Around the League - 2022 offseason thread

[njdevils1982]

Elias is the second best Czech, the number #1, is Jagr (Legend)!

He has 2 Lord Stanleys , 1 Olympic medal, 2 World medals.

Elias has over 1K points and holds most of the Devils’ offensive records.

But the HOF is a popularity contest and they lost all credibility with not putting Burns in before his death.

that was a complete farce with the burns induction

its been a bone of contention and not only for devils fans. an egregious lack of class for what was an inevitable happening

shame.

 

[glenwo2]

the fact that Mogilny STILL isn't in is a God damn travesty.

I'm beginning to wonder if they even FORGOT that Mogilny even existed, let alone played in the NHL at this point.

I mean...what other reason is there? Because he's got the numbers so.....what gives?

 

[BurntToast]

I was doing some research:

The Avs killed the 2009 draft. They selected Duchene and O’Reilly (1 and 2), which they ended up trading for a ton of assets.

Outside of 2009 most of their drafts where pretty lack luster, but when the Avs hit on a player, they tend to be All-Stars.

10 drafts since 2009 (minus 21-20, to early to judge), they only hit on 6 first round picks. 2 came in 2019, Newhook and Byram. There are some drafts where none of the players worked out.

It was their shrewd trades that pushed them over the edge. Without players like Maltsev, they don’t win the cup .

 

[MadDevil]

I'm beginning to wonder if they even FORGOT that Mogilny even existed, let alone played in the NHL at this point.

I mean...what other reason is there? Because he's got the numbers so.....what gives?

If Mogilny was from Saskatoon he'd be in the Hall already.

 

[glenwo2]

If Mogilny was from Saskatoon he'd be in the Hall already.

And Brian Burke wouldn't be saying there's 14 guys ahead of him either.

 

[Saugus]

If Mogilny was from Saskatoon he'd be in the Hall already.

If Mogilny was from Saskatoon, his name wouldn't be Mogilny.

And he might not play like Mogilny either. Big difference in the styles of play between the Soviet system and Canadian juniors.

But still, he should be in.

 

[Bleedred]

I'm awaiting the Dave Hunter or the posthumous induction of Dave Semenko any year now.

''He even got in the ring with Muhammad Ali and was not killed!''.

 

[Brodeur]

I was doing some research:

The Avs killed the 2009 draft. They selected Duchene and O’Reilly (1 and 2), which they ended up trading for a ton of assets.

Outside of 2009 most of their drafts where pretty lack luster, but when the Avs hit on a player, they tend to be All-Stars.

10 drafts since 2009 (minus 21-20, to early to judge), they only hit on 6 first round picks. 2 came in 2019, Newhook and Byram. There are some drafts where none of the players worked out.

It was their shrewd trades that pushed them over the edge. Without players like Maltsev, they don’t win the cup .

As I remember it, they had O'Reilly ranked #15 on their board, Stefan Elliott #22, and Tyson Barrie #24. Although they followed that up with a terrible 2010 Draft. Sometimes I wonder how much randomness/luck there is. The Kings staff was imploring Dean Lombardi to trade up for Ryan O'Reilly but Lombardi refused to include pick #35 in any trade discussion because he was absolutely set on drafting Kyle Clifford. Colorado then got O'Reilly at #33.

 

[Bleedred]

Elias is the second best Czech, the number #1, is Jagr (Legend)!

He has 2 Lord Stanleys , 1 Olympic medal, 2 World medals.

Elias has over 1K points and holds most of the Devils’ offensive records.

But the HOF is a popularity contest and they lost all credibility with not putting Burns in before his death.

Here's a good question

How many Czech's are in the hall of fame?

Certainly Jagr is not because he's still playing.

Hasek is in

Who else? That's gotta be it, no?

If they put another Czech in (other than Hasek and Jagr in the future) before Elias then that's f***ed.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Here's a good question

How many Czech's are in the hall of fame?

Certainly Jagr is not because he's still playing.

Hasek is in

Who else? That's gotta be it, no?

If they put another Czech in (other than Hasek and Jagr in the future) before Elias then that's f***ed.

I think its Hasek and Vaclav Nedomansky

 

[None Shall Pass]

I was doing some research:

The Avs killed the 2009 draft. They selected Duchene and O’Reilly (1 and 2), which they ended up trading for a ton of assets.

