Around the League Thread | Holiday Season!

[Jerry the great]

Julien Brisebois

Brisebois is outstanding, but a lot of things went right there. They sucked at the right time (Stamkos.Hedman), did a great (f***ing great) job on the draft floor (singles, doubles, home runs galore) and won more trades than they lost. Palm trees and a favorable tax situation probably made it easier to retain talent.

The biggest issue with the Yzerplan in Detroit, is the scouts have not unearthed much at all. 29 top 100 picks over 6 drafts and not many core pieces to show for it. Layer on some weird decisions and the mediocrity continues.

 

[VanJack]

Julien Brisebois

If Wikipedia is to be believed, Yzerman drafted Kucherov, Vasilevsky, Point, Cerelli, Gourde and traded for Sergachev, McDonough and Cernak. And of course Hedman and Stamkos were already there when Yzerman arrived in Tampa.

So you might ask, what the hell did Brisebois actually do again?

 

[me2]

Of course drafting Filip Zadina when Quinn Hughes was still on the board doesn't help. That's a bigger miss than the Canucks drafting Oli Juolevi instead of Matthew Tckachuk.

Juolevi was expected to go after Tckachuk, a tier lower, so a bit of reach. OTOH Zadina was expected to go as high as 3, just about all the pre-draft lists had him rated higher than Hughes. I don't think Detroit did much wrong with that pick, sometimes you just get a dud prospect.

 

[VanJack]

Juolevi was expected to go after Tckachuk, a tier lower, so a bit of reach. OTOH Zadina was expected to go as high as 3, just about all the pre-draft lists had him rated higher than Hughes. I don't think Detroit did much wrong with that pick, sometimes you just get a dud prospect.

I understand why the Canucks chose Juolevi over Tkachuk at the 2016 draft. Their blueline was borderline disaster at the time, with nothing in the pipeline.

But Hughes could well turn out to be a 'generational player', if he isn't there already. Zadina was an outright 'bust'. Makes it seem worse somehow.

 

[Szechwan]

I understand why the Canucks chose Juolevi over Tkachuk at the 2016 draft. Their blueline was borderline disaster at the time, with nothing in the pipeline.

But Hughes could well turn out to be a 'generational player', if he isn't there already. Zadina was an outright 'bust'. Makes it seem worse somehow.

Yep, there was no shortage of scouts that considered Juolevi to be the best Dman available in the draft, and if that turned out to be true, taking the best dman at 5 is entirely reasonable *most* draft years.

The trouble was the relative value between Tkachuk and "the best Dman in the draft," because there were even more scouts that felt MT was significantly ahead of OJ in value.

 

[ManVanFan]

Stevie's asking for your help people.

 

[rypper]

The Lightning under Yzerman was a really well run organization and one i wanted the Canucks to match for a long time (except we were stuck with the two headed dumb-a-saurus.)

The Lightning had 3-4 asst. GM's all with an area of focus. I don't remember it all now but I know Al Murray was an assistant but also the director of amateur scouting. They promoted people who were really good in one area to run that area, and gave them an asst gm title to keep other teams from poaching them. The same was for pro scouting, player development etc.

At that time all Yzerman had to do was manage the people underneath him and lean on them for their expertise. Now with the red wings it seems like he's trying to do it all, and not finding near the and success.

Maybe it's gone to his head a little with the success Tampa had, gave him a sense of over inflated confidence in his abilities.

 

[ManVanFan]

The Lightning under Yzerman was a really well run organization and one i wanted the Canucks to match for a long time (except we were stuck with the two headed dumb-a-saurus.)

The Lightning had 3-4 asst. GM's all with an area of focus. I don't remember it all now but I know Al Murray was an assistant but also the director of amateur scouting. They promoted people who were really good in one area to run that area, and gave them an asst gm title to keep other teams from poaching them. The same was for pro scouting, player development etc.

At that time all Yzerman had to do was manage the people underneath him and lean on them for their expertise. Now with the red wings it seems like he's trying to do it all, and not finding near the and success.

Maybe it's gone to his head a little with the success Tampa had, gave him a sense of over inflated confidence in his abilities.

Much easier when you can walk into a Franchise center and a franchise defencemen already drafted. They were terrible at drafting in the first round during his time there. He is drafting the same as the way he did in TB, low ceiling forwards in the first round.

 

[StreetHawk]

Much easier when you can walk into a Franchise center and a franchise defencemen already drafted. They were terrible at drafting in the first round during his time there. He is drafting the same as the way he did in TB, low ceiling forwards in the first round.

