Speculation: Armchair GM 2024-25 Season, Craig Conroy's Can Do Calgary Flames

[Sparky93]

To me - Dylan Cozen's has the ability to become Jeff Carter 2.0, which is a very good player, but not an elite offensive talent/driver.

That's a guy you can absolutely win with though, and someone this team should have an interest in.

Could you win with him as your 1C though?

 

[HighLifeMan]

Could you win with him as your 1C though?

I wouldn't bet on it, no.

 

[Figgy44]

To me - Dylan Cozen's has the ability to become Jeff Carter 2.0, which is a very good player, but not an elite offensive talent/driver.

That's a guy you can absolutely win with though, and someone this team should have an interest in.

Agreed.

Typo, should read 2C. Lindholm's skills are that of a 2C. I think Cuzens potential is a high-end 2C to a low end 1C.

Serious question, why do you keep writing Cuzens?

Could you win with him as your 1C though?

We wouldn't be the first team to try with that archetype.

 

[Darth Vladar]

Serious question, why do you keep writing Cuzens?

Just becuz.


I’ll see myself out lol

 

[Volica]

And I’m not debating otherwise. The main principle of that post is completely reasonable. I don’t think any sane person would argue that young players often take time to hit their stride, regardless of talent (Jack Hughes first couple years also come to mind).

However, the implied comparison to Mackinnon gets quite dicey. Like, assuming 82 games in his rookie year, Cozens only averaged 44.75 points over his first four years, including a ‘breakout’ 68 point campaign. With the assumption above, he would have also missed significantly less games than MacKinnon.

During Mackinnon’s first four years, scoring was also on average .3-.4 goals lower per game than Cozens first four years.

I’m admittedly being a bit nitpicky here and the overall message is completely fine, but the implied comparison gets really messy and is really quite the hyperbole.

Expecting a player on Cozens trajectory to become a bonafide 1C with a change of scenery is incredibly hopeful.

I will say, I in no way, shape or form am saying Cozens is in the same stratosphere as MacKinnon. Or that their points are comparable

I’m just replying to the fact that it wasn’t always roses, rainbows and unicorns in the Nathan MacKinnon ascension to being on the best of this generation.

 

[Bounces R Way]

I want one of Misa or McQueen tbh. Desnoyers would also be acceptable. I have no idea what kind of center will be available the first time Calgary steps up to the draft podium but please take the best available. If I was Craig I would table whichever round picks he's got and try to trade up if there's a deal to be made.

Flames have drafted a potential 1D(Parekh) and 1G(duh-stin Wolf). Despite the mountain of empirical evidence against them the Flames are fully capable of drafting a 1C. One of these scouts surely has to know what a great first line center looks like, I refuse to believe otherwise.

 

[Darth Vladar]

I want one of Misa or McQueen tbh. Desnoyers would also be acceptable. I have no idea what kind of center will be available the first time Calgary steps up to the draft podium but please take the best available. If I was Craig I would table whichever round picks he's got and try to trade up if there's a deal to be made.

Flames have drafted a potential 1D(Parekh) and 1G(duh-stin Wolf). Despite the mountain of empirical evidence against them the Flames are fully capable of drafting a 1C. One of these scouts surely has to know what a great first line center looks like, I refuse to believe otherwise.

Milton Gästrin (MoDo - SHL) - 6’1”, 185 lbs, 31 GP, 14-21-35 (proj.) (Ranked #4 by Central Scouting among EU skaters)

Milton Gästrin - Stats, Contract, Salary & More

Bill Zonnon (Rouyn-Noranda - QMJHL) - 6’2”, 190 lbs, 68 GP, 36-58-94 (proj.) (Ranked #29 by Central Scouting among NA skaters)

Bill Zonnon - Stats, Contract, Salary & More

 

[Figgy44]

I will say, I in no way, shape or form am saying Cozens is in the same stratosphere as MacKinnon. Or that their points are comparable

I’m just replying to the fact that it wasn’t always roses, rainbows and unicorns in the Nathan MacKinnon ascension to being on the best of this generation.

This comment could also be taken into consideration about the patience required to do a scorched earth rebuild?

Avs had a lot of top picks for a while too.

