Are we heading in the right direction? 2025 Version

[Sorinth]

What are you replaying to ? The post you're answering to mentions that nobody can win by just tanking, not even Pittsburgh. But, for example, you're bringing up Florida who acquired their second best forward through trading Huberdeau and built up their whole team around the best center in the Eastern Conference who they drafted second OA. It doesn't pass the sniff test. Even less so if you're bringing up a team with Makar, MacKinnon and Landeskog. "Tanking" not only allows you to draft these superstars. Its a process of asset accumulation. You trade a roster player like Steve Downie for the pick needed to draft Vasilevski. You draft third and trade that player for Sergachev. You need a whole second line worth of spots, allowing you to pair up young players like Palat, Johnson and Kucherov together.

A couple high picks doesn't equal tanking.

 

[Kennerback]

Getting Dach from Chicago was a gamble and HuGo have been losing that gamble. If it was only hockey related we could find a way to make it work, perhaps moving him to wing. The deal would not look half bad. But the problem is all about his health.

I don't even quite understand why he keeps getting injured all the time. We can't really pencil him because there's no way to know if he can stay healthy for any length of time.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

I think the Habs see through the Dach experiment as there are no good options for a 2C that fit the Habs longterm window.

One more year of seeiif Dach can get past the injury issues. Then next offseason determine next steps.

It also gives Hage a year of development.

There are too many desperate teams in need of a 2C. Habs should not be desperate and make an unforced error.

 

[Andrei79]

A couple high picks doesn't equal tanking.

Florida who picked top 3 4 out of 5 years, including the very best center in the whole 16 team conference, and Colorado who were led by two almost generational high picks drafted during abysmal seasons, including a historically bad one, are not good supporting evidence to the initial point.

 

[Paradoxe]

Many talk about how Dach is a disappointment, but if we can get something out of him in a trade like we did for Barron, aren't we going in the right direction once more and get a flip to bounce back on the right track??

 

[Sorinth]

Florida who picked top 3 4 out of 5 years, including the very best center in the whole 16 team conference, and Colorado who were led by two almost generational high picks drafted during abysmal seasons, including a historically bad one, are not good supporting evidence to the initial point.

Florida also made the playoffs in between drafting Hubredeau and Barkov. Is it really tanking if you yo-yo between making the playoffs and being at the bottom? Florida pretty much only tanked in the summer 2010, they had the 3rd OA (Gudbranson) and traded Horton & Ballard for a couple of extra 1sts in June setting themselves up for a crappy 2010-2011 season where they got Hubredeau. That's really the only year they really sold good players for picks/prospects.

Being bad or being inconsistent doesn't mean you are tanking. And the quality of the player you get with a top pick doesn't say anything about whether you were tanking or not so it's irrelevant how good Barkov is, if they had gotten Drouin instead of Barkov it doesn't change whether they tried to tank or not. If you actually look at what happened the year they got Barkov the year after making the playoffs, it wasn't that they tore that team down by selling or letting go their good players to get a high draft pick, what actually happened is a bunch of their top players got seriously injured so they ended up sucking.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Many talk about how Dach is a disappointment, but if we can get something out of him in a trade like we did for Barron, aren't we going in the right direction once more and get a flip to bounce back on the right track??

We're going in the right direction whether Dach pans out or not. And I don't think he's going to pan out now. I think he's cooked.

 

[CzarDemidov]

In Chicago he switched between wing and center as well so unless you have the breakdown of which games he was center then it doesn't disprove anything. He had good and bad stretches in Chicago.

Did he play wing during his so-called good stretches? How many games?

I looked up his game by game stats, he was listed as C consistently. He took more than 5 FOs in every game of his 2nd and 3rd season with CHI. So when did he play well and play winger?

 

[Paradoxe]

We're going in the right direction whether Dach pans out or not. And I don't think he's going to pan out now. I think he's cooked.

That's my whole point. Now we should focus on what we can get from him to keep our objective on par.

 

[Hoochi Papa]

That's my whole point. Now we should focus on what we can get from him to keep our objective on par.

They might as well keep him and see if they can reinvent him as a third-line winger. His value is at an all-time low, so he'd fetch ~4-5th round value as a throw-in piece in a trade. Dach didn't meet our lofty expectations, but he could still be useful in a diminished role.

