Speculation: Armchair GM 2024-25 Season, Craig Conroy's Can Do Calgary Flames

[Volica]

Except a win streak really doesn’t either. We are 14th in points percentage currently, and it takes a massive jump to get just to 12th. For example, to supplant LA for the final division spot we would need to go on a 9 game win streak just to hit their points percentage which is already a lot, but then also have to maintain that percentage the rest of the season which people never imagine when they state that. A better way to look at it is we would have to go 26-11-1 from today on to finish higher than their current points percentage. This is what people don’t understand about “it just taking a streak”, you need to have the streak+ the level of play afterwards to make it work.

On the flip side, for people hoping we salvage our pick from Montreal (we won’t), we would have to go realistically 13-19-5 (tried throwing a realistic amount of OT losses in this example) the rest of the season, or practically only win every third game from here on out. That record JUST gets us to the 10th ranked win percentage. That means for the rest of the year we need a .420 winning percentage, which is the 3rd worst in the NHL. There are no amount of trades that make us Chicago or San Jose caliber team that we’d need to be to get to that. The losing streak required to play at our current level of play after and still finish just in the bottom 10 would be a 10 game losing streak, with no OT losses thrown in there.

For whoever doesn’t want to read that blurb and math, long story short is streaks don’t actually effect it as much as you think, because even after that streak you then just have to be a better/worse team for the rest of the year too.

You’re looking top down, look down up. Calgary is sitting with a 3 point lead on Vancouver and St Louis; both teams have games in hand. With one win last night we’re already seeing separation from teams like the Kraken, who are nearing a point of being done already, and have three games more than Calgary. I’m not talking about catching the Pacific leaders. Because teams in the Chase are widely inconsistent, it’s why a win streak would create space behind us.

I’m dead serious when I say that if we win two or three more games in a row, the West’s playoff picture might actually be pretty much set like the East’s was a couple seasons ago in like January.

 

[Anglesmith]

You’re looking top down, look down up. Calgary is sitting with a 3 point lead on Vancouver and St Louis; both teams have games in hand. With one win last night we’re already seeing separation from teams like the Kraken, who are nearing a point of being done already, and have three games more than Calgary. I’m not talking about catching the Pacific leaders. Because teams in the Chase are widely inconsistent, it’s why a win streak would create space behind us.

I’m dead serious when I say that if we win two or three more games in a row, the West’s playoff picture might actually be pretty much set like the East’s was a couple seasons ago in like January.

Small correction to the syntax for clarity: the Flames have the games in hand on Vancouver and St. Louis.

 

[Mobiandi]

Win 3 in a row and we pass the Avs

 

[RasmusAndersson]

This organization is backwards. If the vets want to add, then be a top ten team.
28 teams could still make the playoffs. The gulf between us and teams like Vegas, Winnipeg and LA is huge.

Signing a number 3 defencemen like Rasmus from 30-37 at 9 million a year is the kind of move that keeps you in the 10-12 place in the west year after year. He’s a valuable asset and should be cashed in.

Last year I wanted to target Kulich, who is on the verge of breaking out. This year Cal Ritchie. Those are realistic trades but we are so focused on squeaking into the playoffs and things will never change with this organization.

Time to be progressive; but we won’t be.

My brother and I have been saying what’s best for the Flames is an injury to Naz or Wolf. The current trend is not looking good. Giving up our earliest pick to MTL and not making the playoffs is such a Flames thing to do. Like the Cleveland Browns being where QBs careers die. Can we just once pick in the top 3.

I honestly do not understand these posts at all. How are people possibly unsatisfied with everything Conroy and the team has done the past 18 months? How can you say this organization is backwards? Conroy litetally traded 7 top of the roster players (Lindy Mang Toffoli Hanifin Tanev Zad Markstrom) and completely re-stocked our prospect pool and picks. Whether you want to call it a fast rebuild or retool, he traded off 7 of our 9 most valuable assets over 25 that had decent trade value (the others being Weegar and Rasmus).

