Around the League - 2024-2025 Part II

[Evilhomer]

Gives teams soooooo much leeway too.

Same shit with Tampa. People constantly going on how Tampa is better than the Leafs, so since Florida made quick work of Tampa, they will do the same to the Leafs. But like, if you look back since the last time Tampa made the finals, Leafs have both a better regular season record, and more playoff success. But people dont want to admit that.

Has anyone actually said that Tampa is better than Toronto? Those two teams aren't even really close, but nor should they be.

 

[ACC1224]

Hockey can be such a funny sport at times. If the Avs D doesn’t kick the puck in his own net to tie it, the outcome could have been so very different.

 

[Jojalu]

Mack scored the goal that put them up 2 in the 3rd and it should have been enough to win that game if not for Rantanen stealing that game from him and his old team.

First game 7 goal ever.

But I agree with Gary. It's insane to go after Mack.

 

[Gary Nylund]

OK,

I just said Rantanen in general is a 5 million dollar player, never brought up any numbers since the trade, never mentioned play away from Mac, never thought he was in a great location to turn it around, never praised him when he did look good and never mentioned his underlying numbers were still great.

Can we move on now?

This sounds like a bunch of sarcasm to me. I'm happy to move on you can just answer one question with a simple yes or no, without any spin. Can you do that?

Do you agree that saying Rantanen was "at best a 5 million dollar player" was well off the mark?

The arguement would be he can't win a game 7 and doesn't produce in game 7's.

Players don't win games, teams do. You later say that "it's crazy to blame either of them soley since it's a team game", if you understand that, why are you saying "he can't win a game 7". Do you see how you're contradicting yourself here?

MacKinnon scored a huge goal last night, that was game 7, wasn't it?

Marner routinely leads the Leafs in playoff points but scores most of his points game 1-4.

He was also a ghost the one time we got past the 1st round so I'd amend that to say he gets his points in games 1-4 of the first round. Hoping that changes soon but until it does, it is what it is.

Mack leads his team in points and scores game 1-6.
Both no shows for Game 7. Both lose.
But it's crazy to blame either of them soley since it's a team game.
Col did go on that amazing run and win so Mack will get a pass. If that run had not happened, the narrative would be the same. Can't win when it matters.

Mack wasn't a no show last night, sorry but that's just wrong. You really need to separate team/player performance as blaming Marner for the Leafs losing is simply wrong, and blaming MacKinnon for Colorado losing is also wrong.

 

[Nineteen67]

Has anyone actually said that Tampa is better than Toronto? Those two teams aren't even really close, but nor should they be.

Over the past 25 years Tampa has proven to be the better organization, but this year the Leafs might be slightly better. Probably time for them to rebuild their farm system and find their next crop of star players.

 

[Zybalto]

Do you agree that saying Rantanen was "at best a 5 million dollar player" was well off the mark?

OMG, I totally forgot,

Are you sure you want to go down this road?

 

[PromisedLand]

The Stars next season have following UFAs Benn, Duchene, Granlund, Dadonov, and Ceci and at the same time allocate 20M of their cap because of Rantanen, Johnston, and Oettinger extensions.

Dallas has big cap constraints next season.

Should be interesting what Tre does in the off-season. Obviously we gotta re-sign Knies. Other than that I'd like Tre to exercise some options instead of re-signing tavares/marner of course depending on the outcome of the playoffs for the Leafs

 

[Peasy]

Has anyone actually said that Tampa is better than Toronto? Those two teams aren't even really close, but nor should they be.

Mainly just going off of what people are spewing on the mainboards but everything there should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Jojalu]

This sounds like a bunch of sarcasm to me. I'm happy to move on you can just answer one question with a simple yes or no, without any spin. Can you do that?

Do you agree that saying Rantanen was "at best a 5 million dollar player" was well off the mark?

Players don't win games, teams do. You later say that "it's crazy to blame either of them soley since it's a team game", if you understand that, why are you saying "he can't win a game 7". Do you see how you're contradicting yourself here?

MacKinnon scored a huge goal last night, that was game 7, wasn't it?

He was also a ghost the one time we got past the 1st round so I'd amend that to say he gets his points in games 1-4 of the first round. Hoping that changes soon but until it does, it is what it is.

Mack wasn't a no show last night, sorry but that's just wrong. You really need to separate team/player performance as blaming Marner for the Leafs losing is simply wrong, and blaming MacKinnon for Colorado losing is also wrong.

I am not being serious. I think it's crazy to blame Mack. Col would almost certainly never make a game 7 if it wasn't for him.

