Sensrule
Registered User
- Aug 30, 2007
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All the teams that were down 2-0 won tonight. 
Around the NHL — Episode XLXVII
- Thread starter Sanderson
- Start date
Nac Mac Feegle
wee & free
- Jun 10, 2011
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But the only team down 3-0 wins tomorrow.All the teams that were down 2-0 won tonight.
All the teams that were down 2-0 won tonight.
The Sens should play their butts off tomorrow night for pride if anything, they need to make this personal.
SensHulk
Registered User
Last year’s cup winner was an absolute disaster of an org who did virtually nothing for over a decade pre-Bill Zito and new ownership. Whatever their trading history, they were no better run than we were.
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
I really hope the Sens are going to get bullied like that next game if it means that they dominate and win.
All of this is true but regarding the last sentence... we unfortunately can't fully. Heck, we have a thread about which 1st round pick we should forfeit.
The problem is how Staios hands are already tied up. We have some good young players but really not as many as some would like to think (age at the start of next season) :
Tim Stutzle (23) : 1st line 2-way Center
Brady Tkachuk (26) : 1st line powerforward Winger
Drake Batherson (27) : 1st line Winger
Dylan Cozens (24) : 2nd line Center
Shane Pinto (24) : 3rd line 2-way Center
Ridly Greig (23) : 3rd line 2-way Forward
Fabian Zetterlund (26) : 3rd line Winger
Jake Sanderson (23) : 2-way #1 LHD
Thomas Chabot (28) : 2-way #1B LHD
Artem Zub (30) : Top-4 defensive RHDm
Tyler Kleven (23) : 3rd pairing physical LHD
Carter Yakemchuk (20) : Top-4 offensive RHD?
Linus Ullmark (32) : starting goalie with a questionable record in the playoffs
Leevi Merilainen (23) : starting goalie potential?
As you can see, we are already lacking 2 Top-6 forwards and soon a Top-4 D-man while the prospect pool only has one prospect who could realistically fill one of these needs (and didn't have a great developmental season by all reports). Unless we can attract a younger but good UFA forward using Giroux's money... we don't have many ways to improve, it will take some miracles from Staios or miracles from the draft but with the way we have been drafting... hard to see this happening at the moment.
Also, I think some are not realizing that we are not that young anymore... Sure we have a few 23-24 y/o guys but look at the ages above, we're probably going to be an over-average team in that regard next season (older players will fill the rest of the roles)
Finally, Stutzle/Tkachuk/Batherson/Cozens vs Matthews/Marner/Nylander/Knies (+Tavares being so much better than Giroux at this stage), do the same people not see what the problem is and why "realistic" posters don't see a lot of upside potential for this team? Our forward group just isn't dangerous enough. We might have one of the weakest forward groups in the league, and it's not a surprise we struggle to score 5v5
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Sens of Anarchy
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- Jul 9, 2013
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Two of the first 3 games went to overtime. Not like the Senators have been run out of the rink based on overall play. Let's see what happens tonight before crying over a sweep.
You can make hockey trades to bring in different players who are better fits, though.
That's what Florida did. They essentially have 3 guys on the roster they drafted and developed (Barkov, Ekblad and Lundell) and 1 big UFA signing (Bobrovsky).
The rest of the roster was built over 5 years, through shrewd trades of good players for other good players. They didn't build through drafts or UFAs. They bought low on guys like Reinhart and Bennett, and found diamonds in the rough like Forsling, Luostarinen and Verhaeghe. And then when Tkachuk became available, they had attractive NHL pieces that they could trade for him.
If you remember, their "core" (Barkov, Ekblad, Bob) first made the playoffs in 19-20, and they got swept. Since then, Zito has been very busy, but he hasn't had any top-end prospects join the team, nor did he bring in any big name free-agents. He moved out guys like Trocheck, Weegar, etc, for other good players and reshaped the roster a little bit every year.
We can do the same thing. Staios has already started. He moved Norris for Cozens. He brought in Zetterlund for Ostapchuk. He'll almost certainly keep going.
