Around the NHL 2024 25

[kanadalainen]

I'd rather play STL. Can't recall the numbers, but I believe we've been far better against the Central than the Pacific.

Yes, I came to the same conclusion. Calgary and LAK have been annoying wrt to matchups.

 

[sipowicz]

See that it's 4th line Laine in Montreal, aside from the PP the guy is useless!

 

[Buffdog]

I think you underestimate how long it takes players to be good all around NHLers. The only young players playing well this year are Bedard (pretty bad defensively still) and Vlasic. They hope Nazar can make a big jump next year but for as good as his hands and speed are there is a lot to be desired from an all around game. Then everyone else is 3 or 4 years away just to be in the NHL being good in the NHL is another story. Perfetti is 22 and is still working on consistency.

Their oldest good prospects are 20? Let's see how it goes when they get to be 23 or 24. By the time the Hawks are good again most of thatcurrent roster isn't even there

There's a real issue with young players like Bedard coming out of junior to play on terrible teams

If a team knows that they're not in it to win, then the only incentive these kids have is to try to put up numbers. They'll often do it by reverting to their bad habits from junior. The difference is that in the NHL, playing that way will cost you games - which starts a vicious circle

We saw it in Edmonton for years with their first "lottery core" of guys like Hall, Eeberle, RNH, etc... they were coach killers, and lots of the vets who were brought in to try to model the right pro habits have spoken up about how the kids were arrogant and unreachable

That's one of the reasons why I hate complete tank jobs. People think that the most important part of it is being bad enough to dig yourself deep enough into a hole that you can secure generational talent... but I'd argue that it's even more important to have a plan to get yourself out of that hole once you do

 

[Bender Duster]

See that it's 4th line Laine in Montreal, aside from the PP the guy is useless!

If you're ever feeling like a good laugh, go check out the Laine thread on the Habs board.

His same 4 or 5 Finnish fanboys are still blaming it all on linemates, coaching and a sore knee.

The one delusional guy that used to post here still claims he has a better shot than Ovi and a similar skill set to Mario. He's just being held back by Coach Marty and having to play with Newhook.

 

[Daximus]

I think you underestimate how long it takes players to be good all around NHLers. The only young players playing well this year are Bedard (pretty bad defensively still) and Vlasic. They hope Nazar can make a big jump next year but for as good as his hands and speed are there is a lot to be desired from an all around game. Then everyone else is 3 or 4 years away just to be in the NHL being good in the NHL is another story. Perfetti is 22 and is still working on consistency.

Their oldest good prospects are 20? Let's see how it goes when they get to be 23 or 24. By the time the Hawks are good again most of thatcurrent roster isn't even there

That's why they need to use the massive amount of cap space and draft capital they have to sign free agents and make trades for vets that can supplement their core. Chicago being a big market O6 team should not have any issues attracting talent. Chicago is a far cry from Edmonton, who despite having not 1 but 2 of the best players in the league still can't attract FA's and is largely on no trade lists.

 

[Gm0ney]

It's always tougher for small and middle market teams to do a scorched earth. Not only do you need to draft well but also build a culture. You generally aren't going to be a major player on the free agent market no matter how much potential your young guys have. It's just tougher.

Teams like NYR, Toronto, Montreal, Chicago, LA, Boston can attract FA's, they can keep their drafted players easier, they can attract NCAA FA's. They have all the tools at their disposal to go scorched earth and come out the other side quickly.

The Rangers were probably the most successful with the quick bottom out. Although their two high picks have been pretty disappointing and they've come apart at the seams this year.

But Chicago has been bad for years. Detroit's in the same boat - 7 or 8 years in the wilderness.

Toronto had 9 consecutive drafts between 2008 and 2016 where they picked (or would've picked) in the Top 10. Five (5!) of those were Top 5 picks! Luke Schenn, Seguin, Rielly, Marner and Matthews. They traded away the 2OA Seguin pick (and 9OA pick Hamilton) to Boston for Kessel, trying to quick fix the team.

So I don't know if being a destination has helped all that much.

 

[Daximus]

The Rangers were probably the most successful with the quick bottom out. Although their two high picks have been pretty disappointing and they've come apart at the seams this year.

But Chicago has been bad for years. Detroit's in the same boat - 7 or 8 years in the wilderness.

Toronto had 9 consecutive drafts between 2008 and 2016 where they picked (or would've picked) in the Top 10. Five (5!) of those were Top 5 picks! Luke Schenn, Seguin, Rielly, Marner and Matthews. They traded away the 2OA Seguin pick (and 9OA pick Hamilton) to Boston for Kessel, trying to quick fix the team.

So I don't know if being a destination has helped all that much.

I think wallowing in the middle is different than going full scorched earth. Toronto, NY, Chicago all wallowed in the middle for a number of years. When you start actively tanking you are going full scorched earth. Trading away vets, acquiring draft picks, actively icing bad rosters and going with a full on youth movement is the hallmarks of a scorched earth rebuild.