Outside of 2009 most of their drafts where pretty lack luster, but when the Avs hit on a player, they tend to be All-Stars.

10 drafts since 2009 (minus 21-20, to early to judge), they only hit on 6 first round picks. 2 came in 2019, Newhook and Byram. There are some drafts where none of the players worked out.

It was their shrewd trades that pushed them over the edge. Without players like Maltsev, they don’t win the cup .

This sort of drives the point home:



They drafted their top forward line, their 3C, Makar and Byram. Of their 23 man Cup winning roster, that's only six players!

 

[My3Sons]

This sort of drives the point home:



They drafted their top forward line, their 3C, Makar and Byram. Of their 23 man Cup winning roster, that's only six players!

That doesn't even take into account Maltsev!!

 

[Guttersniped]

View attachment 562546


Pie charts: 1
“Everyone in the hockey world”: 0

This f***ing debate. I was supposed to bow to the greater knowledge that comes from listening to complaining fans in Montreal and accept that Zacha was worth as much as this “defensive third liner”.

Lekhonen had great underlying stats, he’s just more of a volume shooter than a sniper so you’re going to see periods of pucks not going in. (And fans don’t respond well to those periods.) He had offense in Montreal, particularly when the coach and/or teammates didn’t drag it down. Plus he’s just a fun, high motor, high effort guy and perfect for the playoffs. (And I’m a mild Zacha apologist on this board too, but come on.)

 

[Oneiro]

You could argue that better late round drafting (beyond Barrie and O'Reilly in 2009) would've made Sakic's job easier before and after he arrived. From 2010-17, not even a Sharangovich-level player after the first round.

Interesting contrast to TB (Kucherov, Point, Palat, Killorn, Cirrelli, Colton, Joseph, Gudas, Paquette, Erne, Panik and more) and peak CHI (Keith, Crawford, Hjarlmarsson, Wisniewski, C. Anderson, Byfuglien, Brouwer, Bolland, Bickell, Kruger, Saad, Shaw, Danault). Quite a few first round misses for TB and CHI as well...Haha.

When a scouting staff is on, they're on sometimes. Damn. And they still miss on the big ones.

 

[Guttersniped]

I have argued that Luongo SHOULD be in the HOF for years now, but I am somewhat surprised he got in first ballot.

I really thought he might have gone 5 years past eligibility before getting in.

He should have probably won the Vezina in 03-04. The best they gave him was a third place finish that year. Marty won the Vezina that year. Looking back on it, I would have given him the Vezina over Brodeur that year. I think the reason he didn't get the Vezina (or second place) was because his wins/loss record was ridiculously lopsided that year. He was 25-33-14 that year, but he had a .931% on an absolutely awful team. Typically, they don't give the Vezina to goalies on a non-playoff making team, so I understand why he lost out that year. Still to this day I think Bobrovsky in 12-13 is the only goalie to win the Vezina on a non-playoff team and that was a lockout shortened 48 game season.

He came in 2nd to Marty once again in 06-07, but I do think Marty deserved the Vezina over him that year. Brodeur had the higher save percentage by one point and he played in two more games. Luongo did play 76 games that year, but Brodeur played in 78. So I'm willing to give Luongo Brodeur's Vezina from 03-04, but not 06-07, but he is an extremely close second for me that year.

I think Brodeur's 06-07 and 07-08 seasons were his best, when you factor regular season only. I would argue his 07-08 season was better than his 06-07 season. Save percentage was 2 points lower, but he also only had 4 shutouts to 12. His save percentage being 2 points lower in 07-08 than in 06-07, but with 8 fewer shutouts. He didn't many shutouts that year and surely not enough to bloat his save percentage like it probably did the year before, but that means he was playing even better in the games he wasn't getting shutouts in IMO.

Luongo's career for me was more about how consistently well he played for the duration of his career, despite no personal accolades in the NHL.

However, he did play VERY BADLY in the 2011 SCF, in the one time he made the finals. And he also made a comment about Tim Thomas and his over-aggressiveness causing him to allow the one and only goal of game 5 of that series where Luongo and the Canucks won the game 1-0. Luongo was blown up and chased early the next game with a chance to clinch the cup and then allowed 3 or 4 the next game too. And he allowed 8 goals in a game earlier that series.