Let's say this summer you move Batherson for someone like Rakell or McCann. All of a sudden, you add a shooter to the top 6, and we look more balanced. Maybe you also buy low on a guy like Lawson Crouse or Mattias Macelli, who get back to form with a change of scenery.
A couple of the right moves, and the offense is better.
Then maybe in the next couple of years, a game-changing player becomes available for trade. Well guess what? We'll probably be able to put together a real good package with any combination of Pinto, Greig, Kleven or Yakemchuk.
So Staios will have a lot of options to improve this team.
The idea that we can only either stand pat or sell players for picks/prospects and rebuild, as if its a binary choice, is bizarre.
Hockey trades can, and are, made every summer.
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Sens of Anarchy
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Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
Every playoff win is a big bonus, so yeah I would much much rather lose in ECF game 7 double OT than get swept by Toronto/Montreal in the first round. I don't think it should be close for any fan.
What would we give up and what would be the point? I mean, cool we acquire a great young player but we created two big holes doing so? We don't have a lot of assets we can afford to part with.
Habs are harder to play against than Ottawa. People think this because of Caufield and Hutson but they have size all over the lineup. Which is why it's not a problem to have a few undersized players if they bring creativity and dynamism, exactly what we are lacking. f***ing dinosaur mentality.
I'd say the opposite : not ENOUGH. People don't realize how BADLY he screwed up this franchise. He probably had one of the best situations to start a rebuild in NHL history and this all we have, plus a depleted prospect pool before we even made the playoffs for the first time, this is unprecedented LMAO
I took a lot of heat for years but pretty much all my Dorion takes were as insightful as you can get. He didn't botched a few picks and made dumb moves, he did it at an unseen ratio, he made Mike Milbury look like a great GM. Look it up, no other GM come even close to as bad.
Staios has done a relatively good job in trying to save this rebuild but a lot more work will be required. The problem is the clock is still ticking with player's contracts/ages. He needs to pull more miracles but the first thing they need to do is : REVAMP the scouting department.
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
Ryan didn't have value because of his contract and injury history, you're thinking about Duchene (which we paid Turris, a 4th OA pick and a 2nd to get)
This is what we started the rebuild with :
Erik Karlsson (27)
Matt Duchene (27)
Mark Stone (25)
Mike Hoffman (28)
Jean-Gabriel Pageau (25)
Derick Brassard (30)
Ryan Dzingel (25)
Cody Ceci (24)
Prospects : Thomas Chabot, Drake Batherson, Alex Formenton, Nick Paul, Joey Daccord, Colin White, etc.
Also, 4th OA pick in 2018 Brady Tkachuk (who was 19 y/o when the season started and NHL ready)
An average GM could have build a top contender with this, and still have a good prospect pool.
That's why my hope is entirely on Staios work as I said many times already. He'll have to be creative and pull off some small miracles. Like you said, he'll also have to find diamonds in the rough. One thing you didn't mention though is how much more NHL players want to go to Florida than Ottawa, I think it goes without saying.
Hmmm, I never said that. I said Staios hands are somewhat tied up because of the mess Dorion left him with. Let's not forget that we have a 1st round pick to forfeit and our pool is probably bottom-3 in the whole league. I see some people underrating the importance of having a good prospect pool for a destination like Ottawa as opposed to Florida, Vegas, even Dallas, etc who can build their teams in many different ways, We need to rebuild it ASAP and losing that 1st really hurts.
I think what is bizarre though is to think that Staios is automatically going to be one of the best GMs and win all his trades. I look at what Florida and Washington have done in the recent past and we need to do a bit similar. But I'm not going to sit here and pretend it's guaranteed to happen. But I find Staios work so far promising, problem is Dorion did so much crap for so long and it still handicap us.
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And yet in one year we went from 25th in the NHL to 12th.
We aren’t special. A lot of teams have gone through terrible regimes only to come out the other side looking pretty good. Staios will have plenty of opportunity to continue to alter and adjust this roster to make us a contender.
