Around the League, 2024-25

[norrisnick]

Bolts are tied for 3rd in the league for goal differential...if they can fix their road record, I suspect they will finish at or near the top of the division by the end of the season.

After the Habs game, the bolts will be caught up on games played (both road games), hopefully, their road woes will continue for at least a couple more games, but I expect a tough game and a real good measuring stick for the guys.

Because they run up the score on the scrub teams.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Not a bad result for us though. We're now ahead of Ottawa on points percentage and if we win tomorrow will be right there with Tampa.

Tampa isn’t a great road team, so that’s in Detroit’s favor.

That said, the wings are coming off a big break from their road trip. I’m confident the team will come out of this and play hard. They’ve been playing every game since TMac took over as if it’s a must win.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

Tampugh won again, so 5 points back from them now.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

Being bored because no Wings hockey, I just noticed Ghost has 0 goals and 4 assists in his last 20 games.

 

[Ricelund]

Had no idea Cholowski was still in the league.

 

[Hazy Little Thing]

McDavid is a great player, no doubt, but I've also watched a lot of goals of his where, had he been playing on the same ice as Scott Stevens, Darian Hatcher, Chris Pronger, etc, he would have gotten his head knocked off.

I could make the opposite argument, that if Fedorov, Bure, or Jagr had been playing in today's game, where flying elbows and water-skiers weren't allowed, then they'd still be miles ahead in the goals/points race.

Obviously you don’t watch McDavid much, his game is very adaptable. He doesn’t skate through the middle of the ice with his head down like the guys that got lit up by Pronger/Hatcher/etc did. There’s a reason there’s no highlights of Radko Gudas or Jacob Trouba laying him out. Can’t hit what you can’t catch.

 

[sepster]

Obviously you don’t watch McDavid much, his game is very adaptable. He doesn’t skate through the middle of the ice with his head down like the guys that got lit up by Pronger/Hatcher/etc did. There’s a reason there’s no highlights of Radko Gudas or Jacob Trouba laying him out. Can’t hit what you can’t catch.

That is a very lazy "counter-argument" and not an accurate assertion of what my argument is. I never said McDavid would get hit because he skates through the middle of the ice with his head down.

I laid out a thorough comparison of players from different eras, making the claim that the dynamic players from the early 90s, Bure for example, were just as dynamic as the top players of today (backed by statistics) and because they struggled with the way the game was played then, so would today's players.

Oh, and BTW, you mean McDavid doesn't get laid out in the exact way Charlie McAvoy laid him out the other day? Do you watch McDavid play?

 

[RedHawkDown]

That is a very lazy "counter-argument" and not an accurate assertion of what my argument is. I never said McDavid would get hit because he skates through the middle of the ice with his head down.

I laid out a thorough comparison of players from different eras, making the claim that the dynamic players from the early 90s, Bure for example, were just as dynamic as the top players of today (backed by statistics) and because they struggled with the way the game was played then, so would today's players.

Oh, and BTW, you mean McDavid doesn't get laid out in the exact way Charlie McAvoy laid him out the other day? Do you watch McDavid play?

McDavid is a better player than all of the players from the early 90s. He is maybe a half-step below a Mario/Gretzky/Jagr talent. Full stop.

He is on his 5th straight season about to hit 100 pts, and would have been 9th straight had it not been for injury; he was pacing for 124 points that year. Sergei Fedorov and Pavel Bure are not even remotely close to this player. I'm not sure what you are on about.

 

[Oddbob]

Watching them both play? McDavid would put up 300 points a year if he played in Gretzky’s era with the putrid depth and goaltending. It’s not fair to knock McDavid just because the overall game is better now and some of Wayne’s NHL peers would be relegated to beer league hockey today.

What a way off view. McDavid wouldn't have the training and equipment he has now which is a major reason for his speed. He would have the same crappy skates and wooden sticks and would be eating pizza and drinking coke in he was in the 80s. He would also have to avoid all the actual head hunting goons of the day, who far supersede anything even the dirtiest players of today have on offer.

Also, virtually none of the players back then would be beer league only players. If you seen even some of the lowest skill goons in practice and non NHL game situations, their skills far exceed even the best beer league player. Even players we say suck, would skate circles at half energy and speed levels of any top end beer leaguer. Seen vids of low end grinders/goons playing beer league and they are coasting completely and still dominating.