Plus, he has been very good in Game 7's. A little snakebit.

 

[Gary Nylund]

OMG, I totally forgot,

Are you sure you want to go down this road?

LMAO what road is that?

I asked you a simple yes/no question, you not wanting to answer speaks volumes. I think you know you were wrong, that it was a ridiculous thing to say, why not just admit it without trying to spin or obfuscate your way out of it? There's no shame in being wrong from time to time, it happens to everyone. If you can never admit to even the most obvious mistakes though, your credibility is gone. Up to you.

I am not being serious. I think it's crazy to blame Mack. Col would almost certainly never make a game 7 if it wasn't for him.

Plus, he has been very good in Game 7's. A little snakebit.

Mack is good to great pretty much always and that's all I ask from Marner - I've never blamed team losses on him but I do want him to keep it going after game 86. Two years ago he was a non-factor against Florida, I really hope he can be much better this time around, because Florida looks to be a very tough out and if we only get 5 million worth of performance for Marner's 11 million cap hit, it's going to be very tough for the rest of the team to make up for that.

We need everyone to contribute, especially the guys with the biggest cap hits. It's one thing for a 4 million dollar to play like a 2.5 million dollar player, that's not that big a deal to overcome. An 11 million dollar guy playing like a 5 million dollar guy though, you're really behind the 8-ball when that happens.

 

[Zybalto]

This sounds like a bunch of sarcasm to me. I'm happy to move on you can just answer one question with a simple yes or no, without any spin. Can you do that?

Do you agree that saying Rantanen was "at best a 5 million dollar player" was well off the mark?

Well, lets go back.....

First post on Rantanen:

Im fine with ignoring defensive play on this and you certainly have a point on body of work but Rantanen away from MacKinnon is worse Marner and in the playoffs, its even more glaring.

The Avs took a gamble that Rantanen was replaceable and they look more or less correct as Rantanen absolutely blew his Canes audition and has been merely "OK" with the Stars so far. Away from MacKinnon overall, Rantanen is, at best, a 5 million dollar player. This is not a good look. The fancy stats say Rantanen is better than he has produced but if I had to choose between the 2, its Marner all the way right now. Rantanen seems a huge gamble but lets see how both do in the playoffs.

That Stars/Avs series going to be must watch for the storyline.

Then you wrote:

Hmm, yeah I don't know about that.

(referencing the 5 million)


and I wrote:

Rantanen isnt great defensively and isnt much of a line driver.

With the right guys hes absolutely lethal though, one of the best scoring wingers in the league. Dallas has so many forward options, probably just have to set him up with the right guys and he'll come through.

As it stands though, he's been overall pretty rough away from Mac, both on the Avs and off.

then you wrote:

Yeah whatever, saying he's worth 5 million tops is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off.

and then I replied (noticing you made it a general statement):

Not what I said at all.

I said outside of playing with Mac his numbers are just that and I also said he's probably going to pick that up in Dallas with their plethora of scoring forwards. I dont know about 12 million but the big worry was that his numbers were a product of Mac when the first trade happened wasnt it?

If he's not putting up points and especially scoring goals, his value plummets pretty quick. He's already picked it up in Dallas and if he has a decent playoffs, hes gonna look like a good pickup. All of a sudden getting pushed out of playing with the reigning Hart trophy winner (and contender this year) is gonna feel a little jarring for sure.

(notice all my defenses of Rantanen this whole time)

then you wrote:

Below is what you said, I quoted you directly, and you're crazy.

Away from MacKinnon overall, Rantanen is, at best, a 5 million dollar player.

See how you slid in Mac here? You didnt include that before so I explained:

Yes, I said that, and no you said in that response:

Yeah whatever, saying he's worth 5 million tops is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off.

Notice you left out I was saying "away from MacKinnon overall" in your quote. Maybe its just the format but I like to be quoted accurately. Otherwise the impression folks would get is that I thought he was only worth 5 million. Thats all I was saying there.

How much do you think a 20 minute, 25 goal, 60 point player whos meh defensively, doesnt PK and has trouble scoring at even strength is worth? Thats what he has been outside of Mac. Some guys continue to thrive in new environments (Guentzel), some falter (Meier) and some find another gear (Bennett).

Nothing crazy about that take no? I even say hes not that and will pick it up and praise him otherwise and even purposely left out defensive numbers in my Mac comparisons as it makes him look even worse.

Notice I'm still defending Rantanen the whole time and hoping that some bad faith creep doesnt try to misquote me in the future as him somehow being only worth 5 million overall and not based on his numbers away from Mac.?

