Around the NHL

[AtlantaWhaler]

Atlanta for a 3rd time?

I get the size of both cities, but I do not think either are the best hockey markets.

Give me a break. First time was 45 years ago. City has tripled in size since.

As for the 2nd, aside from owners who literally said they didn't want the team when they bought it, The Thrashers made the playoffs once in their 15-year history with never winning a single game. I'd think there would be a little more understanding after this disaster of a Preds season which will likely stretch several as long as Trotz/Bruno are around.

 

[hockey diva]

If they (Atlanta) put the team in the burbs, they might do better. Though, I do think Canada should get another team before Atlanta or Houston. Maybe not Hamilton but QC or one out west.

 

[Armourboy]

If they (Atlanta) put the team in the burbs, they might do better. Though, I do think Canada should get another team before Atlanta or Houston. Maybe not Hamilton but QC or one out west.

Toronto will never let Hamilton happen, there is a reason you've never heard Betteman mention it ever.

Quebec City has the same issue they have always had, small market and super light on corporate dollars. They won't get a team unless it's an Atlanta/Winnipeg situation.

Most of the rest of Canada has the exact same issue Quebec City has.

Atlanta and Houston will be fine. I don't think most people understand how much Atlanta's issue was it's owner. I lived there then, they promoted so little you wouldn't even know a team existed.

Houston will work but the owner is going to need to put the work in. It's just too big a market for the NHL not to take a crack at it.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

If they (Atlanta) put the team in the burbs, they might do better. Though, I do think Canada should get another team before Atlanta or Houston. Maybe not Hamilton but QC or one out west.

Despite hockey crazy fans, there aren’t enough people. We’re seeing it in Peg now. One of the best teams in the league and they’re averaging something like 13k. The entire country has the same population as California.

 

[NoNecksCurse]

Give me a break. First time was 45 years ago. City has tripled in size since.

As for the 2nd, aside from owners who literally said they didn't want the team when they bought it, The Thrashers made the playoffs once in their 15-year history with never winning a single game. I'd think there would be a little more understanding after this disaster of a Preds season which will likely stretch several as long as Trotz/Bruno are around.

I think Atlanta is a better choice than Houston. I’m not trying to be a Debbie downer. I just don’t really get it.

The product is already watered down as is. I don’t really think we need 34 teams and then 36 NHL teams. There isn’t enough talent.

 

[Kat Predator]

Despite hockey crazy fans, there aren’t enough people. We’re seeing it in Peg now. One of the best teams in the league and they’re averaging something like 13k. The entire country has the same population as California.

The greater Toronto area might be able to support a second team in theory, but the Maple Leafs aren't going to allow any competition in southern Ontario. Quebec City has an urban population roughly that of Omaha, Nebraska.

Houston and Atlanta are just obvious markets. The only 2 cities in the US in the top 10 urban sizes without NHL teams. Phoenix is 11th and Bettman all but promised the NHL would try again there. Baltimore is another large untapped market, but the Capitals might not go for that.

The odd thing about Houston and Atlanta is that the NHL has also found greater stability by giving franchises to somewhat smaller markets where there is less competition for the sports entertainment dollars. That strategy would put cities the size of Oklahoma City or Quebec back in the hunt.

 

[Predation]

They are building an Arena surrounded by an entertainment district in Alpharetta, a suburb of Atlanta, and they are calling it The Gathering. It will be similar to the Battery where the Braves play, which has been very successful. They would love to lure an NHL team there. An entertainment district that surrounds a stadium, like broadway in Nashville, is the recipe for success and is probably the biggest reason the NHL is considering Atlanta again. Alpharetta is also a very rich area with a large corporate presence, and there are a lot of hockey fans in that area. There are a lot of northern transplants here too, so it’s not like hockey is foreign to the locals.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

The odd thing about Houston and Atlanta is that the NHL has also found greater stability by giving franchises to somewhat smaller markets where there is less competition for the sports entertainment dollars. That strategy would put cities the size of Oklahoma City or Quebec back in the hunt.

I disagree. In the past, we've seen cities like QC and Hartford leave for larger, growing cities mainly based on fan support. Not a knock on their love for hockey, but when you're only drawing attendance from less than a million people, every excuse (poor play, bad ownership, economy, arena location, etc...) gets multiplied. We're seeing it now with Buffalo and Peg. Heck, one of the richest ownership groups in the world was begging for corporate help a year ago because there wasn't enough going to the Jets. Relying on the same fans to drive ticket sales year after year isn't sustainable, especially for a gate-driven revenue league.