 

[TS Quint]

That's why they need to use the massive amount of cap space and draft capital they have to sign free agents and make trades for vets that can supplement their core. Chicago being a big market O6 team should not have any issues attracting talent. Chicago is a far cry from Edmonton, who despite having not 1 but 2 of the best players in the league still can't attract FA's and is largely on no trade lists.

If you want something that lasts you need to start with a deep prospect pool. We are seeing more and more that UFA pool is real shallow and real expensive. Teams are doing really well in a draft if they get 3 players out of a draft, not difference makers, just players. Then most of those guys need 3-5 years of developing. Then you look at the number of players you need to replace on that current roster and i don't see how the Hawks turn this around anytime soon.

 

[Gm0ney]

I think wallowing in the middle is different than going full scorched earth. Toronto, NY, Chicago all wallowed in the middle for a number of years. When you start actively tanking you are going full scorched earth. Trading away vets, acquiring draft picks, actively icing bad rosters and going with a full on youth movement is the hallmarks of a scorched earth rebuild.

Not many teams have the combination of incompetence and bad luck to finish at the very bottom for years.

Rarely do teams fully embrace the tank for more than a couple of seasons. And it's usually after a long period of denial and attempts at quick fixes that mostly backfire (Leafs with Kessel, Blackhawks with Seth Jones).

We'll see how Boston does...

 

[Buffdog]

The Rangers were probably the most successful with the quick bottom out. Although their two high picks have been pretty disappointing and they've come apart at the seams this year.

But Chicago has been bad for years. Detroit's in the same boat - 7 or 8 years in the wilderness.

Toronto had 9 consecutive drafts between 2008 and 2016 where they picked (or would've picked) in the Top 10. Five (5!) of those were Top 5 picks! Luke Schenn, Seguin, Rielly, Marner and Matthews. They traded away the 2OA Seguin pick (and 9OA pick Hamilton) to Boston for Kessel, trying to quick fix the team.

So I don't know if being a destination has helped all that much.

Tampa Bay also had a nice little turnaround

Won the cup in 2004, bottomed out in 2007-08 and drafted Stamkos 1OA in 2008 and Hedman 2OA in 2009 and then hit on Kuch in the 2nd round in 2011 (interestingly, they took Namestnikov in the 1st round that year)

Two more cups a few years later. So basically 16 years between cups with different cores

 

[Daximus]

If you want something that lasts you need to start with a deep prospect pool. We are seeing more and more that UFA pool is real shallow and real expensive. Teams are doing really well in a draft if they get 3 players out of a draft, not difference makers, just players. Then most of those guys need 3-5 years of developing. Then you look at the number of players you need to replace on that current roster and i don't see how the Hawks turn this around anytime soon.

Bedard, Kurashev, Vlasic, Korschinski, Nazar, Rinzel, Greene, Moore, Levshunov.

The kids are already coming the problem is they will not develop without some solid vets to help them along. Bedard in particular could use some help.

 

[Daximus]

Not many teams have the combination of incompetence and bad luck to finish at the very bottom for years.

Rarely do teams fully embrace the tank for more than a couple of seasons. And it's usually after a long period of denial and attempts at quick fixes that mostly backfire (Leafs with Kessel, Blackhawks with Seth Jones).

We'll see how Boston does...

Boston still has some solid players like Pasta, Geekie, Zacha, the Lindholms, McAvoy.

I think they could potentially retool on the fly. They got a bit lucky with Pasta in 2014, flubbed what could have been an insane turnaround in 2015 (Barzal, Connor and Chabot would have turned their fortunes around pretty quickly), turned out pretty well in 2016 with McAvoy and Swayman with a couple more middling seasons and then were basically a contender for the last 8 seasons including one trip to a SCF.

I fully expect Boston to have a couple down seasons, flub a couple slam dunk draft picks, luck out with some other draft picks, somehow find like 2 starter worthy goalies, trade away the better one, trade away some other great players for depth pieces and be right back to contender status within a few seasons. Probably go to like 2 Cup Finals and lose both. It's like the Bruins blueprint at this point.

 

[Adam da bomb]

The Sabres seem pretty unique in not being able to put it together.

 

[WolfHouse]

If you're ever feeling like a good laugh, go check out the Laine thread on the Habs board.

His same 4 or 5 Finnish fanboys are still blaming it all on linemates, coaching and a sore knee.

The one delusional guy that used to post here still claims he has a better shot than Ovi and a similar skill set to Mario. He's just being held back by Coach Marty and having to play with Newhook.

Wouldnt it be amazing if Laines mental health issues were actually multiple personality disorder? And the posts were all him

 

[Adam da bomb]

Wouldnt it be amazing if Laines mental health issues were actually multiple personality disorder? And the posts were all him

Surprised he hasn't achieved more success yet as a gamer and been equally famour or left his hockey career.

 

[Daximus]

The Sabres seem pretty unique in not being able to put it together.

Currently the tied for longest active playoff drought in North American pro sports at 14 seasons with the New York Jets.

At first it was comical but now it's just sad. The Sabres are never the sum of their parts. They seem to always have some good players but for some reason the culture there is just sick. And every player that leaves there tends to find some success elsewhere.