Then you said:

LOL at you whining about not quoting you accurately when I you know, quoted you. I didn't alter your words or anything, I quoted your exact words.

Notice how you are shifting here and then saying you initially quoted me accurately when you didnt? That was my whole point lol. I was fine if you just said "Away from Mac" to begin with.

Anyways, I then responded:

If people saw that post on its own, they would think I was talking about his overall play. That's all I was saying. Do you get it?

Might be a silly complaint from me I admit but I was actually hoping to avoid having to explain to someone what I meant and I still have to lol. Feel like you are doing this on purpose to drive me nuts.

If your point was to avoid the rest of what I said, mission accomplished heh.

I just spelled it out with a little banter again and then you replied:

Agreed.

(highlighting the word silly)

Turns out it wasnt a "silly" worry at all eh? I just wanted some convo in the past to be let go but since this was maybe the only one where I got a vibe that someone was going to lie and misquote me with, its good I pushed back at the time and I have to bring it up. Here we are once again and you are just throwing out a blanket general statement and you even said I never mentioned Mac too lol. I dont even know what to say.

The bigger question here is why you would continue to lie and gaslight on this. I think the Leafs playoff woes over the years may have finally driven you insane.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Well, lets go back.....

First post on Rantanen:

Then you wrote:

(referencing the 5 million)

and I wrote:

then you wrote:

and then I replied (noticing you made it a general statement):

(notice all my defenses of Rantanen this whole time)

then you wrote:

See how you slid in Mac here? You didnt include that before so I explained:

Notice I'm still defending Rantanen the whole time and hoping that some bad faith creep doesnt try to misquote me in the future as him somehow being only worth 5 million overall and not based on his numbers away from Mac.?

Then you said:

Notice how you are shifting here and then saying you initially quoted me accurately when you didnt? That was my whole point lol. I was fine if you just said "Away from Mac" to begin with.

Anyways, I then responded:

I just spelled it out with a little banter again and then you replied:

(highlighting the word silly)

Turns out it wasnt a "silly" worry at all eh? I just wanted some convo in the past to be let go but since this was maybe the only one where I got a vibe that someone was going to lie and misquote me with, its good I pushed back at the time and I have to bring it up. Here we are once again and you are just throwing out a blanket general statement and you even said I never mentioned Mac too lol. I dont even know what to say.

The bigger question here is why you would continue to lie and gaslight on this. I think the Leafs playoff woes over the years may have finally driven you insane.

This is what you said:
Away from MacKinnon overall, Rantanen is, at best, a 5 million dollar player.

I have quoted you accurately all along, you saying:
"See how you slid in Mac here? You didnt include that before so I explained:"
is simply a lie.

Now you're saying that I "slid in" Mac, calling me a "bad faith creep" who's misquoting you and accusing me of gaslighting.

Accusing someone of gaslighting when you're the one doing the gaslighting is really pathetic. You can answer the one simple yes/no question and be done with this, or you can keep up the pathetic gaslighting act but do you really think you're fooling anyone here?

 

[BallardEra]

Robertson, Heiskanen set to return for Stars in Western 2nd Round | NHL.com

Leading goal-scorer, top-pair defenseman each missed opening series with lower-body injury

www.nhl.com

 

[Dekes For Days]

But you know they are not. And you know that's not how advanced stats work.
You are smart enough, and I defend you enough to know that will can't be measured.
A scoring chance is measured by proximity to the net. Same as a HDC.
It doesn't factor in who is taking the shot.
A Matthews shot in game 40 of the season from thr slot is different than game 6 of a series.
Stress comes into play. If you are struggling with past failures, that comes into play. Injury comes into play Had a fight with your wife, that comes into play. It's not an exact science. It's a helpful tool.

That is how advanced stats work. Scoring chances and high danger chances are not just proximity to the net. Things like shot type, preceding events, blocks, etc. are factored in to whether it's a scoring chance. And that's for one of the more simplistic advanced stats. Can you paint the full picture with scoring chances alone? No, but nobody is doing that. And if you want to factor in who is taking the shot, there are also things like scoring talent adjusted expected goals. Advanced stats aren't just people counting shot attempts like 20 years ago.

Will can be measured. Or at least the impact of it. We are both smart enough to know that there isn't magical fairy dust changing outcomes but simultaneously impacting absolutely nothing that is happening on the ice. You don't win hockey with thoughts and internal traits. You win hockey by translating that to your on-ice actions. You don't lose because you're injured, distracted, stressed, etc. You lose because of how those things affect your on-ice performance. Advanced stats don't eliminate the "human elements". They record the impacts the "human elements" are having.