There’s one reason Luongo didn’t win the Vezina in 2003-04. The Panthers weren’t a playoff team. That’s a hard unbreakable rule. (Edit: I missed Bob, but he had a nice winning record, 21-11-6, on a team that was tied in points with two playoff teams. So not an completely unbreakable rule later lol, but the GMs expect wins, particularly back in the day, similar to Cy Young in the baseball.)

Typically even a Vezina worthy performance by a non-playoff goalie gets a few pity votes but never near the top three. Luongo had one of the greatest goalie seasons of all time in 2003-04, and he didn’t come even remotely close to winning it that year.

Jim Carrey won his infamous Vezina in part because both the Sabres and the Devils missed the playoffs in 1995-96. It kills me that we missed that year because with Hasek out of the way Brodeur had an easier shot to win but no playoffs = 4th place.

The best showings by non-playoff goalies (with 5% of the vote as a cut-off) since the award started in 1981-82. (I put top 3 finishes in bold):

John Vanbiesbrouck (NYR) 6th in 1987-88 (1/2/1, 12 pts, 11.43%)

John Vanbiesbrouck (FLA) 2nd in 1993-94 (6/10/4, 64 pts, 49.23%)

John Vanbiesbrouck (FLA) T-5 in 1994-95 (1/1/3, 11 pts, 8.46%)

Sean Burke (HAR) T-8 in 1994-95 (0/2/1, 7 pts, 5.38%)

Martin Brodeur (NJD) 4th in 1995-96 (4/3/2, 31 pts, 23.85%)

Dominik Hasek (BUF) 8th in 1995-96 (1/1/1, 9 pts, 6.92%)

Sean Burke (PHX) 6th in 2000-01 (1/2/1, 12 pts, 8%)

Robert Luongo (FLA) 3rd in 2003-04 (6/3/6, 45 pts, 30%)

Niklas Bäckström (MIN) 3rd in 2008-09 (1/8/2, 31 pts, 20.67%)

Sergei Bobrovsky (CLB) 1st in 2012–13 (17/8/1, 110 pts, 73.33%)

Cory Schneider (NJD) 6th in 2015-16 (0/1/7, 10 pts, 6.67%)

Darcy Kuemper (ARI) T-5th in 2018-19 (0/2/3, 9 pts, 5.81%)

Carey Price (MTL) T-7 in 2018-19 (0/2/2, 8 pts, 5.16%)

Ilya Sorokin (NYI) 6th in 2021-22 (1/1/3, 11 pts, 6.88%)

And that’s it, except for a few others that got pity votes that don’t amount to 5%. (A shout out to the one GM who gave Chico his 1st place vote in first 3 years of the awards existence.)

Beezer is the king of pity votes with the best showing on a non-playoff team, three appearances and getting on this list as both a Ranger and a Panther. USA! USA! USA!

Burke is the only other player to appear twice and he does it as Whaler and Coyote. Congrats to him too!

Edit: Bob added, missed him until @Bleedred corrected me. (Oops.)

 

[Guttersniped]

Curtis Joseph is 7th all time in wins and not in the Hall of Fame.

Joseph actually has a better win% and twice the playoff wins. Won 454 games in 943 games and 63 playoff wins in 133 games. Joseph was a top 3 Vezina finalist 3 times - Luongo also 3 times. When Joseph retired in 2009 he was actually 4th all time in wins. Since Fluery, Lundqvist and Luongo passed him

This sort of what I mean... Luongo was better but not 1st ballot to not good enough to be in better. I don't care really...just doesn't make a lot of sense.

Edit: where I do care is Elias getting skipped for someone who may not even have been the best choice at his position or at least a debatable choice.

Joseph should be in the Hall of Fame. It’s the easiest for forwards to get in, it’s harder for defenseman and they just bar the door to almost everyone when it comes to goalies.

Luongo was one of the best goalies of his generation. Is Henrik the only goalie who deserves to be a 1st ballot HOFer? Fluery will probably get in on the 1st ballot too and Luongo was better.

I want more goalies in.

 

[Bleedred]

There’s one reason Luongo didn’t win the Vezina in 2003-04. The Panthers weren’t a playoff team. That’s a hard unbreakable rule.