 

[Volica]

This comment could also be taken into consideration about the patience required to do a scorched earth rebuild?

Avs had a lot of top picks for a while too.

Avs lucked out on MacKinnon and Makar.
Without those two, the Avs would still be a bottom feeder, they are an absolutely horrid drafting/developing franchise.

The same goes to our neighbors to the North.

I honestly look at clubs like Tampa, Dallas, Washington and Carolina as to how Calgary will get out of this rebuild.
Yes, all four of those teams drafted top 3 picks.
Yes, those top three picks play big parts of the clubs.
More importantly they continue to hit homeruns through amateur and professional scouting.

Sign/trade for guys that are undervalued. Draft and develop guys in your system until they're ready to make an impact and put in a place to succeed.

Look at Dallas or Washington. Their roster is essentially built on late firsts, second rounders, later round picks that absolutely hit; and getting a bunch of value players from other teams.

 

[Kranix]

This comment could also be taken into consideration about the patience required to do a scorched earth rebuild?

Avs had a lot of top picks for a while too.

It took basically 2.5-3 rebuild eras for them to win the cup. The Duchene/Landeskog bottoming-out era. Duchene was a highly coveted, hyped forward his whole junior career, went 3rd overall. Then they became somehow even worse 5 years later, and got Mackinnon, who took his sweet time living up to his selection. They had one fluke year with Patrick Roy getting them into the playoffs in 2014. However, despite accumulating Ryan O'Reilly in the 2nd round, Mikko Rantanen at #10, they had become historically bad by 2017, and in a bit of unimaginable luck(which is the main ingredient in a Stanley cup), with the best odds to win their draft lottery, they lost it, and still ended up with the best player in the draft, best defenseman of his generation falling to them at #4 (not #3, mind you, which seems to be the magic number minimum pick acceptable to truly "rebuild the right way," for some people). And then, it was still another 5 years before they won the cup.

But people here will still assure you this story of the Avalanche constitutes a "plan"

 

[Some Other Flame]

Without some lottery luck, the Flames are more likely to replicate the current Detroit Wings model than any true contender.

You need elite talent to win. Calgary has 1, maybe 2 elite players in the system in Wolf and Parekh. Doesn't matter how they get it, they need more. It's not enough.

 

[Volica]

Without some lottery luck, the Flames are more likely to replicate the current Detroit Wings model than any true contender.

You need elite talent to win. Calgary has 1, maybe 2 elite players in the system in Wolf and Parekh. Doesn't matter how they get it, they need more. It's not enough.

The wings had 4 top 6 picks in a row. If you can't get elite talent from the top end of the draft, like, what are we talking about here anymore?

Also, the Wings don't get enough hate because they used to be the standard of this, their drafting and development for the last 15 years has really been subpar.

Phil Hronek is probably the best player they drafted outside of the top 10 of a draft in the past 15 years. That says... that says a lot.

 

[Figgy44]

Avs lucked out on MacKinnon and Makar.
Without those two, the Avs would still be a bottom feeder, they are an absolutely horrid drafting/developing franchise.

The same goes to our neighbors to the North.

I honestly look at clubs like Tampa, Dallas, Washington and Carolina as to how Calgary will get out of this rebuild.
Yes, all four of those teams drafted top 3 picks.
Yes, those top three picks play big parts of the clubs.
More importantly they continue to hit homeruns through amateur and professional scouting.

Sign/trade for guys that are undervalued. Draft and develop guys in your system until they're ready to make an impact and put in a place to succeed.

Look at Dallas or Washington. Their roster is essentially built on late firsts, second rounders, later round picks that absolutely hit; and getting a bunch of value players from other teams.

Good examples. Washington had Alzner, Backstrom and Ovi, but didn't do multiple rebuild iterations. They just had to fine tune for a decade. NJD is the other team I can think of right now that is the same. SJS looks to be on the same path. Just one bottom out and then incremental increase. I assume Chicago on that path too. Stars blipped once for Heiskanen.

Avs and Edmonton had multiple iterations, same as Buffalo. Ducks I'm not sure what to say. They're technically on their first rebuild, but it's been 6 years and there's no end in sight to get out.