He completely restocked our defensive prospect pool in ONE deadline and offseason. Parekh, Mews, Brzustewicz all look like potential top-4 RD. We had 2 firsts last year, have 2 this year, and 2 next year. We’ve seen our elite goalie prospect turn into a Calder candidate and a top-5/10 goalie in the league at age 23 (5th in the league in SV%). Our winger depth is absolutely stacked long term with Zary, Coronato, Honzek, Basha, Gridin, Suniev (not to mention Pospy and Sharangovich). Zary and Coronato have taken big steps this year and look like legit top-6 pieces for years to come.

Our D has been very strong this year despite only having 3 NHL regulars. Credit to Huska for that.

Obviously we still have a glaring hole or two at C long term, but how can people possibly complain or say we’re a backwards organization? Conroy has done literally everything he possibly could to turn this team around. Adding a guy like Cozens or Kulich at the expense of Rasmus is not going to be what makes this team a contender in the future. We need multiple great drafts, hitting on picks in the first two rounds, good asset management, and continued development of our high end young guys. And Conroy has done everything he possibly can to make me trust that he has the vision. People need to trust Conroy and stop playing into the “Flames are eternally screwed because we never get a top pick” narrative. Conroy is different

 

[Figgy44]

I honestly do not understand these posts at all. How are people possibly unsatisfied with everything Conroy and the team has done the past 18 months? How can you say this organization is backwards? Conroy litetally traded 7 top of the roster players (Lindy Mang Toffoli Hanifin Tanev Zad Markstrom) and completely re-stocked our prospect pool and picks. Whether you want to call it a fast rebuild or retool, he traded off 7 of our 9 most valuable assets over 25 that had decent trade value (the others being Weegar and Rasmus).

He completely restocked our defensive prospect pool in ONE deadline and offseason. Parekh, Mews, Brzustewicz all look like potential top-4 RD. We had 2 firsts last year, have 2 this year, and 2 next year. We’ve seen our elite goalie prospect turn into a Calder candidate and a top-5/10 goalie in the league at age 23 (5th in the league in SV%). Our winger depth is absolutely stacked long term with Zary, Coronato, Honzek, Basha, Gridin, Suniev (not to mention Pospy and Sharangovich). Zary and Coronato have taken big steps this year and look like legit top-6 pieces for years to come.

Our D has been very strong this year despite only having 3 NHL regulars. Credit to Huska for that.

Obviously we still have a glaring hole or two at C long term, but how can people possibly complain or say we’re a backwards organization? Conroy has done literally everything he possibly could to turn this team around. Adding a guy like Cozens or Kulich at the expense of Rasmus is not going to be what makes this team a contender in the future. We need multiple great drafts, hitting on picks in the first two rounds, good asset management, and continued development of our high end young guys. And Conroy has done everything he possibly can to make me trust that he has the vision. People need to trust Conroy and stop playing into the “Flames are eternally screwed because we never get a top pick” narrative. Conroy is different

Perhaps in their eyes, since we don't have a single top 3 pick added to this rebuild, in their eyes it's a huge leap in the right direction, but still horribly incomplete? I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth. I'm just guessing.

But many of the rest of us have been part of the debate saying that having top 3 picks isn't a guarantee of anything (ie: see Buffalo, CBJ, NYR vs Vegas)

 

[crackdown44]

Perhaps in their eyes, since we don't have a single top 3 pick added to this rebuild, in their eyes it's a huge leap in the right direction, but still horribly incomplete? I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth. I'm just guessing.

But many of the rest of us have been part of the debate saying that having top 3 picks isn't a guarantee of anything (ie: see Buffalo, CBJ, NYR vs Vegas)

Yeah but that’s the thing. Conroy did everything in his power to get the team a high pick this year, like you trade your 1C, starting goalie and two top 4 D. You don’t sign anyone of note in free agency. Then your 7th round rookie goalie decides he’s just one of the best in the NHL and your team is somehow better than last year

I think we all wanted/expected a high pick this year but this ride is fun too, and I don’t think it’s fair to blame conroy for not committing to a rebuild when he literally did

 

[Figgy44]

Yeah but that’s the thing. Conroy did everything in his power to get the team a high pick this year, like you trade your 1C, starting goalie and two top 4 D. You don’t sign anyone of note in free agency. Then your 7th round rookie goalie decides he’s just one of the best in the NHL and your team is somehow better than last year

I think we all wanted/expected a high pick this year but this ride is fun too, and I don’t think it’s fair to blame conroy for not committing to a rebuild when he literally did

Yep. The fun is kinda like 2015. That run reignited my excitement for the Flames. If we were in Buffalo style turmoil, I'd probably wouldn't be as interested in them as much.