 

[Paradoxe]

They might as well keep him and see if they can reinvent him as a third-line winger. His value is at an all-time low, so he'd fetch ~4-5th round value as a throw-in piece in a trade. Dach didn't meet our lofty expectations, but he could still be useful in a diminished role.

I do not see him in a defensive duty tho.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Can’t see how anyone would vote no in this. Youngest team in the PO, all younger players taking a big step. Couple offseason moves (2C, fire Matheson into the sun) and I don’t see how we don’t continue forward

I am glad some of you are not in control of the team. Admit we are heading in the right direction, but then want to fire one of top 3 dmen into the sun.

You giving lessons on how to make sure we are no longer trending in the right direction?

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Not if they keep going with that D core. I absolutely love Hutson but he doesnt have the acumen to be a no 1 dman. He's more of a no 2 / PP wizard.

Someone like Shea Weber who can munch big minutes. Slavin. Forsling. Seider. Sanderson. Morrissey.

Maybe we can hope Reinbacher become that but I doubt it.

Hutson can’t, buy Morrissey can. Haha fun times on hf as usual

 

[Scriptor]

Are we heading in the right direction?

The question should rather betas the VW add song goes, "Are you having any fun?"

 

[Andrei79]

Florida also made the playoffs in between drafting Hubredeau and Barkov. Is it really tanking if you yo-yo between making the playoffs and being at the bottom? Florida pretty much only tanked in the summer 2010, they had the 3rd OA (Gudbranson) and traded Horton & Ballard for a couple of extra 1sts in June setting themselves up for a crappy 2010-2011 season where they got Hubredeau. That's really the only year they really sold good players for picks/prospects.

Being bad or being inconsistent doesn't mean you are tanking. And the quality of the player you get with a top pick doesn't say anything about whether you were tanking or not so it's irrelevant how good Barkov is, if they had gotten Drouin instead of Barkov it doesn't change whether they tried to tank or not. If you actually look at what happened the year they got Barkov the year after making the playoffs, it wasn't that they tore that team down by selling or letting go their good players to get a high draft pick, what actually happened is a bunch of their top players got seriously injured so they ended up sucking.

What actually happened to Florida was 2012 was a complete fluke. They simply came back down to earth the following two years, unless you're going to try to argue that their solid core of Weiss, Fleischmann, Versteeg and Campbell had more to offer. You have to be an absolutely terrible team to finish bottom 3 4 out of 5 years. Barkov was a second overall pick by the way. They're not in any position to draft Barkov if they aren't that terrible, that's quite an important detail. If you don't like the term tanking, then we can say they were so bad and had such an awful roster that they tanked in all but name, the end result was exactly the same. No amount of mental gymnastic will result in concluding that Barkov, Mackinnon, Makar, Landeskog and the Huberdeau trade weren't absolutely essential to those cups, if not the basis for them. This is what the argument was about, the core of both teams were built through high picks.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

That's my whole point. Now we should focus on what we can get from him to keep our objective on par.

We can't get anything for him on the market. He has no value.

We can play him and hope he bounces back. My expectations are very low.

 

[Kennerback]

Paraphrasing Brian Burke, this team needs to acquire more big players with "pugnacity, truculence, testosterone, and belligerence”.

 

[Sorinth]

Did he play wing during his so-called good stretches? How many games?

I looked up his game by game stats, he was listed as C consistently. He took more than 5 FOs in every game of his 2nd and 3rd season with CHI. So when did he play well and play winger?

Well there were articles like this which although behind a paywall the title alone tells you all you need to know.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2022/03/10/kirby-dach-gets-another-run-on-the-wing-for-the-chicago-blackhawks-but-emphasizes-he-prefers-playing-center/

But you tell me if his good stretches were at wing or center because you were the one who brought his Chicago time up as evidence.

 

[Kennerback]

I’m stoked about the direction. Though some things look better than others.
The Dach experiment has been a deception though it’s not over. Someone needs to give Newhook a hockey stick this summer so he can work on his shot, stickhandling and passing. Also not over but not a big fan. Not a fan of Barron but they kind of saved that by spinning him into Carrier. Despite the sleepless nights he’s given us, Matheson has been a net positive.

