Around the League Thread | Pre-Season Approaches

[Bojack Horvatman]

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

I'm having deja vu...didn't this happen last year at Leafs' camp, too?

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Awful news. Stephen really struggled with his pain and fell on hard times when his playing days were done. Hope he's at peace now.

 

[Hodgy]

Awful news. Stephen really struggled with his pain and fell on hard times when his playing days were done. Hope he's at peace now.

From a moral perspective, its pretty disgusting that the NHL continues to allow fighting given the mounting evidence that suggests its resulting in deaths.

I hope some players win big on some law suits and hold the NHL to account.

 

[Vector]

Didn't realize it but Peat was homeless in the greater Vancouver area and was killed in Vancouver after getting struck by a car.

 

[andora]

Jesus christ

 

[cc]

Yet another tragic death by vehicle collision
It's a shame Peat couldn't get more support with his struggles in life

 

[beachcomber]

From a moral perspective, its pretty disgusting that the NHL continues to allow fighting given the mounting evidence that suggests its resulting in deaths.

I hope some players win big on some law suits and hold the NHL to account.

I’m thinking after all these years that parents shouldn’t be putting their kids in these contact sports anymore. I played way back when and my kids did as well but it’s not worth it. Should have put them in golf school instead.

 

[Hodgy]

I’m thinking after all these years that parents shouldn’t be putting their kids in these contact sports anymore. I played way back when and my kids did as well but it’s not worth it. Should have put them in golf school instead.

I think there are separate streams of minor hockey where no contact is allowed, so essentially beer league hockey rules.

 

[RobertKron]

I think there are separate streams of minor hockey where no contact is allowed, so essentially beer league hockey rules.

I'm not sure if they've since reversed course, but PCAHA went non-checking for house hockey over a decade ago. Also, I think there's no checking across the board under Hockey Canada until they're 14 or so.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Awful news. Stephen really struggled with his pain and fell on hard times when his playing days were done. Hope he's at peace now.

The mean age of death for NHL players excluding enforcers is 57.7? That's a way more surprising fact.

 

[andora]

I dont like introducing hitting during prime teenage dickhead years it doesnt make sense

They should learn younger how to initiate and to absorb contact properly and respectfully. It should also be managed a little bit more f***ing effectively than what I've seen in the past. It needs to be taught from a young age that hitting isn't about blowing people up it's about separating people from the puck and winning a battle

It actually starts young to change the mentality from finish your check to using it as a tool

 

[MS]

The mean age of death for NHL players excluding enforcers is 57.7? That's a way more surprising fact.

‘Average age of death’ isn’t the same as life expectancy. People who are still alive aren’t included.

Like, of the 81-82 Canucks 31 of 33 players are still alive aged 60-75 and one of the deaths (Hlinka) was a car accident.

 

[bobbyb2009]

‘Average age of death’ isn’t the same as life expectancy. People who are still alive aren’t included.

Like, of the 81-82 Canucks 31 of 33 players are still alive aged 60-75 and one of the deaths (Hlinka) was a car accident.

Geesh. This makes so much sense. What a brutal thing to write in the tweet then. When the 31 other guys start passing away at 80, the average will skyrocket and could conceivably even surpass non hockey player life expectancy. This type of thing really bothers me- the media using alarming type commentary to scare or activate people when it is completely misleading.

 

[RobertKron]

Geesh. This makes so much sense. What a brutal thing to write in the tweet then. When the 31 other guys start passing away at 80, the average will skyrocket and could conceivably even surpass non hockey player life expectancy. This type of thing really bothers me- the media using alarming type commentary to scare or activate people when it is completely misleading.

I think you might be misunderstanding, given that presumably this stat includes not just the 33 players on the 81-82 Canucks team.

It's a study of mortality of enforcers within a group of their peers.

Fighting and Penalty Minutes Associated With Long-term Mortality Among NHL Players

This matched cohort study examines the mortality rates and causes of death among National Hockey League enforcers compared with matched controls from 1967 to 2022.

jamanetwork.com

 

[Vector]

Geesh. This makes so much sense. What a brutal thing to write in the tweet then. When the 31 other guys start passing away at 80, the average will skyrocket and could conceivably even surpass non hockey player life expectancy. This type of thing really bothers me- the media using alarming type commentary to scare or activate people when it is completely misleading.

I think you might be misunderstanding, given that presumably this stat includes not just the 33 players on the 81-82 Canucks team that Peat wasn't even on.