Same at that year, we were supposed to languish and be a favourite for CMD. Then JG (RIP) came out of nowhere and we were playoff bound).

Agreed we can't blame Conroy, but it's not like it's beneficial for Conroy to break the team's kneecaps for doing well either.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

I honestly do not understand these posts at all. How are people possibly unsatisfied with everything Conroy and the team has done the past 18 months? How can you say this organization is backwards? Conroy litetally traded 7 top of the roster players (Lindy Mang Toffoli Hanifin Tanev Zad Markstrom) and completely re-stocked our prospect pool and picks. Whether you want to call it a fast rebuild or retool, he traded off 7 of our 9 most valuable assets over 25 that had decent trade value (the others being Weegar and Rasmus).

He completely restocked our defensive prospect pool in ONE deadline and offseason. Parekh, Mews, Brzustewicz all look like potential top-4 RD. We had 2 firsts last year, have 2 this year, and 2 next year. We’ve seen our elite goalie prospect turn into a Calder candidate and a top-5/10 goalie in the league at age 23 (5th in the league in SV%). Our winger depth is absolutely stacked long term with Zary, Coronato, Honzek, Basha, Gridin, Suniev (not to mention Pospy and Sharangovich). Zary and Coronato have taken big steps this year and look like legit top-6 pieces for years to come.

Our D has been very strong this year despite only having 3 NHL regulars. Credit to Huska for that.

Obviously we still have a glaring hole or two at C long term, but how can people possibly complain or say we’re a backwards organization? Conroy has done literally everything he possibly could to turn this team around. Adding a guy like Cozens or Kulich at the expense of Rasmus is not going to be what makes this team a contender in the future. We need multiple great drafts, hitting on picks in the first two rounds, good asset management, and continued development of our high end young guys. And Conroy has done everything he possibly can to make me trust that he has the vision. People need to trust Conroy and stop playing into the “Flames are eternally screwed because we never get a top pick” narrative. Conroy is different

I’ve never said that Conroy is doing a bad job. He’s doing a great job.
I just think signing Rasmus, who is a good but not great defencemen, to a deal with 70 million doesn’t make sense.
RD (and G) is the one area on the team where I’m really high on the prospects (Parekh, Brewski and possibly Mews).

What this team is lacking is two impact forwards. If they get that, I think this can be a deadly team. Trading for players like Ritchie or Kulich could give us those top liners we lack. There is no obvious path forward but this team still needs to play the long game for a few more seasons.

Sometimes it takes vision and tough decisions and I don’t think signing Rasmus long term is the right move for this team.

 

[joescores]

I would also deal Rasmus for the right package. This team needs new additions, he is one of a few trade pawns that can bring back value alas Lindholm...

 

[FLAMESFAN]

If we can actually make the playoffs, I'm all for giving Montreal that 1st.
Finish outside and I'm pissed.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Yeah but that’s the thing. Conroy did everything in his power to get the team a high pick this year, like you trade your 1C, starting goalie and two top 4 D. You don’t sign anyone of note in free agency. Then your 7th round rookie goalie decides he’s just one of the best in the NHL and your team is somehow better than last year

I think we all wanted/expected a high pick this year but this ride is fun too, and I don’t think it’s fair to blame conroy for not committing to a rebuild when he literally did

Exactly this. Conroy did literally everything he could to kickstart a full scale retool/rebuild and now Wolf has almost single-handedly carried us into a playoff spot. Nothing else Conroy could or should have done since he became GM

I’ve never said that Conroy is doing a bad job. He’s doing a great job.
I just think signing Rasmus, who is a good but not great defencemen, to a deal with 70 million doesn’t make sense.
RD (and G) is the one area on the team where I’m really high on the prospects (Parekh, Brewski and possibly Mews).

What this team is lacking is two impact forwards. If they get that, I think this can be a deadly team. Trading for players like Ritchie or Kulich could give us those top liners we lack. There is no obvious path forward but this team still needs to play the long game for a few more seasons.

Sometimes it takes vision and tough decisions and I don’t think signing Rasmus long term is the right move for this team.

