as his 2nd highest on the team, Burakovsky 3rd with 45.
There's a case to be made that Panarin had more help on his team than MacKinnon this season. I personally feel MacKinnon was more valuable to the Avs than Panarin was to the Rangers. But they both deserve it.
It makes a good debate.
Strome and Fast as your most common linemates, especially when you do most of your damage at ES, make it pretty difficult to point to Mackinnon’s linemates as a disadvantage. He still played with Landeskog for 54 games and Rantanen for 42, and Rantanen was point per game as well.
42 out of 69 games playing with either of those two is more “help” on his line than Strome/Fast.
On the flip side, Mika doing what he did from a separate line certainly helped the team more than the Avs second line. So that becomes kind of like that McDavid cancels Draisaitl thing, so that certainly helps Mack’s case.
Interestingly, when you take out guys who only played a handful of games, Draisaitl and McDavid were #1/2 in points per game. Panarin was #3. Mika was #7. MacKinnon was #5, Rantanen was #24. I guess in that light, MacKinnon gets the upperhand.
I like Mack and the Avs a lot. I like Draisaitl as well. I don’t really care who wins the Hart or Lindsay this year. It does feel like Panarin just did the most with the least, as far as linemates go and scoring at 5v5, where he led everyone.
Amazing Kreiderman
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The thing is: If you use the McDavid-argument against Draisaitl, a case can be made that Zibanejad works against Panarin in terms of the MVP conversation.
I don't put much weight into points being even strength or powerplay. We complain all the time how the powerplay is important, and having a good powerplay helps a team. If MacKinnon scored more on the powerplay, is that a bad thing? If it is, it's not nearly as big of an impact as having a 40-goal scorer on your team as opposed to your second best forward only having 45 points
It is a great debate. And between these 2, there's no wrong answer. Both deserve it. I would personally give the edge to MacKinnon for what his team faced. 89 games missed by their top-7 players in points, has a huge impact on the team.
Amazing Kreiderman
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SA16
Sixstring
I am not impressed by a player having many more points than everyone else on his team. That is exactly what I would expect from a top level player when the next two best players on his team miss times and then the coach rotates players on/off his line. This happening with MacKinnon isn't a surprise to me and I would expect nearly the exact same thing to happen in a similar situaton for other players at his level. I mean this is the whole point of why you don't need to pair guys like Panarin and Zibanejad. Panarin can produce with far worse linemates so if Zibanejad missed more games a very similar thing could have happened. The difference is Panarin was consistently with Strome to inflate his totals. If Panarin sometimes played with Strome, sometimes with Chytil, sometimes with Howden then there would be other player near his point total. That's what happened with MacKinnon. When guys were out sometimes he played with Donskoi, sometimes Nichushkin, sometimes Burakovsky, sometimes even Nieto. Since it wasn't consistent there was nobody else who could leech off him.
In any case I would simply vote for who I thought the best player was that season for MVP and not worry about all the nonsense context of who was "more valuable." Maybe it should be Crosby then his merchandise sells the most seems like he's bringing the most value.
In any case I would simply vote for who I thought the best player was that season for MVP and not worry about all the nonsense context of who was "more valuable." Maybe it should be Crosby then his merchandise sells the most seems like he's bringing the most value.
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On his interview he gave big props to Strome and Fast. I know that's par for the course but it seems like he is a great team guy. Always high energy high positivity
Not about the points so much, but rather whose team would not finish anywhere near to where they did without said player?
SA16
Sixstring
All of them. Why is turning a 10th place team into a 7th place team more impressive than a 13th place team into a 10th place team? Because of an arbitrary playoff cutline? Why should a player be rewarded with an award because his GM gave him better teammates?
This is not about linemates. If you subtracted the player from the roster, which team is significantly worse?
Amazing Kreiderman
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Avs without MacKinnon are worse off than the Rangers without Panarin. Rangers had more scoring depth. They actually had 2 lines for opponents to worry about.
Amazing Kreiderman
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Should the MVP go to the best player or to the player who was most valuable to their team?
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We're in the dumpster without Panarin. We were scoring and winning without Zibanejad.
I think Mac is going to win it because of politics. Mac is an explosive talent and deserves to get recognition but I just think Panarin was in another dimension this year.