 

[Hazy Little Thing]

That is a very lazy "counter-argument" and not an accurate assertion of what my argument is. I never said McDavid would get hit because he skates through the middle of the ice with his head down.

I laid out a thorough comparison of players from different eras, making the claim that the dynamic players from the early 90s, Bure for example, were just as dynamic as the top players of today (backed by statistics) and because they struggled with the way the game was played then, so would today's players.

Oh, and BTW, you mean McDavid doesn't get laid out in the exact way Charlie McAvoy laid him out the other day? Do you watch McDavid play?

That hit looked harder than it actually was.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Interesting take. The guy plays heads up hockey and barely gets touched because he is so incredibly aware, shifty and fast. Stevens, Hatcher and Pronger would have no chance at keeping up with McDavid and a hard time ever connecting on him during the flow of a game. I'm sure they'd take their post whistle shots but that's about all they could get.

Connor's generational skating, stickhandling and awareness would stand out in any era.

Exactly. I really have no idea what some people are watching. McDavid is twice as fast as anybody from the 90s, including Bure. His skating and ability to control the puck at that speed is simply unprecedented. There is nobody in NHL history that is close in that ability. Scott Stevens would barely have time to turn around before McDavid has put the puck in the net. Just cause a guy is big and strong doesn't mean he can negate one of the top 3 talents in hockey history.

McDavid isn't small, either. He's 6'1" and reasonably strong, and doesn't get knocked off the puck much.

 

[Oddbob]

Fedorov trading offense for defense is a complete fabrication. There are several factors as to why Fedorov never produced offense the way he did during his Hart season, but that is not one of them.

One of them was Feds loved the lifestyle more than the game from what I have read about him. If he played as hard and cared as much as he did in the Hart Season he would have hit 100 pts easily again. He didn't care as much about regular season as he floated a good amount and didn't show all his skill at times. Playoffs were another story where he was usually always engaged.

We talking Hampus?

Sounds like Elias. Huge no for me on him as he is a good player who needs others to make him great.

 

[RedHawkDown]

What a way off view. McDavid wouldn't have the training and equipment he has now which is a major reason for his speed. He would have the same crappy skates and wooden sticks and would be eating pizza and drinking coke in he was in the 80s. He would also have to avoid all the actual head hunting goons of the day, who far supersede anything even the dirtiest players of today have on offer.

Also, virtually none of the players back then would be beer league only players. If you seen even some of the lowest skill goons in practice and non NHL game situations, their skills far exceed even the best beer league player. Even players we say suck, would skate circles at half energy and speed levels of any top end beer leaguer. Seen vids of low end grinders/goons playing beer league and they are coasting completely and still dominating.

He has identical access to training and equipment as his peers do today, and he has the 3rd best PPG of all time, in a much lower scoring era than Gretzky and Lemieux. Saying his speed is because of equipment is laughable. He isn't just fast, he's significantly faster than everyone else, and is able to control the puck at top speed like he's standing still. This is a skill that has nothing to do with equipment.

You people keep acting like Scott Stevens and Darian Hatcher were standing around using giant nets catching Jagr and the like. Jagr scored 149 points in the mid 90s while all these so-called scary shutdown defensemen were playing. It's not like guys couldn't put points up then. And McDavid has all-time talent and ability that nobody outside of Gretzky/Lemieux and maybe Jagr had.

So classic. People just glaze historic players and shit on current players, the standard "back in my day" argument. In 15 years you'll start hearing that whatever phenom of that day would have been wrecked by Moritz Seider if he played in 2025.

 

[sepster]

McDavid is a better player than all of the players from the early 90s. He is maybe a half-step below a Mario/Gretzky/Jagr talent. Full stop.

He is on his 5th straight season about to hit 100 pts, and would have been 9th straight had it not been for injury; he was pacing for 124 points that year. Sergei Fedorov and Pavel Bure are not even remotely close to this player. I'm not sure what you are on about.

McDavid is better than all players in the 90s. Except for the three top 90s players listed. What?

Also, listing his current achievements does not in any way support your argument when taking into account the very fact that rule changes and officiating standards were FUNDAMENTALLY changed to allow players to play today in ways they were not allowed to play prior to 2005. That is the very basis of my argument. Citing the current point production of today's players can actually support my argument, not discredit it, by showing how much easier it is to produce when not being hooked, held, and elbowed into oblivion.