 

[Buffdog]

The Sabres seem pretty unique in not being able to put it together.

Oilers were like that for years, but Buffalo seems to be handicapped with ownership, etc

Someone on here said that if the Jets couldn't win a cup with Helle, it's the biggest waste of generational talent ever. I disagree... not being able to do it with McDavid AND Draisaitl would be much, much worse IMHO

 

[Daximus]

Oilers were like that for years, but Buffalo seems to be handicapped with ownership, etc

Someone on here said that if the Jets couldn't win a cup with Helle, it's the biggest waste of generational talent ever. I disagree... not being able to do it with McDavid AND Draisaitl would be much, much worse IMHO

Oilers had a 10 year stretch before McDavid got them back to the playoffs. Had a bit of a blip for a couple years but they have been steady as a top seed in the Pacific now. Which may have more to do with the falloff of San Jose and Anaheim but at the very least they made it to game 7 of a SCF.

 

[WolfHouse]

Sabres have gone with 3 rookie GMs in a row... ownership has to he calling the shots and hampering their management

They never are able to create a team with identity... they were close to being a speed high event team like utah but that all fell apart and they panicked again

 

[Buffdog]

Oilers had a 10 year stretch before McDavid got them back to the playoffs. Had a bit of a blip for a couple years but they have been steady as a top seed in the Pacific now. Which may have more to do with the falloff of San Jose and Anaheim but at the very least they made it to game 7 of a SCF.

I was just saying that if McDavid fails to win a cup at some point in his career, he'd pretty easily be considered the best player to have that happen

 

[WolfHouse]

Joe thornton sharks are the biggest bust team of my lifetime... that was a very dominant crew

 

[Daximus]

I was just saying that if McDavid fails to win a cup at some point in his career, he'd pretty easily be considered the best player to have that happen

Oh for sure. I think we will see this a lot going forwards though. It's never been harder to win a Cup. 32 teams in the league, only 16 make playoffs, division oriented playoff format, 82 game season to get there. Just getting to a Cup final once in a career is hard enough. Couple that with needing your org to fill out your roster around you. It's tough.

 

[Daximus]

Joe thornton sharks are the biggest bust team of my lifetime... that was a very dominant crew

There has been a few well built teams that just couldn't get it done.

2007-2019 Sharks
2009-2015 Canucks
1994-2001 Sabres
2003-2013 Sens
2007-2017 Rangers
2014-2022 Preds
1994-2012 Flyers with two different cores of solid players losing 2 Cup Finals, 1 each
1987-1994 Kings featuring Gretzky
1982-1995 Hawks
1977-1992 Bruins with two different post-Orr/Esposito cores of solid players losing 4 Cup Finals, 2 each

Sometimes you can just put it all together and still never win. The interesting thing about all of those well built teams is they did make it to at least one Cup final but they just couldn't win one.

Dallas and Edmonton are currently trending as that 1 Cup final and done types of teams right now. I don't really count those mid 2000's Oilers and Flames teams as they just caught lightning in a bottle for a single year really and weren't much of a threat before or after.

 

[WolfHouse]

There has been a few well built teams that just couldn't get it done.

2007-2019 Sharks
2009-2015 Canucks
1994-2001 Sabres
2003-2013 Sens
2007-2017 Rangers
2014-2022 Preds
1994-2012 Flyers with two different cores of solid players losing 2 Cup Finals, 1 each
1987-1994 Kings featuring Gretzky
1982-1995 Hawks
1977-1992 Bruins with two different post-Orr/Esposito cores of solid players losing 4 Cup Finals, 2 each

Sometimes you can just put it all together and still never win. The interesting thing about all of those well built teams is they did make it to at least one Cup final but they just couldn't win one.

Dallas and Edmonton are currently trending as that 1 Cup final and done types of teams right now. I don't really count those mid 2000's Oilers and Flames teams as they just caught lightning in a bottle for a single year really and weren't much of a threat before or after.

I was a big boston fan from 77-92... dont remind me

 

[Snot Rocket]

There's a real issue with young players like Bedard coming out of junior to play on terrible teams

If a team knows that they're not in it to win, then the only incentive these kids have is to try to put up numbers. They'll often do it by reverting to their bad habits from junior. The difference is that in the NHL, playing that way will cost you games - which starts a vicious circle

We saw it in Edmonton for years with their first "lottery core" of guys like Hall, Eeberle, RNH, etc... they were coach killers, and lots of the vets who were brought in to try to model the right pro habits have spoken up about how the kids were arrogant and unreachable

That's one of the reasons why I hate complete tank jobs. People think that the most important part of it is being bad enough to dig yourself deep enough into a hole that you can secure generational talent... but I'd argue that it's even more important to have a plan to get yourself out of that hole once you do

I'm a firm believer in the draft lottery being weighted towards the 17th place team descending. Rewarding teams that clear house and tank for the bottom doesn't improve the league and create parity.
52, 59 and 66 points for the worst teams in the league is a hell of a gap from the top 3 teams.