Around the NHL — Episode XLXVII

[GCK]

So you can only have a successful rebuild with a generational player? Having followed this for 30+ years, I'd say it's not true

I guess generational is a bit exaggerated but elite players are required. In the era of 30+ teams what the examples that contradict that.

 

[bicboi64]

I guess generational is a bit exaggerated but elite players are required. In the era of 30+ teams what the examples that contradict that.

I think the least 'stacked' rosters (in terms of talent) were the Cane's in 06 and then the Blues. But each of those rosters had goalies playing elite, an elite defender, and at least one forward who was elite as a scorer or two way guy.

Fun thought experiment examining the last 20-30 cup winners to see who the 'least elite' were lol

 

[Micklebot]

I think the least 'stacked' rosters (in terms of talent) were the Cane's in 06 and then the Blues. But each of those rosters had goalies playing elite, an elite defender, and at least one forward who was elite as a scorer or two way guy.

Fun thought experiment examining the last 20-30 cup winners to see who the 'least elite' were lol

Who was the elite defender on the canes?

 

[bicboi64]

Who was the elite defender on the canes?

Damn, I thought Frantisek Kaberle scored more than he did that season, turns out he only had 44. Still good enough to be 23rd in league defender scoring, but I wouldn't call him elite (especially since he was behind Hedican in ice time).

Looking back, the Canes dcore doesn't scream cup winner.
Hedican A Ward
Kaberle Tverdovsky
Wesley Commodore

 

[PatrickEaves]

Damn, I thought Frantisek Kaberle scored more than he did that season, turns out he only had 44. Still good enough to be 23rd in league defender scoring, but I wouldn't call him elite (especially since he was behind Hedican in ice time).

Looking back, the Canes dcore doesn't scream cup winner.
Hedican A Ward
Kaberle Tverdovsky
Wesley Commodore

That Canes team was also lucky that they faced the weakest cup finalist opponent of the last 4 decades too.

 

[GCK]

Who was the elite defender on the canes?

We weren’t talking about Cup winners we were talking about tear down rebuilds like Chicago, Toronto and Edmonton who have been successful vs Montreal, Buffalo, Detroit, Ottawa, Anaheim SJ.

I think SJ has the high end elite players to be successful. I think Ottawa and Buffalo had chances to be successful but had/have poor ownership and management. Detroit and Anaheim are in trouble IMO and Montreal really needs Demidov to be at least Stutzle level.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

That Canes team was also lucky that they faced the weakest cup finalist opponent of the last 4 decades too.

And partly that Roloson got injured.

 

[Nova Stutzlia]

Wings lost.
Bruins lost!

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Wings lost.
Bruins lost!

Need to worry about the BJs and Penguins as well

 

[JD1]

We weren’t talking about Cup winners we were talking about tear down rebuilds like Chicago, Toronto and Edmonton who have been successful vs Montreal, Buffalo, Detroit, Ottawa, Anaheim SJ.

I think SJ has the high end elite players to be successful. I think Ottawa and Buffalo had chances to be successful but had/have poor ownership and management. Detroit and Anaheim are in trouble IMO and Montreal really needs Demidov to be at least Stutzle level.

I think the success of tear downs and rebuilds is in large part based on luck

Chicago gets Kane and Toews. They had Keith. They won several cups with average goaltending

Toronto gets a generational player in Matthew's. Is that lucky or not so lucky? They have a core that they're stuck with that are too soft to win.

Edmonton was in the abyss for years until McDavid. Yak. RNH. It's rather unlucky to get two 1OAs and you get a flame out and RNH as the best player of the two. They won another 1OA which altered the course of two franchises.

Buffalo. Lose McDavid. Get Eichel. I have a hard time seeing them being 13 years out of the playoffs had they got McDavid. Dahlin and Power are good D. But are they good 1OA players?

Ottawa has been both unlucky and lucky. Unlucky on the lottery balls, lucky that our lottery losses have turned into huge wins. The success of our rebuild hast been written yet. Ullmark's tenure here will determine the success of it all.

Montreal doesn't have any truly high end talent unless Hutson qualifies.

I agree that it looks like SJ has the pieces.

But luck plays a huge roll in it all

 

[GCK]

I think the success of tear downs and rebuilds is in large part based on luck

Chicago gets Kane and Toews. They had Keith. They won several cups with average goaltending

Toronto gets a generational player in Matthew's. Is that lucky or not so lucky? They have a core that they're stuck with that are too soft to win.

Edmonton was in the abyss for years until McDavid. Yak. RNH. It's rather unlucky to get two 1OAs and you get a flame out and RNH as the best player of the two. They won another 1OA which altered the course of two franchises.