 

[Olderfan]

The game on ice is diluted. There are many(Many!) players who are not NHL worthy earning millions of dollars. The NHL is getting by on fees paid by TV(Big Markets drive it) and expansion fees paid by billionaires. There are multiple teams in trouble attendance wise and need attention from the league(see Peg). The Preds are dangerously close to that brink. The Corporate Preds are getting along by controlling the Arena with many money making events. On a stand alone basis, are the Preds making money? Who knows?
The last thing the NHL needs are about 50 more minor leaguers roaming up and down the ice. The Preds are putting much emphasis on a WNBA or NBA team. Look who is the primary spokesperson. The Preds COO? A replacement franchise for the arena?

 

[Viqsi]

My counterpoint to anyone claiming excessive talent dilution continues to be how Vegas's first year was supposed to be terrible because they had absolutely nobody.

 

[Kat Predator]

I disagree. In the past, we've seen cities like QC and Hartford leave for larger, growing cities mainly based on fan support. Not a knock on their love for hockey, but when you're only drawing attendance from less than a million people, every excuse (poor play, bad ownership, economy, arena location, etc...) gets multiplied. We're seeing it now with Buffalo and Peg. Heck, one of the richest ownership groups in the world was begging for corporate help a year ago because there wasn't enough going to the Jets. Relying on the same fans to drive ticket sales year after year isn't sustainable, especially for a gate-driven revenue league.

I was speaking more to the historical. Winnipeg, Raleigh, Nashville, San Jose, Ottawa, and Columbus were not large markets. Buffalo is not a large market. Salt Lake is not a large market. These teams have their issues obviously. Still, just having a large potential market isn't enough. Atlanta, Phoenix, Denver, Hartford (which is a suburb of NYC), Minneapolis, Kansas City, Oakland, Cleveland prove that point.

Things have evolved, obviously. Professional sports is becoming more and more driven by corporate sponsor dollars and less and less by middle class families who go to games here and there. So you may be right about the future. If an urban area can't conjure up the corporate sponsor support, it's doomed.

 

[Armourboy]

The game on ice is diluted. There are many(Many!) players who are not NHL worthy earning millions of dollars. The NHL is getting by on fees paid by TV(Big Markets drive it) and expansion fees paid by billionaires. There are multiple teams in trouble attendance wise and need attention from the league(see Peg). The Preds are dangerously close to that brink. The Corporate Preds are getting along by controlling the Arena with many money making events. On a stand alone basis, are the Preds making money? Who knows?
The last thing the NHL needs are about 50 more minor leaguers roaming up and down the ice. The Preds are putting much emphasis on a WNBA or NBA team. Look who is the primary spokesperson. The Preds COO? A replacement franchise for the arena?

Preds are making a killing, there is a reason you don't hear a thing about their financials. If they weren't you would see a lot of turnover in the ownership group.

WNBA probably won't be in Nashville 5 years after it starts. It still hasn't made a dime and is only afloat because of money from the NBA. If the NBA slips and needs to cut the WNBA off that league is screwed.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Quebec City's success would be highly contingent on a successful offering plus no major economic downfall for Canada and the Canadian dollar in general. Given how things are going in Winnipeg (and just recently quasi-averted in Ottawa), I don't think anybody needs to think about putting another team in Canada right now. The only truly viable place in Canada would be in the Greater Toronto Area, but the Leafs don't want that of course.

So I guess, sure, give it a go with some of the changes to the dynamic in Atlanta. I haven't lived in Houston for 20 years now, it was definitely a total no-go back then, but maybe the sheer numbers could let if fly now, again *IF* they had all the stars aligned properly (unlike the Phoenix situation for example). I don't think these markets are GUARANTEED failures. And I do think the NHL owners want badly enough to pocket the profits that they'll go ahead and take their best shot anyway, so...