 

[Oddbob]

Greatness vs Best is a key distinction in this. The game is simply better than it has ever been so the overall floor of talent/ability is higher.

But taking it a step further McDavid just does things no one else has. For instance, only 6 players have put up 150 points. He is the only one to do it in the modern era. More than that, he has Datsyuk's offensive game on steroids. His ability to single handedly walk through a team is unprecedented and I'm saying that as someone who has Pavel Datsyuk as arguably my all time fave. On top of the highlights and raw natural talent he has the 3rd best career points/game ever while playing in a lower scoring era compared to Gretzky/Lemiuex's most prolific years.

As far as impact and intangibles go, he has an underrated two way game. The guy has a sneaky chippyness and grit to his game and plays as hard as anyone.
He has an absolute fire to compete and win. He has the 4th best playoff and 22nd highest scoring playoffs of all time. He also has the 3rd best playoffs points/game of all time.

In the last 12 months he led his team to within 1 goal of winning the Stanley cup, scored 3 goals in 4 games at his first best on best tournament, including the game winner in overtime last night.

IMO he is already the best player to ever do it and certainly can get himself into the convo for greatest, though that's still a longer way off. Embrace the hype, the guy is truly special and an unprecedented talent.

McDavid most definitely doesn't have an underrated 2 way game. He floats with the best of them defensively.

 

[RedHawkDown]

McDavid is better than all players in the 90s. Except for the three top 90s players listed. What?

Also, listing his current achievements does not in any way support your argument when taking into account the very fact that rule changes and officiating standards were FUNDAMENTALLY changed to allow players to play today in ways they were not allowed to play prior to 2005. That is the very basis of my argument. Citing the current point production of today's players can actually support my argument, not discredit it, by showing how much easier it is to produce when not being hooked, held, and elbowed into oblivion.

It's not the point production of today's players. It's the point production of one player. Connor McDavid.

I'd say he's better than Jagr. Mario and Gretzky, right behind. These 4 are likely the 4 best forwards of all time, so yes, he's better than all the players in the 90s except for arguably the 2 best players in NHL history? He's way, way, way, way better than Fedorov and Bure, like it's not even remotely close. What about that is hard to understand?

 

[RedHawkDown]

McDavid is better than all players in the 90s. Except for the three top 90s players listed. What?

Also, listing his current achievements does not in any way support your argument when taking into account the very fact that rule changes and officiating standards were FUNDAMENTALLY changed to allow players to play today in ways they were not allowed to play prior to 2005. That is the very basis of my argument. Citing the current point production of today's players can actually support my argument, not discredit it, by showing how much easier it is to produce when not being hooked, held, and elbowed into oblivion.

I will also say that it really doesn't sound like you watch McDavid play at all. People are constantly trying to hook, hold and elbow him, but they can't, because he is simply too fast and deceptive and cannot be caught. You think players have an issue taking a 2 minute penalty to stop McDavid from scoring at will?

If you watched him play with any regularity, you would see that rule changes have essentially nothign to do with his dominance. Most plays, he is literally untouched and dances around the opposition. Whether or not holding is illegal or legal would make zero difference because nobody can catch him. And the guys in the 90s were much slower, so in fact I'd say he'd do even better then.

Now, a guy like Caufield, or DeBrincat? Yes, big difference. These guys would likely have been rendered ineffective in the 90s because their skating isn't that great and they could not withstand the physicality of that era. But Connor McDavid is not these players. You really are dramatically underrating this talent.

 

[SirloinUB]

McDavid most definitely doesn't have an underrated 2 way game. He floats with the best of them defensively.

Outdated opinion.

 

[Oddbob]

He has identical access to training and equipment as his peers do today, and he has the 3rd best PPG of all time, in a much lower scoring era than Gretzky and Lemieux. Saying his speed is because of equipment is laughable. He isn't just fast, he's significantly faster than everyone else, and is able to control the puck at top speed like he's standing still. This is a skill that has nothing to do with equipment.

You people keep acting like Scott Stevens and Darian Hatcher were standing around using giant nets catching Jagr and the like. Jagr scored 149 points in the mid 90s while all these so-called scary shutdown defensemen were playing. It's not like guys couldn't put points up then. And McDavid has all-time talent and ability that nobody outside of Gretzky/Lemieux and maybe Jagr had.