Ya that’s fair, I’d also entertain trading Rasmus for sure for the right package of futures. I just didn’t agree with how you said that our management is backwards and how it was classic flames not to be proactive when Conroy is doing everything right

 

[Some Other Flame]

Conroy's really not going to weaponize all that cap space is he

 

[MakeCgyGreatAgain]

I honestly do not understand these posts at all. How are people possibly unsatisfied with everything Conroy and the team has done the past 18 months? How can you say this organization is backwards? Conroy litetally traded 7 top of the roster players (Lindy Mang Toffoli Hanifin Tanev Zad Markstrom) and completely re-stocked our prospect pool and picks. Whether you want to call it a fast rebuild or retool, he traded off 7 of our 9 most valuable assets over 25 that had decent trade value (the others being Weegar and Rasmus).

He completely restocked our defensive prospect pool in ONE deadline and offseason. Parekh, Mews, Brzustewicz all look like potential top-4 RD. We had 2 firsts last year, have 2 this year, and 2 next year. We’ve seen our elite goalie prospect turn into a Calder candidate and a top-5/10 goalie in the league at age 23 (5th in the league in SV%). Our winger depth is absolutely stacked long term with Zary, Coronato, Honzek, Basha, Gridin, Suniev (not to mention Pospy and Sharangovich). Zary and Coronato have taken big steps this year and look like legit top-6 pieces for years to come.

Our D has been very strong this year despite only having 3 NHL regulars. Credit to Huska for that.

Obviously we still have a glaring hole or two at C long term, but how can people possibly complain or say we’re a backwards organization? Conroy has done literally everything he possibly could to turn this team around. Adding a guy like Cozens or Kulich at the expense of Rasmus is not going to be what makes this team a contender in the future. We need multiple great drafts, hitting on picks in the first two rounds, good asset management, and continued development of our high end young guys. And Conroy has done everything he possibly can to make me trust that he has the vision. People need to trust Conroy and stop playing into the “Flames are eternally screwed because we never get a top pick” narrative. Conroy is different

You don’t understand posts like this? I’ve been a fan of the Flames for 30 years. In all that time we’ve never been a true cup contender. We’ve never had a top line centre. Never been an elite team. So 30 years of always being the average team fighting to barely get in or not. 30 years of the same old same old. Most the posters on here have not been a fan as long as I have. I’ve got 30 years of frustration of trying the same thing and never getting anywhere. Seeing other teams have the lows that lead them to be cup contenders (Colorado, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Florida, Edmonton all suffered and built their teams up) Knowing if we had actually done the burn it to the ground and build it back up, we could have been an elite team several times over in all those years. We haven’t progressed at all. We’ve never been a consistent cup contender. There’s been the odd year of being legitimately in a playoff spot but what have we got to show for it? Getting bounced in the playoffs by teams built the right way. The run in 04 was an awesome season to be a fan. But honestly it really hurt our future. Since then management has held the just get in to a playoff spot and it can happen. But nope. It has never worked again. So yeah you don’t get posts like that because you haven’t been a long suffering fan sick of the same old same old. I want to build a winning team and that means drafting a legit top centre and building around a star player or two. We have a team of role players and that’s it. The supporting cast without the important leads. That’s all we are and that’s pretty much all we’ve been since 89. Some fans have been saying we need to reward the guys for fighting and be buyers or at least not sell. That’s never ever done anything for this team and most of the time we ended up out of the playoffs completely or bounced in the first round. A team should never be rewarded for being average. Participation ribbons don’t make you better.

 

[Volica]

Conroy's really not going to weaponize all that cap space is he

I mean, looks like cap isn’t as valuable this year as prior. Chicago with a 3rd and giving up Hall to take almost 5 mil in cap for Rantanen.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