Yzerman arrived in 2019 draft. I don't think any of the players drafted within the next 5-7 picks after this selection were better than what he choose in round 1.
2019 - Seider. Next best is Boldy
2020 - Raymond. Next best is Sanderson. Would have given Wings are strong D pairing with Seider, but seriously reduced their offence.
2021 - Edvinsson. Could have taken Guenther, but this is a big minute muncher with size, I would go D over Winger too.
2021 - Cossa. Obvious comp is Wallstedt as they were the top 2 G that draft.
2022- Kasper, plays C, so no issues there
2023 - Danielsson and ASP. TBD. I agree that Danielson has a lower Ceiling, but think he also targeting a C.
2024 - Nygard

Round 2 onwards is where you question the selections. At that point, you are trusting your scouting staff. Wings needed to hit

 

[credulous]

brisebois is overrated imo. tampa's drafting and development has fallen off a ton since yzerman left. they're still a good team but they haven't really produced a good player since cirelli

 

[ManVanFan]

Yzerman arrived in 2019 draft. I don't think any of the players drafted within the next 5-7 picks after this selection were better than what he choose in round 1.
2019 - Seider. Next best is Boldy
2020 - Raymond. Next best is Sanderson. Would have given Wings are strong D pairing with Seider, but seriously reduced their offence.
2021 - Edvinsson. Could have taken Guenther, but this is a big minute muncher with size, I would go D over Winger too.
2021 - Cossa. Obvious comp is Wallstedt as they were the top 2 G that draft.
2022- Kasper, plays C, so no issues there
2023 - Danielsson and ASP. TBD. I agree that Danielson has a lower Ceiling, but think he also targeting a C.
2024 - Nygard

Round 2 onwards is where you question the selections. At that point, you are trusting your scouting staff. Wings needed to hit

He is creating a team and it's a team that's going to take a while. Everything he said in that clip was correct. They tried in free agency to move things along. Rarely does free agency move the needle that much. He has drafted a lot of NHL talent but none of that ever projects to be top top talent. There's no Hughes, there's no Petey. He's gonna have to find a way to get top talent. Lots of assets, going to have to make the right moves, otherwise you turn into Buffalo haha

 

[StreetHawk]

He is creating a team and it's a team that's going to take a while. Everything he said in that clip was correct. They tried in free agency to move things along. Rarely does free agency move the needle that much. He has drafted a lot of NHL talent but none of that ever projects to be top top talent. There's no Hughes, there's no Petey. He's gonna have to find a way to get top talent. Lots of assets, going to have to make the right moves, otherwise you turn into Buffalo haha

Wings, like the Canucks, got no lottery luck. Van did manage to land 2 top level talents with their picks however. Detroit is an Original 6 team like Chicago, NY, Bos, but they are last in that group in terms of destination cities for players to sign with now. The days where Mike Illitch would spend and bring in 30 year old vets are long gone with the cap.
Shockingly, there are a bunch of Michigan guys in the NHL, but unlike Minn/Mass kids, they rarely seem to want to go home to play.
Free agency is more to add to your group, like Guentzal or fill a need, than it is to build your roster. You end up having to do what LA/Fla did and acquire guys before UFA, like Fiala, PLD, Reinhart, Tkachuck. You sit and wait, you don't even get a chance at them. Lots of Blues posters were saying, we can sign M. Tkachuck in the offseason in 2023. Rare for a top guy to end up hitting UFA like Panarin, Tavares, Pietroangelo, and even going back to Gaborik (think he was the first big name in the cap era to hit UFA). Those guys typically have a destination in mind when they hit the open market.

 

[ManVanFan]

Wings, like the Canucks, got no lottery luck. Van did manage to land 2 top level talents with their picks however. Detroit is an Original 6 team like Chicago, NY, Bos, but they are last in that group in terms of destination cities for players to sign with now. The days where Mike Illitch would spend and bring in 30 year old vets are long gone with the cap.
Shockingly, there are a bunch of Michigan guys in the NHL, but unlike Minn/Mass kids, they rarely seem to want to go home to play.
Free agency is more to add to your group, like Guentzal or fill a need, than it is to build your roster. You end up having to do what LA/Fla did and acquire guys before UFA, like Fiala, PLD, Reinhart, Tkachuck. You sit and wait, you don't even get a chance at them. Lots of Blues posters were saying, we can sign M. Tkachuck in the offseason in 2023. Rare for a top guy to end up hitting UFA like Panarin, Tavares, Pietroangelo, and even going back to Gaborik (think he was the first big name in the cap era to hit UFA). Those guys typically have a destination in mind when they hit the open market.