Typically even a Vezina worthy performance by a non-playoff goalie gets a few pity votes but never near the top three. Luongo had one of the greatest goalie seasons of all time in 2003-04, and he didn’t come even remotely close to winning it that year.

Jim Carrey won his infamous Vezina in part because both the Sabres and the Devils missed the playoffs in 1995-96. It kills me that we missed that year because with Hasek out of the way Brodeur had an easier shot to win but no playoffs = 4th place.

The best showings by non-playoff goalies (with 5% of the vote as a cut-off) since the award started in 1981-82. (I put top 3 finishes in bold):

John Vanbiesbrouck (NYR) 6th in 1987-88 (1/2/1, 12 pts, 11.43%)

John Vanbiesbrouck (FLA) 2nd in 1993-94 (6/10/4, 64 pts, 49.23%)

John Vanbiesbrouck (FLA) T-5 in 1994-95 (1/1/3, 11 pts, 8.46%)

Sean Burke (HAR) T-8 in 1994-95 (0/2/1, 7 pts, 5.38%)

Martin Brodeur (NJD) in 4th in 1995-96 (4/3/2, 31 pts, 23.85%)

Dominik Hasek (BUF) at 8th in 1995-96 (1/1/1, 9 pts, 6.92%)

Sean Burke (PHX) at 6th in 2000-01 (1/2/1, 12 pts, 8%)

Robert Luongo (FLA) at 3rd in 2003-04 (6/3/6, 45 pts, 30%)

Niklas Bäckström (MIN) at 3rd in 2008-09 (1/8/2, 31 pts, 20.67%)

Cory Schneider (NJD) at 6th in 2015-16 (0/1/7, 10 pts, 6.67%)

Darcy Kuemper (ARI) T-5th in 2018-19 (0/2/3, 9 pts, 5.81%)

Carey Price (MTL) T-7 in 2018-19 (0/2/2, 8 pts, 5.16%)

Ilya Sorokin (NYI) 6th in 2021-22 (1/1/3, 11 pts, 6.88%)

And that’s it, except for a few others that got pity votes that don’t amount to 5%. (A shout out to the one GM who gave Chico his 1st place vote in first 3 years of the awards existence.)

Beezer is the king of pity votes with the best showing on a non-playoff team, three appearances and getting on this list as both a Ranger and a Panther. USA! USA! USA!

Burke is the only other player to appear twice and he does it as Whaler and Coyote. Congrats to him too!

Bobrovsky would go on to win the Vezina in 12-13 on a non-playoff team, but that was also a lockout shortened season of only 48 games.

I argued for the longest time that Brodeur is the 96 Vezina winner if we had just made the playoffs.

Finishing right in front of him in third place was Darren Puppa from the Tampa Bay Lightning team that got in the playoffs at our expense. I really believe Brodeur finishes 1st (with Jim Carey in 3rd) that year. Puppa would have missed the playoffs and we would have gotten in, so he probably goes to 4th place. In those days it was really hard to get a top-3 Vezina finalist spot on a non-playoff team, never mind a Vezina win. Luongo might have been one of the only top-3 Vezina finishes that year until Bobrovsky who would eventually go on to win it in 12-13 on a non-playoff team.

It's not like Osgood was gonna win it if we made the playoffs because he could have won it anyway with us not in the playoffs and he didn't.

When I look at Carey and Osgood, I could see Osgood winning it over Brodeur in 96 before Carey did. And like I said, Darren Puppa probably finishes in 4th because if we got into the playoffs on the last day of the season his team wouldn't have.

Assuming we win on the last day of the season, Brodeur ties Carey in wins for the year. Carey had 3 more shutouts and a significantly lower GAA than Brodeur did that year, but he also had a .906% save percentage (which was still considerably above average for that season) and a GSAA of +12.7 to Brodeur's .911% and a GSAA of +25.5 for the season. This was actually Brodeur's third best season in GSAA of his career behind 96-97 and 06-07.

Carey did play 71 games that year to Brodeur's 77, so I do think that Carey having over 70 games played helped him win it.

 

[njdevils1982]

Joseph should be in the Hall of Fame. It’s the easiest for forwards to get in, it’s harder for defenseman and they just bar the door to almost everyone when it comes to goalies.

Luongo was one of the best goalies of his generation. Is Henrik the only goalie who deserves to be a 1st ballot HOFer? Fluery will probably get in on the 1st ballot too and Luongo was better.

