OT: Around the NHL: Final stretch to the playoffs

Dude, MOST ALL-TIME GOALS is a significant record. "Most consecutive point-per-game seasons" is not. Again, reading this thread makes me embarrassed to be a Pens fan. Why all the sour grapes? We have 3 Cups to celebrate and Crosby is making a case for the Mt. Rushmore of hockey to expand to 5 spots. Can't we tip our hats at a player passing Wayne frigging Gretzky for most all time goals????
The tone policing on this board to make sure we give athletes who have nothing to do with our team kudos lest other loser fans on this website think less of us is the most annoying thing about it. Yea it’s cool the record is broken, k? Now explain why the old Russian dude from a team that used PEDs and doesn’t watch his nutrition at all exited his peak during the Olympics at 25 years old.
 
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People complain mods squash conversation being overly restrictive. And then turn around and complain when conversation happens. Nothing yet has crossed forum rules. It can continue.
 
I’d be happier for Ovechkin if he didn’t play for Washington. Growing up in NoVa I got a first hand account of how clueless the fan base is. Ever go to a Super Bowl party and immediately discover who, in the crowd, diesnt normally watch football? That’s most Washington fans with hockey. At least Philly fans generally understand the sports they enjoy booing.

The Crosby v Ovechkin debate was settled years ago. The truth is Ovechkin put all of his energy into scoring goals. There’s a lot more to the sport than scoring but for him it was the only thing he ever focused on. Anyone claiming that makes him better than Sid isn’t even worth debating because they don’t understand what they’re talking about.
 
After the 2010 Olympics Ovechkin had 20 points in 18 games. Prior to them he had 89 in 54, a 134 point pace - by far the best of his career. His next season he barely outscored 40 year old Teemu Selanne being 7th in scoring and the season after that he wasn't even a point per game despite being a 27 year old generational forward.

Moreover, he has never looked the same physically at all since his age 25 season despite being a generational player. That's just weird, man. There's not a single example in hockey you can point to that had that career arc. It's cool that he found a way to score goals with such consistency, but it's definitely weird that he lost his explosiveness just like that. That's like if McDavid lost a step 3 years ago.
His falloff wasn't as crazy as the stats make it appear to be. He still put up 53 assists, which was in line with what he had done in previous seasons. The main difference was that his shooting percentage dropped from 13.6% to 8.7%, which is far below his career average. What would people attribute his return to form (goalscoring wise) from 2013 onward? Was he back on the sauce? McDavid went from scoring 153 points 2 seasons ago to now being on pace for only 117 points. Does that mean he was doping as well?

There is no evidence of Nagel being more than a chiropractor for the team. Even if Ovechkin were using PEDs, it would be naive to think Crosby or any other player was simply a hard worker who took legal supplements. In professional sports, there is never going to be complete transparency about substance abuse.
 
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His falloff wasn't as crazy as the stats make it appear to be. He still put up 53 assists, which was in line with what he had done in previous seasons. The main difference was that his shooting percentage dropped from 13.6% to 8.7%. What would people attribute his return to form (goalscoring wise) from 2013 onward? Was he back on the sauce? McDavid went from scoring 153 points 2 seasons ago to now being on pace for only 117 points. Does that mean he was doping as well?

There is no evidence of Nagel being more than a chiropractor for the team. Even if Ovechkin were using PEDs, it would be naive to think Crosby or any other player was simply a hard worker who took legal supplements. In professional sports, there is never going to be complete transparency about substance abuse.
There is no evidence that the NHL investigated whether there was evidence, either. It was all entirely swept under the rug.

His falloff was even crazier than the stats make it appear to be, he looked like half the player he was despite being 25, not 35. He lost an entire gear in his physical peak. Literally every Penguins fan knows what 2008-2010 Ovechkin was like in intimate detail, his post 2011 version was not remotely the same player in terms of explosiveness. He went from the most lethal offensive weapon in the league to not even top 5, then down to not even top 10 in 24 months. McDavid just turned 28, Ovechkin slowed down suddenly at 25.
 
There is no evidence that the NHL investigated whether there was evidence, either. It was all entirely swept under the rug.

His falloff was even crazier than the stats make it appear to be, he looked like half the player he was despite being 25, not 35. He lost an entire gear in his physical peak. Literally every Penguins fan knows what 2008-2010 Ovechkin was like in intimate detail, his post 2011 version was not remotely the same player in terms of explosiveness. He went from the most lethal offensive weapon in the league to not even top 5, then down to not even top 10 in 24 months. McDavid just turned 28, Ovechkin slowed down suddenly at 25.
There's no question he wasn't the same player that he was 2 seasons later, but that doesn't automatically indicate that it was because of supposed doping allegations. It completely ignores team context and natural regression. Crosby, while still a great player, wasn't the same player he was in 2014 as he was in 2011. Crosby had known injuries that kept him out for extended periods. Ovechkin's injuries were not as well-known and he played through many of them, including in 2011 when he is suspected of playing through a wrist injury. In 2012, Dale Hunter came along and played Ovechkin in a checking role with limited offensive opportunity in a defensive trap-based system. This all contributed to the perception of his great decline, which was true, but exaggerated.

Just look at someone like Matthews this season. He is pacing for 40 goals, far below what he did just last season. These things happen; players' declines are inevitable. For some, it happens sooner rather than later.
 
There's no question he wasn't the same player that he was 2 seasons later, but that doesn't automatically indicate that it was because of supposed doping allegations. It completely ignores team context and natural regression. Crosby, while still a great player, wasn't the same player he was in 2014 as he was in 2011. Crosby had known injuries that kept him out for extended periods. Ovechkin's injuries were not as well-known and he played through many of them, including in 2011 when he is suspected of playing through a wrist injury. In 2012, Dale Hunter came along and played Ovechkin in a checking role with limited offensive opportunity in a defensive trap-based system. This all contributed to the perception of his great decline, which was true, but exaggerated.