Yeah that's right. Usually those destinations are because there is a team there ready to win or players that look like they can win. Clearly by Tarasenko and Kane and Chariot and Holl it's a destination for old guys to get paid a retirement fee. Detroit is in real no man's land until their prospects are all fully developed. A year, two, three who knows. Crazy last year 3.33 GF this year 2.51. They shot the lights out last season.

 

[StreetHawk]

Yeah that's right. Usually those destinations are because there is a team there ready to win or players that look like they can win. Clearly by Tarasenko and Kane and Chariot and Holl it's a destination for old guys to get paid a retirement fee. Detroit is in real no man's land until their prospects are all fully developed. A year, two, three who knows. Crazy last year 3.33 GF this year 2.51. They shot the lights out last season.

Chicago, due to them being bad only landed Bertuzzi, Teruvinen, Hall, etc. Which is expected, as no top free agent with options would want to sign with a bad team and spend the next 2-3 years of a long term deal missing the PO. Since most would only have a MNTC in the final 2 years of their contract and could get moved. So, might only get 2-3 years of PO with that team in the middle of the contract. Might as well sign with a team that can make the PO early and deal with any move later. You spend 8-10 years in the NHL at that point, at some point, you have likely have been on a bad team and don't want to endure that again.

This season is a major disappointment in Detroit. Just missed the PO in 24, so should have pounced on that to make a bigger move to get help as they were just on the cusp of PO. Now, if this season continues the way it has and they drop 15 points in the standings, not in as good a position to add in the summer. harder to convince guys to join if (trade or free agency) you are close to 20 points out of PO, vs being within 5 points out.

 

[LemonSauceD]

Yzerman arrived in 2019 draft. I don't think any of the players drafted within the next 5-7 picks after this selection were better than what he choose in round 1.
2019 - Seider. Next best is Boldy
2020 - Raymond. Next best is Sanderson. Would have given Wings are strong D pairing with Seider, but seriously reduced their offence.
2021 - Edvinsson. Could have taken Guenther, but this is a big minute muncher with size, I would go D over Winger too.
2021 - Cossa. Obvious comp is Wallstedt as they were the top 2 G that draft.
2022- Kasper, plays C, so no issues there
2023 - Danielsson and ASP. TBD. I agree that Danielson has a lower Ceiling, but think he also targeting a C.
2024 - Nygard

Round 2 onwards is where you question the selections. At that point, you are trusting your scouting staff. Wings needed to hit

It doesn’t help Detroit’s bottom feeding years were wasted with particularly weak drafts.

They’ve got a really great future core of Edvinsson, Seider, and ASP back there.

Their forward group is really mid. Both right now and the future.

 

[rypper]

Much easier when you can walk into a Franchise center and a franchise defencemen already drafted. They were terrible at drafting in the first round during his time there. He is drafting the same as the way he did in TB, low ceiling forwards in the first round.

Tampa was a perennial cup contender, their firsts were usually late anyway. They cleaned up in the mid rounds though.

Kucherov, Point, Palat, etc.

 

[VanJack]

brisebois is overrated imo. tampa's drafting and development has fallen off a ton since yzerman left. they're still a good team but they haven't really produced a good player since cirelli

Brisebois will live on as a direct participant in the most lopsided trade in Canuck history.

Officially, in that June 2019 deal, the Canucks sent goalie Marek Mazanek, a 2019 third round pick and a conditional first round pick (20th overall) in 2020 for J.T. Miller.

And the Bolts didn't even keep the first rounder-flipping it to the Devils for Blake Coleman.

When you get schooled in a trade by Jethro in Vancouver--that that's just about as bad as it gets.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Yep, there was no shortage of scouts that considered Juolevi to be the best Dman available in the draft, and if that turned out to be true, taking the best dman at 5 is entirely reasonable *most* draft years.

The trouble was the relative value between Tkachuk and "the best Dman in the draft," because there were even more scouts that felt MT was significantly ahead of OJ in value.

And add in the fact that the Canucks had a 'talent whisperer' and "draft guru" in Jim Benning so presumably odds would be in the Canucks favor of whatever selection being made working out.

This is hypothetical as it is pretty clear Benning's talents were vastly overstated., which is why I think the OJ pick stings so much comparatively.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Brisebois will live on as a direct participant in the most lopsided trade in Canuck history.

Officially, in that June 2019 deal, the Canucks sent goalie Marek Mazanek, a 2019 third round pick and a conditional first round pick (20th overall) in 2020 for J.T. Miller.