I want more goalies in.

the closest chico is getting into the hall is having his isles mask displayed at the entrance (among tons of other masks and a massive wall of pucks from all over) before you have to buy a ticket in.

the great hall inside is awesome as is the street view.....but entering the place is like a mall and a shitty chain restaurant food court.

chico would not approve of the eats

 

[Stephen Gionta]

The fact that Mogilny and Keith Tkachuk still aren't in the Hall is laughable.

Elias time will come. but I'd have Mogilny and Tkachuk getting in before him.

 

[Saugus]

the great hall inside is awesome as is the street view.....but entering the place is like a mall and a shitty chain restaurant food court.

chico would not approve of the eats

I was surprised by that when I visited a few years ago. Seems like a inauspicious place to have the Temple of Hockey.

I thought it would be a much grander building.

 

[njdevils1982]

I was surprised by that when I visited a few years ago. Seems like a inauspicious place to have the Temple of Hockey.

I thought it would be a much grander building.

it is grand as f*** from the street and the inside but with building of such age they are protected in some sort of way.

i think it can be a facade way (like at the ACC....i the northeast? is the old post office from horse carriage days.....and how much of the original was kept?

the hall is even more impressive....its old school...... love that the original cup and the retired bands from the the other versions are displayed in the former bank vault.

getting back to the mall thing....... toronto has an insane underground city (PATH) the whole core is connected with underground retail areas and coverage when it is winter if one wants...

is a bit much for some to navigate as the path doesnt necessarily the n/s , e/w of the roads

so ya.....all of toronto downtoen under street is connected .....it was bound to end up at the "temple" for the masses to enjoy

check out the maps


i'll save the history lesson of the leslie spit and the gardiner expressway for another night

 

[Guttersniped]

Bobrovsky would go on to win the Vezina in 12-13 on a non-playoff team, but that was also a lockout shortened season of only 48 games.

I argued for the longest time that Brodeur is the 96 Vezina winner if we had just made the playoffs.

Finishing right in front of him in third place was Darren Puppa from the Tampa Bay Lightning team that got in the playoffs at our expense. I really believe Brodeur finishes 1st (with Jim Carey in 3rd) that year. Puppa would have missed the playoffs and we would have gotten in, so he probably goes to 4th place. In those days it was really hard to get a top-3 Vezina finalist spot on a non-playoff team, never mind a Vezina win. Luongo might have been one of the only top-3 Vezina finishes that year until Bobrovsky who would eventually go on to win it in 12-13 on a non-playoff team.

It's not like Osgood was gonna win it if we made the playoffs because he could have won it anyway with us not in the playoffs and he didn't.

When I look at Carey and Osgood, I could see Osgood winning it over Brodeur in 96 before Carey did. And like I said, Darren Puppa probably finishes in 4th because if we got into the playoffs on the last day of the season his team wouldn't have.

Assuming we win on the last day of the season, Brodeur ties Carey in wins for the year. Carey had 3 more shutouts and a significantly lower GAA than Brodeur did that year, but he also had a .906% save percentage (which was still considerably above average for that season) and a GSAA of +12.7 to Brodeur's .911% and a GSAA of +25.5 for the season. This was actually Brodeur's third best season in GSAA of his career behind 96-97 and 06-07.

Carey did play 71 games that year to Brodeur's 77, so I do think that Carey having over 70 games played helped him win it.

Holy Shit, I thought the Blue Jackets were a playoff team that season lol.

Well in my defense Columbus was tied in points with two playoff teams and Bob had a lopsided winning record that gave him that a traditional Vezina winner vibe but damn, whoops.

 

[HBK27]

 

[Guttersniped]

Ah yes, nothing shakes things up in a more positive way like getting a worse coach.

 

[Camille the Eel]

Ah yes, nothing shakes things up in a more positive way like getting a worse coach.

Boston University connection. He also looks the part. And he’s Irish which will go down well in Beantown. But if you wanted confirmation that they were going into full rebuild, if not tank mode next season, the hiring of Quinn would provide it. He’s not a coach they hire if they are thinking any longer they can win now. He’s a guy to develop youngsters, like Ruff, by letting them go up and down the ice full tilt to hopefully develop their games. He’s a college coach. Which is exactly what he was at BU.