You don’t understand posts like this? I’ve been a fan of the Flames for 30 years. In all that time we’ve never been a true cup contender. We’ve never had a top line centre. Never been an elite team. So 30 years of always being the average team fighting to barely get in or not. 30 years of the same old same old. Most the posters on here have not been a fan as long as I have. I’ve got 30 years of frustration of trying the same thing and never getting anywhere. Seeing other teams have the lows that lead them to be cup contenders (Colorado, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Florida, Edmonton all suffered and built their teams up) Knowing if we had actually done the burn it to the ground and build it back up, we could have been an elite team several times over in all those years. We haven’t progressed at all. We’ve never been a consistent cup contender. There’s been the odd year of being legitimately in a playoff spot but what have we got to show for it? Getting bounced in the playoffs by teams built the right way. The run in 04 was an awesome season to be a fan. But honestly it really hurt our future. Since then management has held the just get in to a playoff spot and it can happen. But nope. It has never worked again. So yeah you don’t get posts like that because you haven’t been a long suffering fan sick of the same old same old. I want to build a winning team and that means drafting a legit top centre and building around a star player or two. We have a team of role players and that’s it. The supporting cast without the important leads. That’s all we are and that’s pretty much all we’ve been since 89. Some fans have been saying we need to reward the guys for fighting and be buyers or at least not sell. That’s never ever done anything for this team and most of the time we ended up out of the playoffs completely or bounced in the first round. A team should never be rewarded for being average. Participation ribbons don’t make you better.

Well I’ve been a fan for about 22 years now and feel your pain, but what I’m trying to say is that Conroy DID do everything in his power to drag us into full rebuild territory. He traded 7 top of roster guys in the span of one year! 7! Can you even find another example of a rebuilt/retool/whatever you want to call it with a bigger fire sale than that? Like come on, give Conroy and our current management some credit here.

And now you’re out here saying you hope Naz or Wolf gets hurt lol. I understand being frustrated by our lack of long term success, but I just don’t agree with letting that frustration cloud judgment about the current direction of the team. After suffering though mediocre years and GM’s that would make bad trades and horrible UFA signings, we finally have a guy that sold off tons of assets, kickstarted a rebuild, and accumulated tons of picks/prospects.

Hopefully one of these years all the pieces fall into place and we end up in a position to draft a 1C, and I agree we definitely shouldn’t be buyers because on paper we’re a clear bottom-5/10 team imo. But I just don’t get all the negativity when it finally feels like we have savvy management.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

Conroy's really not going to weaponize all that cap space is he

Its worth noting that the Flames only have one retention spot - I forgot they retained salary in the Markstrom deal.

Could be a better opportunity that comes along, maybe better than a 3rd.

 

[Kranix]

You don’t understand posts like this? I’ve been a fan of the Flames for 30 years. In all that time we’ve never been a true cup contender. We’ve never had a top line centre. Never been an elite team. So 30 years of always being the average team fighting to barely get in or not. 30 years of the same old same old. Most the posters on here have not been a fan as long as I have. I’ve got 30 years of frustration of trying the same thing and never getting anywhere. Seeing other teams have the lows that lead them to be cup contenders (Colorado, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Florida, Edmonton all suffered and built their teams up) Knowing if we had actually done the burn it to the ground and build it back up, we could have been an elite team several times over in all those years. We haven’t progressed at all. We’ve never been a consistent cup contender. There’s been the odd year of being legitimately in a playoff spot but what have we got to show for it? Getting bounced in the playoffs by teams built the right way. The run in 04 was an awesome season to be a fan. But honestly it really hurt our future. Since then management has held the just get in to a playoff spot and it can happen. But nope. It has never worked again. So yeah you don’t get posts like that because you haven’t been a long suffering fan sick of the same old same old. I want to build a winning team and that means drafting a legit top centre and building around a star player or two. We have a team of role players and that’s it. The supporting cast without the important leads. That’s all we are and that’s pretty much all we’ve been since 89. Some fans have been saying we need to reward the guys for fighting and be buyers or at least not sell. That’s never ever done anything for this team and most of the time we ended up out of the playoffs completely or bounced in the first round. A team should never be rewarded for being average. Participation ribbons don’t make you better.

tldr, but I did skim to see the usual buzzwords like "legit top centre." A TSN-created fantasy that fans buy into. I think you typed it at least 5 times.

You're conveniently ignoring the Flames bottoming-out in 2013 and drafting high the next few years including being a bottom-5 team in the Matthews lottery, and drafting Tkachuk 6th.

Can you explain why you are leaving this period in Flames history out?