It's a study of mortality of enforcers within a group of their peers.

Fighting and Penalty Minutes Associated With Long-term Mortality Among NHL Players

This matched cohort study examines the mortality rates and causes of death among National Hockey League enforcers compared with matched controls from 1967 to 2022.

jamanetwork.com

Yea, it’s this. What Westhead is saying that among former hockey enforcers, the average age of death is 57. Which is still very young and Peat’s death is even below that.

 

[RobertKron]

Yea, it’s this. What Westhead is saying that among former hockey enforcers, the average age of death is 57. Which is still very young and Peat’s death is even below that.

57 was the age for the control group of NHL players who weren't enforcers. 47 was the age of the enforcers. The overall mortality rates between the two groups were nearly the same. The enforcer group also featured the only players to have died of overdose or suicide.

 

[MS]

Geesh. This makes so much sense. What a brutal thing to write in the tweet then. When the 31 other guys start passing away at 80, the average will skyrocket and could conceivably even surpass non hockey player life expectancy. This type of thing really bothers me- the media using alarming type commentary to scare or activate people when it is completely misleading.

It’s kind of a ick move by Westhead (who I generally respect) to go for a shock value stat like that that he had to know would be misinterpreted like this.

So yes, from the 81-82 Canucks example the ‘average age of death’ is 51 for Lupul and Hlinka despite the life expectancy of that team probably being about 80 when all will be said and done.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

From a moral perspective, its pretty disgusting that the NHL continues to allow fighting given the mounting evidence that suggests its resulting in deaths.

I hope some players win big on some law suits and hold the NHL to account.

Not diminishing the tragedy of this loss of life, but I strongly disagree.

In a world where boxing and MMA continue to be celebrated sports, why do we start finger wagging at a player fighting once every 8 games in the NHL?

Further, these are mostly privileged people who can choose to play or not.

Meanwhile we have an opioid crisis, people dying of black lung in coal mines, iPhones created by slavery mining, etc etc.

It touches us more because we see it in our living rooms (on tv/streaming platforms) but I feel a lot more morally upset about the fact that we continue to allow some people to starve on the streets while others sock away billions of dollars than I do that a person chooses an unsafe profession and is one of the unfortunates who loses their life.

Again, I realize that this could come across as disrespectful and I don't mean it thus. Anyone who dies before their time is a serious tragedy for them and everyone who loves them. But for 'disgusting from a moral perspective' fighting in hockey probably doesn't enter my top 10,000 things on this world.

 

[bobbyb2009]

Yea, it’s this. What Westhead is saying that among former hockey enforcers, the average age of death is 57. Which is still very young and Peat’s death is even below that.

Yes, I get that my comments were in relation to only the 31 Canucks players from a certain time.

But as MS said:
"It’s kind of a ick move by Westhead (who I generally respect) to go for a shock value stat like that that he had to know would be misinterpreted like this.

So yes, from the 81-82 Canucks example the ‘average age of death’ is 51 for Lupul and Hlinka despite the life expectancy of that team probably being about 80 when all will be said and done."

So, No, I dont think so. The study was for players from 1967 on, I believe (the last 57 years). How many of those players are still alive. I would suggest the majority of them are. If the study is saying of those who died, the average age is 57.7; which is exactly my age (Scary). So, how many of the control group are still alive and have not been factored into the study? Unless, the entire control group and long term study guys are all dead? In that case, you can fix the averages.

 

[bobbyb2009]

I think you might be misunderstanding, given that presumably this stat includes not just the 33 players on the 81-82 Canucks team.

It's a study of mortality of enforcers within a group of their peers.

Fighting and Penalty Minutes Associated With Long-term Mortality Among NHL Players

This matched cohort study examines the mortality rates and causes of death among National Hockey League enforcers compared with matched controls from 1967 to 2022.

jamanetwork.com

Not sure about that, as pointed out above. But maybe I am wrong. We would need to more about the study, but it is almost inconceivable that the average age of death of 6000 plus hockey players since 1967 is 57. This would and should be front page news if true. It seems that MS explanation makes far more sense and the numbers are misleading. I guess the only way to know is to look at the 6000 players and see how many have passed away. If any of them are still alive and over the age of 57, then this was a very misleading tweet as the average will shift up as they pass on- but if many of them are, it is ridiculous to frame it the way he did.