Buffalo. Lose McDavid. Get Eichel. I have a hard time seeing them being 13 years out of the playoffs had they got McDavid. Dahlin and Power are good D. But are they good 1OA players?

Ottawa has been both unlucky and lucky. Unlucky on the lottery balls, lucky that our lottery losses have turned into huge wins. The success of our rebuild hast been written yet. Ullmark's tenure here will determine the success of it all.

Montreal doesn't have any truly high end talent unless Hutson qualifies.

I agree that it looks like SJ has the pieces.

But luck plays a huge roll in it all

Absolutely luck plays the biggest part. McDavid and Draisitl, Matthews and Marner, Kane and Toewes, Sanderson and Stutzle, Eichel and Dahlin, Celebrini and Smith.

Ownership killed Buffalo and harmed Ottawa. If Melnyk was still around we would be on our way to being Buffalo.

 

[Xspyrit]

My opinion on the tanking vs losing culture is, at some point you need high end elite talent to win. If your prospect pool doesn't have any of those players, like the Wings don't, you're going to need to tank to draft high enough on the draft to get it. If you do have that high end elite talent in your prospect pool, you need to start winning so losing culture doesn't set it like it has in Buffalo.

But what does Elite means? GCK talked about "generational", you talk about "elite" so what does all that means? Because from I have noticed over time is that definitions are all over the place.

Since last season, 22 y/o Lucas Raymond has the 10th best PPG among LW. Dylan Larkin probably a Top-20 Center, Seider and Edvinsson look like they'll be "elite" too

I think the Wings problems are more that veteran support is pretty bad in general, a bit like it was under Dorion and that they don't have enough quality young players graduated. They also lack depth at forward, not liking DeBrincat as your 3rd best forward. So unless they can't find better forwards to help out Larkin/Raymond, their rebuild won't be all that.

And frankly, no idea why they paid to move Wallman, big mistake.

I guess generational is a bit exaggerated but elite players are required.

Lane Hutson looks like he'll be elite. 11th best PPG among D-men at 20 y/o. EK had the 15th best at 20 y/o... These guys have a lot of similarities. I don't think he'll be as good as EK but still elite.

Nick Suzuki is becoming better than I thought, 2-way Center with the 19th best PPG among Cs since last season, iron man who doesn't miss games (Stutzle has the 17th Best PPG during that time)

23 y/o Cole Caufield has the 15th best PPG among RWs since last season (Drake is 14th). Slafkovsky was a 1st OA pick, is still just 20 y/o and has shown signs

Demidov has star potential, Jacob Fowler might be the best goalie prospect. Who the hell knows with Patrik Laine? He's the same age as Batherson

They have their share of elite/high end players already there or on the way like many teams. They could become a good team that's why it is important that things don't go their way like I was initially talking in post #1,968. They also don't have a GM like Dorion actually SABOTAGING things so it's a big advantage.

I am aware (and kinda shocked not everyone is?) that the competition in this league is THROUGH THE ROOF, and the Atlantic is actually one of the most competitive divisions. We need to become a Top-3 team in the Atlantic EVERY season so we'll need to stay/be better than all of Detroit, Buffalo and Montreal plus we'll need to leapfrog 2 of the others.

In the era of 30+ teams what the examples that contradict that.

Contradict what? It seems you are talking about something different than me so of course it's going to contradict it lmao

You're the one who brought the term "generational", I NEVER said you don't need elite talent to win.

And winning the Cup is not the only way to have a "successful rebuild". I think being competitive for a decade, constantly making the playoffs, winning rounds, making the ECF and/or the SCF can also be seen as a success. If it's Cup or bust in this 32 teams league, then it's pretty much always going to be bust.

Ownership killed Buffalo and harmed Ottawa. If Melnyk was still around we would be on our way to being Buffalo.

Please don't count your chickens before they hatch. We have missed 7 seasons in a row. Only 5 teams in NHL history have missed more than 8 seasons in a row... so if we missed we're tied for 6th worst.

Don't you have a history of singing the praise of Montreal's rebuild?

Read the above. I think it makes it clear. I'll consider anyone keeping that narrative trolling. I just live in Montreal, I would not waste a second of my time on the Sens board if I was a Habs fan lmao so this stupid narrative needs to die. It's like the stupidest thing I have witnessed in 17 years here

And considering how much Dorion has been sabotaging our own rebuild, almost every team has done better during that time so you could basically "praise" any team that wasn't stuck with a Dorion.

 

[Loach]

Who here posts from a PC and who uses a phone?

 

[JD1]

Who here posts from a PC and who uses a phone?

I post on here from a phone, a tablet and occasionally a desk top

 

[Loach]

I post on here from a phone, a tablet and occasionally a desk top

Is that a gaming desktop?