 

[Zybalto]

This is what you said:
Away from MacKinnon overall, Rantanen is, at best, a 5 million dollar player.

I have quoted you accurately all along, you saying:
"See how you slid in Mac here? You didnt include that before so I explained:"
is simply a lie.

Now you're saying that I "slid in" Mac, calling me a "bad faith creep" who's misquoting you and accusing me of gaslighting.

Accusing someone of gaslighting when you're the one doing the gaslighting is really pathetic. You can answer the one simple yes/no question and be done with this, or you can keep up the pathetic gaslighting act but do you really think you're fooling anyone here?

I'll let the rest of the folks decide what's what.

As it stands, everything i wrote there I still believe. Up until that point he was a 5 million dollar player away from Mac. That's why there were multiple hate threads on him in the general.

I then clarified I wasn't talking generally right away and expressed my support he was gonna pick it up.

Why are you in here today lying that it wasn't the case and then call any worries of being taken out of context silly? Damn, I wished I had actually just called him a mere 5 million dollar player now lol. I would have just moved on. Who around here doesn't have bad takes (I've gotten half the series wrong, thought Kucherov was gonna tear it up and though Helle might win the Conn smyh lol)

AWFUL look for you man and you can't even own it. Your in too deep now.I don't know how you managed to self own this hard but you did.

Anyone else out there reading, watch out for this kind of bad faith debate tactic.

 

[ULF_55]

No "human element" is eliminated. It's not the scary boogeyman people pretend it is.

With more data elements I'm sure it will just keep getting better.

It's just playing with data, and I'm not into it but I'm sure each event is modified by individual player's ability, their current streak, their complete health report, their line-mates and opponents complete bios with current statistics and health status, and the length of the current shift by each player on both teams.

Watching on video you can't see everything with one camera angle, so using advanced stats with a complete data analysis coaches would have a better idea on how to make adjustments.

For the fans just overeating.

 

[Zybalto]

Crazy how Helle is arguably the best overall goalie in the regular season but is a 1 million dollar goalie in the playoffs.

*disclaimer: this does not mean I think Helle is an overall 1 million dollar goalie and I do think he will bounce back.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

 

[ULF_55]

If Schenn was a Leafs player who left his feet to headshot how many games does he get?

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'll let the rest of the folks decide what's what.

As it stands, everything i wrote there I still believe. Up until that point he was a 5 million dollar player away from Mac. That's why there were multiple hate threads on him in the general.

I then clarified I wasn't talking generally right away and expressed my support he was gonna pick it up.

Why are you in here today lying that it wasn't the case and then call any worries of being taken out of context silly? Damn, I wished I had actually just called him a mere 5 million dollar player now lol. I would have just moved on. Who around here doesn't have bad takes (I've gotten half the series wrong, thought Kucherov was gonna tear it up and though Helle might win the Conn smyh lol)

AWFUL look for you man and you can't even own it. Your in too deep now.I don't know how you managed to self own this hard but you did.

Anyone else out there reading, watch out for this kind of bad faith debate tactic.

How very generous of you to give "folks" permission to think for themselves.

This is what you said - Away from MacKinnon overall, Rantanen is, at best, a 5 million dollar player.

When I challenged you on that, you didn't clarify anything, all you did was spin, now you've moved on to gaslighting. If you still believe that Away from MacKinnon overall, Rantanen is, at best, a 5 million dollar player. good for you, we're all entitled to our opinions.

 

[weems]

Wow that's rough for Winnipeg.

When you take Scheifele out of their lineup, the center position looks pretty bad.

 

[Gabriel426]

Sorry that was never going to happen.

Canes did asked for MM in a potential trade for Rantanen. If MM said yes, who knows where Rantanen would be playing now

 

[Gabriel426]

But then it's not guaranteed we win the first round with him either. Maybe he gels here like in Carolina.

True or a line of Rantanen-Knies-AM just steamrolled the Sens and swept them 4 straight without any OT wins

 

[QJo]

I'm surprised the NHL didn't go with an afternoon game today and start the Easts rd 2 tonight. I am forever thinking they should compact the playoff schedule as much as is reasonable though.

 

[ToneDog]

Canes did asked for MM in a potential trade for Rantanen. If MM said yes, who knows where Rantanen would be playing now

He'd be suiting up in Blue and White tonight. Thanks to Marner, he is probably going to help Dallas go to the SCF.