 

[CzarDemidov]

Well there were articles like this which although behind a paywall the title alone tells you all you need to know.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2022/03/10/kirby-dach-gets-another-run-on-the-wing-for-the-chicago-blackhawks-but-emphasizes-he-prefers-playing-center/

But you tell me if his good stretches were at wing or center because you were the one who brought his Chicago time up as evidence.

I said his best stretch came besides Suzuki.

He’s a failure of a 3OA otherwise. His time with CHI was a laughably bad span and they did very well to get a 13OA from Kent Hughes for their troubles.

 

[Sorinth]

I said his best stretch came besides Suzuki.

He’s a failure of a 3OA otherwise. His time with CHI was a laughably bad span and they did very well to get a 13OA from Kent Hughes for their troubles.

And it was shown that his best stretch was actually after his time with Suzuki when he was moved back to center.

You then wanted to use his time in Chicago to prove that he struggles at center. Which is both irrelevant since it has no bearing on his "best stretch", and unless you can show he did much better when used at wing in Chicago doesn't even support the claim that's he's better at wing then center.

 

[Sorinth]

What actually happened to Florida was 2012 was a complete fluke. They simply came back down to earth the following two years, unless you're going to try to argue that their solid core of Weiss, Fleischmann, Versteeg and Campbell had more to offer. You have to be an absolutely terrible team to finish bottom 3 4 out of 5 years. Barkov was a second overall pick by the way. They're not in any position to draft Barkov if they aren't that terrible, that's quite an important detail. If you don't like the term tanking, then we can say they were so bad and had such an awful roster that they tanked in all but name, the end result was exactly the same. No amount of mental gymnastic will result in concluding that Barkov, Mackinnon, Makar, Landeskog and the Huberdeau trade weren't absolutely essential to those cups, if not the basis for them. This is what the argument was about, the core of both teams were built through high picks.

Weiss, Fleischmann, Versteeg, Campbell didn't just have a fluke years, they had been productive before then as well. It's also worth noting that 3 of those 4 guys were players they added in the offseason, which is why they had such a big jump. Then afterwards their number center got a serious injury playing only 17 games and never being the same, Versteeg was injured and only played 10 games, they also lost Jovonovski to a combination of age/injury playing only 6 games. They were bad the Barkov year because they suffered a lot of injuries to their top players, that's not what tanking is.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Weiss, Fleischmann, Versteeg, Campbell didn't just have a fluke years, they had been productive before then as well. It's also worth noting that 3 of those 4 guys were players they added in the offseason, which is why they had such a big jump. Then afterwards their number center got a serious injury playing only 17 games and never being the same, Versteeg was injured and only played 10 games, they also lost Jovonovski to a combination of age/injury playing only 6 games. They were bad the Barkov year because they suffered a lot of injuries to their top players, that's not what tanking is.

They picked

3rd overall
3rd overall
23rd overall
2nd overall
1st overall
11th overall
23rd overall
10th overall
15th overall
13th overall
12th overall

In an 11 year span.. they fit the definition clearly of a team that bottomed out continuously to build into a contender.

 

[CzarDemidov]

And it was shown that his best stretch was actually after his time with Suzuki when he was moved back to center.

You then wanted to use his time in Chicago to prove that he struggles at center. Which is both irrelevant since it has no bearing on his "best stretch", and unless you can show he did much better when used at wing in Chicago doesn't even support the claim that's he's better at wing then center.

He played centre in CHI — almost entirely for his 2nd and 3rd season. Can you name the games he played wing? He’s taken FOs in almost all the games.

 

[Captain Mountain]

They picked

3rd overall
3rd overall
23rd overall
2nd overall
1st overall
11th overall
23rd overall
10th overall
15th overall
13th overall
12th overall

In an 11 year span.. they fit the definition clearly of a team that bottomed out continuously to build into a contender.

People have got to stop using "tanking" as shorthand for rebuilding or building through the draft. Tanking almost never happens and the premise behind it (accepting being bad to get high pick(s) doesn't mean tanking (selling off everything to be bad).

Florida was bad because they were poorly managed and couldn't spend a ton. But they also started to improve when they committed to actually trying to get high picks. They made the playoffs once between 2000-2001 and 2014-2015. And the only reason they did in 2011-2012 is that they victimized a frankly worse than usual Southleast division (which was generally a pretty terrible division in part because Washington overreacted to Montreal upsetting them in 2010 and Tampa sweeping them in 2011).