 

[JD1]

Is that a gaming desktop?

No, just a run of the mill, desktop I use for work purposes

 

[GCK]

But what does Elite means? GCK talked about "generational", you talk about "elite" so what does all that means? Because from I have noticed over time is that definitions are all over the place.

Since last season, 22 y/o Lucas Raymond has the 10th best PPG among LW. Dylan Larkin probably a Top-20 Center, Seider and Edvinsson look like they'll be "elite" too

I think the Wings problems are more that veteran support is pretty bad in general, a bit like it was under Dorion and that they don't have enough quality young players graduated. They also lack depth at forward, not liking DeBrincat as your 3rd best forward. So unless they can't find better forwards to help out Larkin/Raymond, their rebuild won't be all that.

And frankly, no idea why they paid to move Wallman, big mistake.



Lane Hutson looks like he'll be elite. 11th best PPG among D-men at 20 y/o. EK had the 15th best at 20 y/o... These guys have a lot of similarities. I don't think he'll be as good as EK but still elite.

Nick Suzuki is becoming better than I thought, 2-way Center with the 19th best PPG among Cs since last season, iron man who doesn't miss games (Stutzle has the 17th Best PPG during that time)

23 y/o Cole Caufield has the 15th best PPG among RWs since last season (Drake is 14th). Slafkovsky was a 1st OA pick, is still just 20 y/o and has shown signs

Demidov has star potential, Jacob Fowler might be the best goalie prospect. Who the hell knows with Patrik Laine? He's the same age as Batherson

They have their share of elite/high end players already there or on the way like many teams. They could become a good team that's why it is important that things don't go their way like I was initially talking in post #1,968. They also don't have a GM like Dorion actually SABOTAGING things so it's a big advantage.

I am aware (and kinda shocked not everyone is?) that the competition in this league is THROUGH THE ROOF, and the Atlantic is actually one of the most competitive divisions. We need to become a Top-3 team in the Atlantic EVERY season so we'll need to stay/be better than all of Detroit, Buffalo and Montreal plus we'll need to leapfrog 2 of the others.



Contradict what? It seems you are talking about something different than me so of course it's going to contradict it lmao

You're the one who brought the term "generational", I NEVER said you don't need elite talent to win.

And winning the Cup is not the only way to have a "successful rebuild". I think being competitive for a decade, constantly making the playoffs, winning rounds, making the ECF and/or the SCF can also be seen as a success. If it's Cup or bust in this 32 teams league, then it's pretty much always going to be bust.



Please don't count your chickens before they hatch. We have missed 7 seasons in a row. Only 5 teams in NHL history have missed more than 8 seasons in a row... so if we missed we're tied for 6th worst.



Read the above. I think it makes it clear. I'll consider anyone keeping that narrative trolling. I just live in Montreal, I would not waste a second of my time on the Sens board if I was a Habs fan lmao so this stupid narrative needs to die. It's like the stupidest thing I have witnessed in 17 years here

And considering how much Dorion has been sabotaging our own rebuild, almost every team has done better during that time so you could basically "praise" any team that wasn't stuck with a Dorion.

Let me clarify what my post intended to impart.

Tear down rebuilds can’t work with bad ownership or without special players. I’ve used special as opposed to generational or elite as I feel special is a Patrick Kane, Marner type level. I also define successful as perennial playoff team with a chance to compete for a Cup.

I’ll focus on the 4 Atlantic teams currently in a tear down rebuild.

Detroit - Great ownership but poor lottery luck getting only Seider as a maybe special player.

Buffalo - Terrible ownership, Eichel and Dahlin should be enough to become a successful team but they traded Eichel, Reinhart and Montour.

Ottawa - Stutzle and Sanderson are borderline special as is Tkachuk. That should be enough but brutal ownership stunted the team for 3 years. 50/50 if it can be salvaged.

Montreal - As of now they have no special players but Demidov could become one.

 

[ottawagm]

Staios sleeps more than Dorion. Nashville are giving away their young NHLers and we can't be bothered.

 

[bicboi64]

Let me clarify what my post intended to impart.

Tear down rebuilds can’t work with bad ownership or without special players. I’ve used special as opposed to generational or elite as I feel special is a Patrick Kane, Marner type level. I also define successful as perennial playoff team with a chance to compete for a Cup.

Absolutely valid points made, but I'd consider Kane as generational. The dude was the highest scoring player of the 2010s, and the only wingers better than him were Ovechkin in certain years and then Kucherov.

 

[LiseL]

Who here posts from a PC and who uses a phone?

Laptop for me.

 

[Ouroboros]

Rangers getting shredded again. Down 5-1 to Tampa.