So classic. People just glaze historic players and shit on current players, the standard "back in my day" argument. In 15 years you'll start hearing that whatever phenom of that day would have been wrecked by Moritz Seider if he played in 2025.

Training is massive in being fast and keeping pace. If he was eating poorer which is GUARANTEED as players didn't know much or care much at all about diet back then. Speed is a major factor in McDavid's game, moreso than maybe anyone ever, so staying in shape would have been important and players didn't have the diet and knowledge of today. Mario smoked fricken cigarettes at intermission back then, and Wayne was eating hot dogs and drinking coke at intermission. Imagine them with todays training and equipment. Connor is better at speed with the puck then anyone ever, but Wayne thought the game way smarter than Connor and didn't need blinding speed to tear other teams apart.

To be fair I was talking more about the goons from the early 80s and 90s which were just that much dirtier. Every team had 2-3 in every game and many of them didn't do much hockey playing, they were basically looking to run people over. Stevens and even Hatcher weren't constantly being dirty all game as most of Stevens hits were considered clean back then. The goons I am talking about are the ones who scored 1-5 goals a season even back then in the high scoring era.

You are way wrong about the people running down today over the past as people, especially here on HF always do the thing of just placing current day players with the same everything of today back then, but don't do so in reverse of putting yesterdays players into today. Imagine how fast Coffey would be with todays skates and training. Imagine Al MacInnis letting rip with todays sticks. If you do one way you have to go the other way too. which is never done by people selling yesterdays players as beer leaguers which has been said of Wayne Gretzky on this site a lot. Imagine Wayne victimizing D with no two line pass like today.

 

[sepster]

McDavid is twice as fast as anybody from the 90s, including Bure.

That is not true. At all. Not one bit. Actual statistics disprove that. McDavid's fastest recorded time is 2/10ths of a second faster than Fedorov's fastest recorded time.

Again, the difference is that McDavid can actually use that speed in today's game without the hooking and holding.

 

[Oddbob]

Outdated opinion.

It really isn't. He plays the same now as 2-3 seasons ago. Yours is a fake narrative that HF produces about top end guys being better than they are at defence, just because they are really good players. It was the same the season Ovy won the Cup, they magically said he was better at defence just cause he won. When I watch Ovy play then and now, he is exactly the same level of defence as he ever was.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Training is massive in being fast and keeping pace. If he was eating poorer which is GUARANTEED as players didn't know much or care much at all about diet back then. Speed is a major factor in McDavid's game, moreso than maybe anyone ever, so staying in shape would have been important and players didn't have the diet and knowledge of today. Mario smoked fricken cigarettes at intermission back then, and Wayne was eating hot dogs and drinking coke at intermission. Imagine them with todays training and equipment. Connor is better at speed with the puck then anyone ever, but Wayne thought the game way smarter than Connor and didn't need blinding speed to tear other teams apart.

To be fair I was talking more about the goons from the early 80s and 90s which were just that much dirtier. Every team had 2-3 in every game and many of them didn't do much hockey playing, they were basically looking to run people over. Stevens and even Hatcher weren't constantly being dirty all game as most of Stevens hits were considered clean back then. The goons I am talking about are the ones who scored 1-5 goals a season even back then in the high scoring era.

You are way wrong about the people running down today over the past as people, especially here on HF always do the thing of just placing current day players with the same everything of today back then, but don't do so in reverse of putting yesterdays players into today. Imagine how fast Coffey would be with todays skates and training. Imagine Al MacInnis letting rip with todays sticks. If you do one way you have to go the other way too. which is never done by people selling yesterdays players as beer leaguers which has been said of Wayne Gretzky on this site a lot. Imagine Wayne victimizing D with no two line pass like today.

I am not saying the players of previous eras would be bad now. I never made that argument. I agree that Coffey would be great today - he would be Makar/Hughes+. I agree Gretzky would be dominant today.

I am simply saying that Connor is an all-time talent just like those guys you are describing, and would have been just as good in those eras. For soem reaosn, you seem to think that MacInnis/Gretzky/Coffey would destroy today's NHL, but that 1990s McDavid would suddenly be pedestrian because his skating talent would be nullified by *checks notes * hot dogs?