 

[Kranix]

The wings had 4 top 6 picks in a row. If you can't get elite talent from the top end of the draft, like, what are we talking about here anymore?

Also, the Wings don't get enough hate because they used to be the standard of this, their drafting and development for the last 15 years has really been subpar.

Phil Hronek is probably the best player they drafted outside of the top 10 of a draft in the past 15 years. That says... that says a lot.

It only "top 3" picks count in a rebuild

 

[Volica]

It only "top 3" picks count in a rebuild

We've finally unlocked the hockey meta rebuild phase of debate here.
Congratulations everyone. It's been quite the run

Look, don't get me wrong, we could use some top end drafted talent. Getting a franchise centre would go a long way for this organization that clearly hasn't had one in a very long time.

But I think the NHL constantly proves that there are multiple ways to skin a cat. Florida rebuilt forever, but it took trading for Tkachuk, trading for Reino, trading for Bennett, eating that miserable Bobrovsky contract for like 4 seasons for them to finally gain the traction in becoming not only champions but a legit contender.

Like, I'm going to bang this drum until the cows come home, it's value:

When you can take advantage of another team, you do it.
When someone hits free agency you think has another gear, you sign them.
When a trade is going to cost a beloved member of the franchise, but that makes you better, you do it.
You better draft, and draft good too. You can't have a draft that you don't get a quality player out of.

 

[Mobiandi]

2 years ago I thought the Wings were 5 years away from being 5 years away. Stevie Y has really struggled there

 

[Darth Vladar]

2 years ago I thought the Wings were 5 years away from being 5 years away. Stevie Y has really struggled there

I’m not sure what his window was, but the Wings are now in year six of the Yzerplan, and while the jury is still out on overall draft success (pretty hard to follow up what he did in Tampa), they’ve still managed to draft a handful of studs at every position, some of them already factoring into their success (i.e. Mo, Raymond, Arvidsson, Kasper), and a few more in the pipe (i.e. Wallinder, Cossa, Sandin-Pellika, Danielson), the team record has improved gradually every season, and they’re owners of the second best record in the NHL since December (next to Washington) at 14-4-1 (.763) and are presently in the last WC spot. Whether or not they expected it to take 5+ years, I’d argue that the Wings are a team to keep an eye on moving forward. They about to be scary good imho.

 

[Some Other Flame]

The wings had 4 top 6 picks in a row. If you can't get elite talent from the top end of the draft, like, what are we talking about here anymore?

Also, the Wings don't get enough hate because they used to be the standard of this, their drafting and development for the last 15 years has really been subpar.

Phil Hronek is probably the best player they drafted outside of the top 10 of a draft in the past 15 years. That says... that says a lot.

Well yeah, the Wings under Holland screwed up their drafting pretty bad. That'll tank & prolong any potential rebuild. But since Yzerman took over, they've nabbed Seider (6th), Raymond (4th), Edvinsson (6th), Kaspar (8th), & Danielson (9th). It's respectable for their positions. Problem is, despite having some brutal teams during that stretch, they never got any lottery luck. Like 2020, they were the worst team by a mile but ended up with the 4th over all because Ottawa (via San Jose), LA and NY leapfrogged them.

You mentioned their standard and foundation, but remember, it all started with a bevy of high picks starting with Yzerman fourth overall in '83. And a huge part of their drafting success during the 90's and early 2000's was financial - teams like Calgary basically eliminated their whole scouting departments due to costs. A lot easier to find diamonds with later picks when other teams can't afford or are too cheap to send scouts to Europe. That advantage doesn't exist anymore.

Anyway, the Dallas, Carolina, and even the Lightning comparisons don't work unless the Flames can also find a number one centre in the 2nd or 3rd round. But in order for that to work, the Flames might actually have to start drafting centres with their firsts, seconds, and thirds.

Going back 15 years to 2009, Calgary has had 15 firsts, 15 seconds, and 15 thirds since then. They've picked 4 goalies, 17 defencemen, 15 wingers, and just 9 centremen in that time frame - Max Reinhart, Markus Granlund, Mark Jankowski, Sean Monahan, Sam Bennett, Dillon Dube, Ilya Nikolaev, Connor Zary, and Topi Ronni. That's just awful honestly