As much as the talent and roster depth is woefully watered down, I think we have to just be ready to accept that this WILL HAPPEN. It's always kind of a fun "Armchair GM" event anyway, which is as much entertainment for some of us here as the actual games themselves are anymore.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

The game on ice is diluted. There are many(Many!) players who are not NHL worthy earning millions of dollars. The NHL is getting by on fees paid by TV(Big Markets drive it) and expansion fees paid by billionaires. There are multiple teams in trouble attendance wise and need attention from the league(see Peg). The Preds are dangerously close to that brink. The Corporate Preds are getting along by controlling the Arena with many money making events. On a stand alone basis, are the Preds making money? Who knows?
The last thing the NHL needs are about 50 more minor leaguers roaming up and down the ice. The Preds are putting much emphasis on a WNBA or NBA team. Look who is the primary spokesperson. The Preds COO? A replacement franchise for the arena?

Diluted compared to when? What era? The Preds are an abysmally bad team and there are perhaps...4...maybe 5-6 players that are perhaps not legitimate NHL players? That's hardly different than any period of hockey I can recall when it comes to poor teams. How many minor leaguers is Florida regularly icing? Dallas? Vegas?

The pool of potential quality hockey players, and their relative level of being ready to play in the NHL, has never been higher than it is currently. I feel the quality of hockey being played, overall, is significantly better than the era I grew up watching (1987). The entertainment value can be hit and miss, it's definitely far better than the dead puck era, but I also think it has a lot to do with how far the game has evolved in terms of systems and structure rather than the average talent level of the player.

 

[Armourboy]

Quebec City's success would be highly contingent on a successful offering plus no major economic downfall for Canada and the Canadian dollar in general. Given how things are going in Winnipeg (and just recently quasi-averted in Ottawa), I don't think anybody needs to think about putting another team in Canada right now. The only truly viable place in Canada would be in the Greater Toronto Area, but the Leafs don't want that of course.

So I guess, sure, give it a go with some of the changes to the dynamic in Atlanta. I haven't lived in Houston for 20 years now, it was definitely a total no-go back then, but maybe the sheer numbers could let if fly now, again *IF* they had all the stars aligned properly (unlike the Phoenix situation for example). I don't think these markets are GUARANTEED failures. And I do think the NHL owners want badly enough to pocket the profits that they'll go ahead and take their best shot anyway, so...

As much as the talent and roster depth is woefully watered down, I think we have to just be ready to accept that this WILL HAPPEN. It's always kind of a fun "Armchair GM" event anyway, which is as much entertainment for some of us here as the actual games themselves are anymore.

Big difference from today compared to the past is that whoever buys into these has to have some very deep pockets. Gone are the days of a guy like Liarplod barely having the money to keep things going. You've either gotta have it or they won't even talk to you anymore.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Diluted compared to when? What era? The Preds are an abysmally bad team and there are perhaps...4...maybe 5-6 players that are perhaps not legitimate NHL players? That's hardly different than any period of hockey I can recall when it comes to poor teams. How many minor leaguers is Florida regularly icing? Dallas? Vegas?

The pool of potential quality hockey players, and their relative level of being ready to play in the NHL, has never been higher than it is currently. I feel the quality of hockey being played, overall, is significantly better than the era I grew up watching (1987). The entertainment value can be hit and miss, it's definitely far better than the dead puck era, but I also think it has a lot to do with how far the game has evolved in terms of systems and structure rather than the average talent level of the player.

I don't know... I find junior hockey is watered down too. And the KHL and other European leagues aren't as strong as they used to be. Even the AHL isn't as good as it used to be? I think there is a lot that is masked here, because there are just soooo many sort of tweener caliber 4th liners to go around in the NHL? Hockey is not booming, it's getting too expensive for a lot of people, and while in a relative sense the players who do get to the top level have been trained so well and have such great equipment and everything that you can't really compare directly player-to-player across eras; yet I think hockey in general is kind of "maxed out" for true top talent production.

But it doesn't REALLY matter, because you could ice 40 NHL teams under a Salary Cap, and it would still be fun, because they'd all still be competing on a level playing field amongst eachother with the best of the best... whether that's the best 1,000 hockey players or 1,500 or even 2,000 doesn't really matter? It's still going to be entertaining. All the leagues a notch below the NHL will just be a little worse again, like I think they are now.

One league that is going to get a big bump is the NCAA now that they are pulling in so many good graduating CHL players. The level of hockey in the NCAA is going to be higher than ever before, so I think if young players show well in that league, that is really going to be saying more than it ever has before.