Just look at someone like Matthews this season. He is pacing for 40 goals, far below what he did just last season. These things happen; players' declines are inevitable. For some, it happens sooner rather than later.
Crosby in 2014 was still leading the league in scoring by 17 points and had injured his wrist in March (which never was repaired until 2 years ago) and played most of the season after December with Brian Gibbons on his wing. He still looked like Crosby. Matthews is not the same caliber of player as 2010 Ovechkin was and he's chronically nagged by wrist problems. Ovechkin in 2010 had almost McDavid speed, with his shot, and was the most physical player in the NHL. Everybody could tell, basically when the Olympics were done until this very day, that whoever Ovechkin was before Vancouver 2010 in terms of the explosive one man highlight reel was gone. I'm sure some injuries and bad coaching played parts but a wrist injury in 2011 can't explain why his game changed so radically so suddenly at the height of his powers, as he was only 26. McDavid might be beginning to slow down, but he's 28 and still looks like himself, even if it's a little less dominant on a shift by shift basis. Ovechkin turned into winger Stamkos.
 
Crosby in 2014 was still leading the league in scoring by 17 points and had injured his wrist in March (which never was repaired until 2 years ago) and played most of the season after December with Brian Gibbons on his wing. He still looked like Crosby. Matthews is not the same caliber of player as 2010 Ovechkin was and he's chronically nagged by wrist problems. Ovechkin in 2010 had almost McDavid speed, with his shot, and was the most physical player in the NHL. Everybody could tell, basically when the Olympics were done until this very day, that whoever Ovechkin was before Vancouver 2010 in terms of the explosive one man highlight reel was gone. I'm sure some injuries and bad coaching played parts but a wrist injury in 2011 can't explain why his game changed so radically so suddenly at the height of his powers, as he was only 26. McDavid might be beginning to slow down, but he's 28 and still looks like himself, even if it's a little less dominant on a shift by shift basis. Ovechkin turned into winger Stamkos.
Ovechkin in the 2010 playoffs and Ovechkin pre-Olympics were the same player. I think you are just trying to read into this alleged scandal as the reason for his drop in production. He was still just as explosive in the playoffs. His drop post-Olympic break could easily be explained as him not being as invested as he was following his disappointing exit, compounded by regression from an unsustainable pace. It was really in 2011 where he declined. Like I said, many things can be attributed to his decline, it's silly to just assume he was doping when other players around his age have had similar dips in production. Crosby also wasn't the same player in 2014. Sure, he led the league in scoring, but he wasn't nearly as dominant as he was in 2011. His dominance over 2nd was largely due to other contenders being hurt and missing games but I digress. I also brought up Matthews as an example of a player who declined around Ovechkin's age which you previously said was "unheard of". Whether or not they're the same caliber of player, they are both superstar players who had sudden and drastic drops in production.
 
How is it petty? It’s never been more relevant. When has anybody been able to explain his falloff in the middle of his prime?
Remember Jagr in Washington? It happens.

Crosby being freakishly good every single season of his career is not the norm - hence his PPG record.
 
Remember Jagr in Washington? It happens.

Crosby being freakishly good every single season of his career is not the norm - hence his PPG record.
Jagr was a primadona who was changing teams at 29 years old. Ovechkin was 25.
 
Jagr was a primadona who was changing teams at 29 years old. Ovechkin was 25.
Either way, honestly, even if he did juice I don't really care. But I'm one of those who thinks Bonds should be in the hall.

If Ovechkin really is on some sort of PEDs, chances are every player in the NHL is aware of them and there's probably lots of guys using them.

But I don't think there's all that much proof that he's on them now and chances are we'll never know either way.
 
Ovi is great

He's probably not done it with Wheaties
But
Whatever. It's a crazy stat to break cause Gretz played when goalies were literally standing all the time. To have done it while playing against actual parody is crazy.

I think it's more impressive to do the PPG that Sid has done... And it bears out. Sid has had far more success with his team.
 
Tbf to OV he did have Dale Hunter as HC for a season who’s system was akin to Jacques Lemaire and stifled his game
 
I don't really give a shit if a pro athlete takes PEDs tbh. They're adults, they know the risks, they have doctors/trainers informing them of everything. But like in bodybuilding, when guys are pretty obviously on gear, you just gotta roll your eyes at the "No way dude, natty! Promise!" bullshit. :laugh:
 
Wow I totally forgot about that. Lmao.


Even there, the NHL was basically called out for lying about doing any investigation at all.
Lol I vaguely remember that. It was hilarious that Daly was all yeah we did an investigation and we are good with that.

After getting called out for the lack of an investigation haha.
 
He was certainly one of the best but the best passer is clearly Gretzky, there's just no argument against him. He has more assists then anyone else has points, including a 163 assist season. That was over 2 assists per game. Oates was great but Gretzky stands alone there.

Gretz played with some amazing players who were able to capitalize on his amazing passing. Hence the astronomical assist figures.
Oates was every bit Wayne's equal in this regard in terms of seeing the ice.
 
I can both think that there's a heavy chance that OV took/takes roids and be glad for him for breaking the goal record. It's quite the feat.

Just wish our guys doped and got away with it.

Guess what I compare the Ovi thing to is Tom Brady with Spygate.

Is/was Brady an amazing QB? For sure. But the cheating scandals make people who believe details and context are important, suspicious.

Similar with Barry Bonds for those who follow baseball. He was a freak without the PEDs. Add those and you have a superhuman.

Is/was Ovi an amazing player and likely a freak athlete WITHOUT banned supplements? Sure- no argument.
But it makes you wonder when you dig into his career.
 

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