We'll have to disagree. I don't think it'll take miracles to turn this roster into a contender. It'll take more smart trades and acquisitions, plus continued development of current players, but that's the case for probably ~24 other teams right now. Compared to most, I think we're in a pretty good spot.
There's no guarantees that Staios will be able to do it, just like there's no guarantee that Hughes will be able to get the Canadiens over the hump, but based on his work so far, I'm bullish.
BondraTime
Registered User
Sens are so far behind the 8 ball with prospects and picks compared to up and coming, and even playoff contending teams.
They’re in a really tough spot.
They’re in a really tough spot.
People pay too much attention to prospect lists, IMO. They'll talk about what a good spot a team is in when a 21 year old is leading their AHL team in scoring, but won't consider the 22 year old who's already making an impact in the NHL a "prospect".
Micklebot
Moderator
- Apr 27, 2010
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I'm hopeful that our success this year will have the the downstream effect of making it a little easier to attract good players
Last offseason, we were trying to convince guys like Roy Tanev and Pesce that they should sign with a team coming off a 78pts season, with a relatively unproven coach in Green, that hadn't made the playoffs since 2017.
This offseason, UFA and trade targets with NTC will see a team that jumped 19 pts in the standings making the playoffs and is finally showing some of that potential.
Not sure who the targets will be, but the job should get easier as we shake the reputation of being perpetual underachievers
We'll never be as attractive as Florida, but people forget that no players wanted to go near the Panthers for ~15 years.
So yeah, making the playoffs and having a positive culture will help quite a bit.
The issue with our rebuild was that we didn't have money to back up the cap space, and we operated in some skitzo head space where we were a scorched earth team who would go out and burn assets on half-measures like Boedker, Stepan, Zaitsev, etc, meant to try and trick the season ticket holders into thinking they weren't paying for a complete selloff of their team with no end in sight.
Then the sale made it worse, because we had Dorion going out there burning an unprecedented amount of assets on short term pieces to try and polish the turd for the sale. In his defense, he did a good job of it because you see how excited a segment of the fanbase was during the "summer of Pierre". The only problem was that the team and organization were broken, and once they had to play games the honeymoon phase of acquiring Mr. 41 in '19 wore off quickly.
You also have to keep in mind that we rebuilt in what will go down as the greatest time ever for a team to rebuild in, during the COVID era when cap space was a a premium. Look at what Arizona, Chicago, and Montreal accrued despite starting with a lot less to sell off than we did. That comes down to our budget, and our need to fake competitiveness to try and trick people into coming to games because our ownership couldn't weather the bad attendance caused by their teardown.
It's astounding how little we got for selling off our previous core. The Karlsson return saved the rebuild. If Norris was as projected (a middle 6 C), and the pick was as projected (a mid to late 1st), we're preparing to move the team to San Diego or something right now. San Diego Senators has a decent ring to it though.
Then the sale made it worse, because we had Dorion going out there burning an unprecedented amount of assets on short term pieces to try and polish the turd for the sale. In his defense, he did a good job of it because you see how excited a segment of the fanbase was during the "summer of Pierre". The only problem was that the team and organization were broken, and once they had to play games the honeymoon phase of acquiring Mr. 41 in '19 wore off quickly.
You also have to keep in mind that we rebuilt in what will go down as the greatest time ever for a team to rebuild in, during the COVID era when cap space was a a premium. Look at what Arizona, Chicago, and Montreal accrued despite starting with a lot less to sell off than we did. That comes down to our budget, and our need to fake competitiveness to try and trick people into coming to games because our ownership couldn't weather the bad attendance caused by their teardown.
It's astounding how little we got for selling off our previous core. The Karlsson return saved the rebuild. If Norris was as projected (a middle 6 C), and the pick was as projected (a mid to late 1st), we're preparing to move the team to San Diego or something right now. San Diego Senators has a decent ring to it though.
BondraTime
Registered User
Well, we are seeing then fruits of the labours of our top players, who are 23-27. I'm not sure there is going to be a ton of improvement, a guys prime is 22-26. Experience will undoubtedly help, but there likely isn't going to be an "aha" moment where they just get better at 24.