 

[joescores]

You don’t understand posts like this? I’ve been a fan of the Flames for 30 years. In all that time we’ve never been a true cup contender. We’ve never had a top line centre. Never been an elite team. So 30 years of always being the average team fighting to barely get in or not. 30 years of the same old same old. Most the posters on here have not been a fan as long as I have. I’ve got 30 years of frustration of trying the same thing and never getting anywhere. Seeing other teams have the lows that lead them to be cup contenders (Colorado, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Florida, Edmonton all suffered and built their teams up) Knowing if we had actually done the burn it to the ground and build it back up, we could have been an elite team several times over in all those years. We haven’t progressed at all. We’ve never been a consistent cup contender. There’s been the odd year of being legitimately in a playoff spot but what have we got to show for it? Getting bounced in the playoffs by teams built the right way. The run in 04 was an awesome season to be a fan. But honestly it really hurt our future. Since then management has held the just get in to a playoff spot and it can happen. But nope. It has never worked again. So yeah you don’t get posts like that because you haven’t been a long suffering fan sick of the same old same old. I want to build a winning team and that means drafting a legit top centre and building around a star player or two. We have a team of role players and that’s it. The supporting cast without the important leads. That’s all we are and that’s pretty much all we’ve been since 89. Some fans have been saying we need to reward the guys for fighting and be buyers or at least not sell. That’s never ever done anything for this team and most of the time we ended up out of the playoffs completely or bounced in the first round. A team should never be rewarded for being average. Participation ribbons don’t make you better.

Is that you, Robert?

Conroy's really not going to weaponize all that cap space is he

That Chicago fudger of a GM is not a good poker player..Timining is everything. Connie has to play that chip very close to or on the TDL.

 

[Kranix]

Is that you, Robert?


That Chicago fudger of a GM is not a good poker player..Timining is everything. Connie has to play that chip very close to or on the TDL.

PADDY! Conroy should have traded for tage thompson before puck drop the other night paddy

 

[Some Other Flame]

I mean, looks like cap isn’t as valuable this year as prior. Chicago with a 3rd and giving up Hall to take almost 5 mil in cap for Rantanen.

With the cap going up significantly in the next couple of years, it's not going to be. But an extra 3rd is still better than nothing.

Its worth noting that the Flames only have one retention spot - I forgot they retained salary in the Markstrom deal.

Could be a better opportunity that comes along, maybe better than a 3rd.

Teams have 3 retention spots

 

[MakeCgyGreatAgain]

tldr, but I did skim to see the usual buzzwords like "legit top centre." A TSN-created fantasy that fans buy into. I think you typed it at least 5 times.

You're conveniently ignoring the Flames bottoming-out in 2013 and drafting high the next few years including being a bottom-5 team in the Matthews lottery, and drafting Tkachuk 6th.

Can you explain why you are leaving this period in Flames history out?

I’m not ignoring those years. If you actually watched we won meaningless games that dropped us out of the top 3 in those years. A win against Nashville got us Sam Bennett instead of Draisatl. Flames have never picked in the top 3 ever. That’s a problem. Because top 3 is where the best players get drafted. I’m entitled to my beliefs and you can have your own. But after 30 years of being a fan I’m frustrated with the same shit.

 

[Sparky93]

I’m not ignoring those years. If you actually watched we won meaningless games that dropped us out of the top 3 in those years. A win against Nashville got us Sam Bennett instead of Draisatl. Flames have never picked in the top 3 ever. That’s a problem. Because top 3 is where the best players get drafted. I’m entitled to my beliefs and you can have your own. But after 30 years of being a fan I’m frustrated with the same shit.

You're assuming the Flames wouldn't have picked Bennett regardless. I remember them being pretty much a coin toss, heading up to the draft, but I could be mistaken.

 

[Some Other Flame]

If I remember correctly, the Flames were super high on Reinhart at the time, to the point where they might have taken him 1st overall if they had the chance.

But yeah, Flames history is littered with them shooting themselves in the foot. Like Begin getting a hat trick at the end of 2013 to push the Flames into 6th. All of the 2014-2015 season. This season. So it goes

 

[Lunatik]

With the cap going up significantly in the next couple of years, it's not going to be. But an extra 3rd is still better than nothing.

What does that have to do with this? Rantanen is a pending UFA

 

[Ace Rimmer]

Teams have 3 retention spots

Even better. Makes sense though, retain on pending UFAs Kuzmenko and Mantha, except...

(also nice to see Cunningham's law at work)