Honestly just kind of ridiculous. Phil Kessel ate hot dogs his entire career and was still one of the fastest players in the NHL. These things matter to some degree, but they do not matter for the absolute best talents that the world has ever seen, which McDavid is. I agree that Gretzky/Lemieux/etc are those talents. I am saying that McDavid is also one of those talents, and it's pure nostalgia to pretend like he isn't.

That is not true. At all. Not one bit. Actual statistics disprove that. McDavid's fastest recorded time is 2/10ths of a second faster than Fedorov's fastest recorded time.

Again, the difference is that McDavid can actually use that speed in today's game without the hooking and holding.

No, it isn't. His actual speed might not be faster, but his ability to play with the puck at that speed is MUCH better than anyone in history, by a massive, massive margin. Fact. Obviously the raw speed isn't the only feature of his game, otherwise Michael Grabner would have been the next Pavel Bure and Dylan Larkin would be just as good as McDavid. Didn't think I had to spell that out.

No, the difference is not about hooking and holding. Again, looks like you don't watch him play at all. Guys are constantly trying to hook and hold him and simply cannot make a connection because he is moving too quickly with the puck.

Just like Gretzky's once-in-a-lifetime ability to think the game 5 steps ahead of everyone else would transcend eras, McDavid's once-in-a-lifetime ability to process the game with the puck at breakneck speeds would also transcend eras.

 

[Frk It]

Oh, and BTW, you mean McDavid doesn't get laid out in the exact way Charlie McAvoy laid him out the other day? Do you watch McDavid play?

The same McAvoy he left in the dust here on his way to a goal?



(Who probably skates better than most defenseman in the 90’s)

 

[sepster]

I will also say that it really doesn't sound like you watch McDavid play at all. People are constantly trying to hook, hold and elbow him, but they can't, because he is simply too fast and deceptive and cannot be caught. You think players have an issue taking a 2 minute penalty to stop McDavid from scoring at will?

If you watched him play with any regularity, you would see that rule changes have essentially nothign to do with his dominance. Most plays, he is literally untouched and dances around the opposition. Whether or not holding is illegal or legal would make zero difference because nobody can catch him. And the guys in the 90s were much slower, so in fact I'd say he'd do even better then.

Now, a guy like Caufield, or DeBrincat? Yes, big difference. These guys would likely have been rendered ineffective in the 90s because their skating isn't that great and they could not withstand the physicality of that era. But Connor McDavid is not these players. You really are dramatically underrating this talent.

I have not stated that McDavid is not one of, if not the best player of this era. He is. Clearly. The argument is how he compares to other eras.

To say that hooking, holding, interference, or outright headhunting in today's game is anywhere close to what it was pre-2000 is absurd. Against McDavid, or anyone. It's simply not. And I am one that absolutely agrees that the lack of penalties drawn by McDavid, especially in the playoffs, is a huge, and purposeful, screwup by the NHL. But there is no argument whatsoever to say today's game approaches anything of past eras.

 

[RedHawkDown]

I have not stated that McDavid is not one of, if not the best player of this era. He is. Clearly. The argument is how he compares to other eras.

To say that hooking, holding, interference, or outright headhunting in today's game is anywhere close to what it was pre-2000 is absurd. Against McDavid, or anyone. It's simply not. And I am one that absolutely agrees that the lack of penalties drawn by McDavid, especially in the playoffs, is a huge, and purposeful, screwup by the NHL. But there is no argument whatsoever to say today's game approaches anything of past eras.

You are not understanding what I am saying, at all. I am saying he is one of the best players of any era. Not just this era.

I also never said hooking and interference and obstruction are anywhere near what they were pre-2000. That's not the point. You aren't getting it. The point is that the lack of those things is not what is allowing McDavid to thrive. If you ever watched him play, you would see this. Players are not hooking/holding/interfering overall nearly at the level of 1990-2000, but they are absolutely doing their best to stop McDavid with those illegal techniques, becuase he is special. He is not like everybody else in the league. And they cannot stop him, with legal means or otherwise, because people cannot get close enough to him to hook or hold him the vast majority of the time.

I suggest you actually watch like 5-10 games of McDavid. I would agree with you about really any other player in today's era. Draisaitl for example I don't think puts up the same numbers in the 90s. McDavid is very different from these guys.