And the Bolts didn't even keep the first rounder-flipping it to the Devils for Blake Coleman.

When you get schooled in a trade by Jethro in Vancouver--that that's just about as bad as it gets.

that was a win-win

they dumped a superfluous and underutilized $5.25m AAV forward who was struggling to live up to the extension they’d signed him to

that cap space allowed them to re-sign vasi to the raise he’d earned and fit in shattenkirk to fill our their D, while leaving enough room for (and adding one asset to help get) coleman and goodrow at the deadline

i don’t think you can say that the team that won back to back cups got schooled

now the deal where the rangers gave up mcdonagh and miller and got a grab bag of non-needle moving late first and sedond round picks? that was going to school

 

[Jerry the great]

David Jiricek played his 8th game for Iowa today. Since the trade he's registered a single assist and is a -5. The highlight of his time so far is getting hit by a shoryuken in his fight with Savoie

 

[Bobby9]

SJose top two C for the next decade are gonna be a blast to watch

 

[rypper]

Brisebois will live on as a direct participant in the most lopsided trade in Canuck history.

Officially, in that June 2019 deal, the Canucks sent goalie Marek Mazanek, a 2019 third round pick and a conditional first round pick (20th overall) in 2020 for J.T. Miller.

And the Bolts didn't even keep the first rounder-flipping it to the Devils for Blake Coleman.

When you get schooled in a trade by Jethro in Vancouver--that that's just about as bad as it gets.

Lol they won the cup that year. That trumps any supposed fleecing.

 

[Bleach Clean]

only Ovie (82) scored more goal than Laine (80) in his first two seasons in the league and he played 9 additional games. Laine was elite finisher from the get go and then he just fizzled. easy to laugh at the comparisons now, but over those first two seasons (when people were making them) they were valid.

Coming back to this post because it seemed off:

Ovie had 98 goals over 163 games (first 2 seasons) for a .601 G/GP rate. Laine had 80 goals over 155 games (first 2 seasons) for a .516 rate. It was further apart than the 82/80 goals would suggest.

That said, Laine was absolutely an elite finisher, agreed. But did this alone make him comparable to Ovie overall? IMO, no. Ovie was a tank that varied pace, passing and shot selection in a way Laine never could. He's far more limited. Their early point differential spoke to this.

You'll notice though that I didn't actually argue Ovie/Laine in my post... That was the poster I responded to. Instead, I said the preference of Laine to Matthews was outlandish. It immediately signaled poor talent evaluation imo. Any shortfall in scoring was more than made up in Matthews' defense, passing, positioning, and and and... It wasn't close, and Matthews' has only widened the gap since.

 

[ManVanFan]

Sounds as if Detroit and Buffalo have been talking about making a trade for Byram. I don't know what that trade would look like. Red wings definitely need a 2nd pair LHD for the future that would have PP opportunity. Red wings don't have a lot to offer that isn't in terms of picks/ prospects. That doesn't mean that the Wings can't make another trade after. Other than prized goalie Sebastian Cossa. Detroit has American WJ goalie Trey Augustine a little further away.

 

[Jerry the great]

Coming back to this post because it seemed off:

Ovie had 98 goals over 163 games (first 2 seasons) for a .601 G/GP rate. Laine had 80 goals over 155 games (first 2 seasons) for a .516 rate. It was further apart than the 82/80 goals would suggest.

That said, Laine was absolutely an elite finisher, agreed. But did this alone make him comparable to Ovie overall? IMO, no. Ovie was a tank that varied pace, passing and shot selection in a way Laine never could. He's far more limited. Their early point differential spoke to this.

You'll notice though that I didn't actually argue Ovie/Laine in my post... That was the poster I responded to. Instead, I said the preference of Laine to Matthews was outlandish. It immediately signaled poor talent evaluation imo. Any shortfall in scoring was more than made up in Matthews' defense, passing, positioning, and and and... It wasn't close, and Matthews' has only widened the gap since.

Those were regular season numbers.

I still remember the game between Toronto and Winnipeg, early in their rookie season. Toronto was up 4-0 and the Jets stormed back to win it in OT on a hat trick goal from Laine after Matthew’s missed his breakaway opportunity. The crowd almost blowing the roof off chanting Laine’s better….

Any claims of superiority started that day, and it was pretty valid (or at least not absurd) over the first two seasons when it looked like Laine was on his way to being one of the leagues best goal scorers.

Then he just fizzled and Matthews found another gear or two.

you're using the benefit of hindsight to claim something was true/obvious when these comparisons were being made, when it simply wasn't.