One the other hand, if they are all dead and averaged out at 57, hockey should be immediately banned as a sport. It may be worse than smokers getting cancer as a killer of men.

 

[RobertKron]

Not sure about that, as pointed out above. But maybe I am wrong. We would need to more about the study, but it is almost inconceivable that the average age of death of 6000 plus hockey players since 1967 is 57. This would and should be front page news if true. It seems that MS explanation makes far more sense and the numbers are misleading. I guess the only way to know is to look at the 6000 players and see how many have passed away. If any of them are still alive and over the age of 57, then this was a very misleading tweet as the average will shift up as they pass on- but if many of them are, it is ridiculous to frame it the way he did.

One the other hand, if they are all dead and averaged out at 57, hockey should be immediately banned as a sport. It may be worse than smokers getting cancer as a killer of men.

They lay out the methodology in the link.

They took all the players since expansion, and then filtered for the 331 players with 50 or more career fights. They then created a control group by matching each of the Enforcer group with a player from the remaining group who was as similar as possible based on a number of variables "including date of birth, total number of games played, height, weight, and position played."

The overall rate of mortality was very close between the two groups (within less than 1% of each other, IIRC), but the age of death in the enforcer group was ~10 years younger, and I believe half of the enforcer group who had died had died of causes commonly associated with CTE, while only one of the dead from the control group died of such a cause.

The point of the number is to point out the apparent impact of the enforcer role when compared to otherwise similar non-enforcers, not to make conclusions about the overall life expectancy of hockey players as a whole.

 

[Hodgy]

Not diminishing the tragedy of this loss of life, but I strongly disagree.

In a world where boxing and MMA continue to be celebrated sports, why do we start finger wagging at a player fighting once every 8 games in the NHL?

Further, these are mostly privileged people who can choose to play or not.

Meanwhile we have an opioid crisis, people dying of black lung in coal mines, iPhones created by slavery mining, etc etc.

It touches us more because we see it in our living rooms (on tv/streaming platforms) but I feel a lot more morally upset about the fact that we continue to allow some people to starve on the streets while others sock away billions of dollars than I do that a person chooses an unsafe profession and is one of the unfortunates who loses their life.

Again, I realize that this could come across as disrespectful and I don't mean it thus. Anyone who dies before their time is a serious tragedy for them and everyone who loves them. But for 'disgusting from a moral perspective' fighting in hockey probably doesn't enter my top 10,000 things on this world.

Isn’t this just “what aboutism”?

 

[Vector]

57 was the age for the control group of NHL players who weren't enforcers. 47 was the age of the enforcers. The overall mortality rates between the two groups were nearly the same. The enforcer group also featured the only players to have died of overdose or suicide.

Ah, then I don’t understand what the point of him citing that number was.

 

[Nick Lang]

Not diminishing the tragedy of this loss of life, but I strongly disagree.

In a world where boxing and MMA continue to be celebrated sports, why do we start finger wagging at a player fighting once every 8 games in the NHL?

Further, these are mostly privileged people who can choose to play or not.

Meanwhile we have an opioid crisis, people dying of black lung in coal mines, iPhones created by slavery mining, etc etc.

It touches us more because we see it in our living rooms (on tv/streaming platforms) but I feel a lot more morally upset about the fact that we continue to allow some people to starve on the streets while others sock away billions of dollars than I do that a person chooses an unsafe profession and is one of the unfortunates who loses their life.

Again, I realize that this could come across as disrespectful and I don't mean it thus. Anyone who dies before their time is a serious tragedy for them and everyone who loves them. But for 'disgusting from a moral perspective' fighting in hockey probably doesn't enter my top 10,000 things on this world.

Yeah I don't really feel overly sorry for those who willingly choose to spend their life punching people and being punched in the head. It's a shame that we were so collectively behind as a society in logically intelligent thinking on the matter. It is awful for those caught up in the job who have suffered and lost life but they had to know it was dangerous on some level as well. The worst part is fighting in a hockey game holds little value if you simply don't reciprocate and get involved. It took many decades for GM's, coaches and players alike to realize this and change the culture.

I agree there are far worse things in this world ... like I can't believe MMA and boxing still exist. It's absolutely archaic. The sole purpose is to hurt the other person and bash their heads in ... badly if possible.

What you say about some of the population starves to death while a select few profit and sock away millions on the backs of others doing actual work really gets to me. That's disgusting.