Sanderson is a Norris contender year in, year out. Stuetzle is a top line C. Brady is a top line power forward.
What we don't have is the capital to make big changes and draft big players, and we don't have a prospect pool that even remotely compares to almost every team in the league, even teams winning cups the past 5 years. You've got contending teams adding top prospects, you've got up and coming teams who weren't far behind the Sens with 5 1st round picks from the past 3/4 drafts entering the league.
The Sens are in a very unenviable spot, they pissed away 4 drafts worth of prospects, lost picks because they had the worst GM in the sport, and have an almost skill barren pool of guys coming up.
Staios has done an amazing job with what he's been given, but the issues are going to start rearing their head throughout the coming few seasons, both with the Sens themselves, and the teams they are competing for those wildcards spots with getting better.
Sens of Anarchy
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Lots of players have aha moments at 24. At 24, William Nylander's career high was 61 points. At 25, he turned into one of the premier offensive players in the league. This year, at 28, he scored 45 goals.
In terms of team building — I think the most important thing is to have a strong spine of your team.
Some seem to disagree, but I still think that we have a really strong spine in Stützle, Sanderson, Tkachuk and Ullmark/Merilainen. How they played this season was very promising, and I think they'll continue to improve.
And then in terms of a supporting cast, we're also in good shape with Pinto, Greig, Batherson, Chabot, Kleven, Zetterlund and Yakemchuk. Now not all of those players will be here long-term, some may be flipped for better fits, but again, I'd say we're in pretty good shape from an asset perspective. If we want to make a few trades, we have the ammo to do so. No real bad contracts, no limiting trade protection.
For filling out the rest of the roster, one way to do it would've been to have a stream of young players coming up, and like you said, we don't have that.
But it doesn't mean we're in an unenviable position. Look at Carolina. You'd think a small market team that's been good like they have would have had that consistent prospect pipeline coming through. They haven't. They've continually complemented the spine of their team (which they drafted – Slavin, Aho, Svechnikov, Jarvis) with shrewd signings and acquisitions, like Chatfield, Walker, Roslovic, Carrier, etc.
We're in a good spot to do the exact same thing.
Also, we spend a lot time lamenting the loss of our 1sts towards the end of the Dorion era (and the Boucher pick), and I agree that those were bad decisions. But franchise crippling? Not really.
We would've been in a better spot, certainly, with Sillinger and Yager over Boucher and a season of Chychrun, but would that have changed the outlook of this roster that much? I don't think so. It wouldn't have made us some surefire future Cup winner. There'd still be a lot of work to do.
The crippling mistakes were avoided when we luckily ended up with Stützle at 3 instead of Lafreniere at 1, and smartly pick Sanderson instead of Drysdale and Tkachuk over Zadina.
I think some of what skews the data on young players being better and more productive is that on rebuilding teams, young players tend to get a lot of opportunity. Then over time, the team gets better or the shine wears off, and a lot of the average ones settle into a different role.
If you look at the actual best players in the NHL, I can’t think of many that didn’t get better as they got stronger and faster and a little bit older. I really don’t think actual prime is 22-26, especially when you consider the whole 200 ft game.
Your last point of Brady, Stu and Sanderson be Laf, Drysde, Zadina is fair. Those situations are why we snuck into playoffs this year vs a bottom feeder. And I’ve already eaten my crow for thinking Zadina was the right choice.
So we got lucky with Karlsson trade with SJ collapsing, and a few other moves panned out. But he body of work from Dorion is probably worst GM performance since lockout given the expectation of FYOUS to what we actually have. If we sold the assets we did and made runs in FYOUS all would be forgiven, but we sold assets and didn’t come close to competing. So we essentially burned assets for short term ticket sales and to maximize the sale to the team.
Honestly this core is so relatable to the one that made Cinderella run in 2017 and then got blown up. We just don’t have EK to carry us, albeit on one leg. Age, skill level, coaching, etc is extremely similar. Just this year we didn’t get the bounces and no EK. Guy Boucher we played a similar defence first hard forcheck system.
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