Are two Czechs better than any Soviet player ever?

[Gerulaitis]

He received the most RW All Star Game votes in the East his second year in the league when he was, barely, a PPG player and not even a first line player on his own team.

So yeah, Ovechkin was great from the get-go, Jagr was not, and that's the point -- Jagr was a star before he was a hockey star.

And while his hockey status with the Pens grew, he kept being the most popular RW in the league (or the East) for a decade, rockstar-popular in Pittsburgh.

Yeah, he had some tough times for about four years in a career than spanned almost three decades and he had Don Cherry talking crap about him.

But that's the point.

In my opinion, through hardships, hero to zero, media and fans turned against him, then winning them back, then calling it quits for his own reasons -- having fans and pundits drool over his comeback and his legend growing -- then pissing the Pens fans off again and playing for whoever he wanted to play -- he became iconic. And mysterious, because he will forever have his "what if" factor. And the number up the rafters with the Pens -- a team he made love him, hate him, kinda love him, kinda hate him, then finally retro-love him again.

All those things you mentioned actually make him more iconic, his myth stronger, and his career more colorful. Just like Ovi's "he's my friend" moment and his 'gram pic with you-know-who actually make his personality more interesting.

In terms of personality/impact/status/mystique/story though, Ovechkin is silver to Jagr's gold.

I think in terms of personality/status/impact gold goes to Ovechkin.
He's almost 40 and still a Richard-caliber scorer. What a story

 

[psycat]

I do agree with this.

I guess, to me, this is sort of like a Babe Ruth vs. Hank Aaron debate. Aaron was closer to Ruth as an HR king than Ruth was to him as a fielder. But, Ruth was so spectacular at that one thing (hitting more HRs than entire teams) that he became larger than life and transcended the sport. While Aaron was close and had a long, steady, and accumulative career... everyone considers the Babe the greatest HR hitter of all-time.

If Ovechkin retired with 875 goals, he'd have more goals than Jagr, but if/when he retires from the NHL with 925 and the most in history... those extra 50 goals become the tipping point that pushes Ovechkin from an "all-time great" to "demigod"... at least for me. The NHL has been around for 117 years, and Ovie will end up scoring more goals than anyone in history. Imho, Jagr's package isn't enough to sweep Ovechkin's immortal feat under the rug... it's gotta be the difference maker in the way these guys are perceived historically.

I can follow your reasoning even if I don't agree with it, not outrageous one but doubt I will change my mind(on how I rank Jagr and Ovi) and neither will you I suspect. Hope weekend is nice.

 

[jimmysheva]

Ovechkin is already better than Jagr

 

[The Panther]

I think I have to take Jágr over Ovechkin. I personally consider career-longevity achievements as unimportant in player comparisons, and I'm only interested in each player at his respective best for some extended period of time (this might be three/four up to nine/ten seasons, but this obviously depends on the player).

Six-year period, between 1995-96 and 2000-01 (min. 200 GP):
-- 690 points = 1st
(second place is 82% of his total)
-- 1.54 PPG = 1st
(second place is 86% of his total)
-- 282 goals = 1st
(second place is 91% of his total)
-- 408 assists = 1st
(second place is 92% of his total)
-- +131 = 3rd
(2nd among forwards -- he's well ahead of guys like Fedorov and Lindros, who played on vastly better teams)
-- 1.23 PPG in playoffs = 1st (of those with 30+ games, to eliminate Gretzky; otherwise Jagr's 2nd)

In 1995-96, Jágr was already producing more ES points than Mario Lemieux, and he again outscored Lemieux head-to-head (or, I guess, hip to hip) in 2000-01. In the playoffs in this period, he also (marginally) outscored Lemieux.

So, I think Jágr reaches a sustained level of offensive dominance in this six-year span that is quite beyond Ovechkin (or Crosby). And he was getting it done in the playoffs, too, despite not being on a very competitive club after spring '96.

 

[authentic]

I also think how well players age nearing and beyond 40 is usually a good indication of who was better at their best. Players like Howe and Jagr IMO are quite likely a little more talented than Crosby and Ovechkin, who have aged as well as anyone but those two really.

From 2007-10 Ovechkin was on the same level I think even if not quite as good, but even if he was it doesn’t hold up to Jagr’s prolonged prime and consistent domination in the regular season and playoffs over a 7-10 year period.

I will admit there was a time where I ranked Ovechkin ahead for peak when it was more fresh in my memory, but in retrospect going through stats (especially playoffs) it has become clear to me that Jagr was better. The same goes for Crosby although I think there is more of a case to rank Crosby slightly ahead in career, and very close in prime (perhaps without injuries he could’ve been on par or slightly ahead).

 

[MadLuke]

I personally consider career-longevity achievements as unimportant in player comparisons,

Not a bad way to look at it, but there a couple of issues that could underrate Ovechkin.

Capitals winning the cup in 2018 with Ovechkin leading the playoff in goals do show how valuable longevity is, a 2006-2014 prime would have not got it done. Creating giant window for a team has value (the Pens having 2 different going to the finals back to back was because of that as well).

Looking at gap with the second player will be noisy, if Lindros-Lemieux play well healthy during that time maybe it look different.

But all that to say, Jagr 1996-2001 do have a good argument to be the most dominant non Gretzky stretch of 6 years of modern hockey offensively.

Esposito 69-74, or 70-75, McDavid 2019-2024, Orr 70-75, Lemieux 88-93, Lafleur 75-80... That the group and he has a good argument over all of them.

6 years, consecutive mosts adj points (not taking account season length... so, modern only, lock-out year get hurt, etc... just a rough quick look)

Spoiler: top 30

full_name	start	end	games	goals	points	adj_goals	adj_points	adj_ppg	adj_gpg
Wayne Gretzky	19811982	19811987	473	437	1219	404	1128.2	2.39	0.85
Wayne Gretzky	19801981	19801986	474	430	1200	395.2	1103.6	2.33	0.83
Wayne Gretzky	19821983	19821988	457	385	1156	359.3	1079.2	2.36	0.79
Wayne Gretzky	19831984	19831989	455	368	1128	346.8	1063.8	2.34	0.76
Wayne Gretzky	19791980	19791985	473	429	1122	402.1	1054.2	2.23	0.85
Wayne Gretzky	19841985	19841990	454	321	1065	308.9	1022.9	2.25	0.68
Wayne Gretzky	19851986	19851991	452	289	1020	284.7	1002.4	2.22	0.63
Wayne Gretzky	19861987	19861992	446	268	926	270.4	935.7	2.1	0.61
Phil Esposito	19681969	19681974	460	357	785	421.9	929	2.02	0.92
Phil Esposito	19691970	19691975	465	369	786	425.9	907.6	1.95	0.92
Jaromir Jagr	19951996	19952001	447	282	690	365.9	900.2	2.01	0.82
Phil Esposito	19671968	19671973	456	324	724	391.1	875.9	1.92	0.86
Connor McDavid	20182019	20182024	436	248	726	298.7	875.6	2.01	0.69
Phil Esposito	19701971	19701976	463	361	770	409.5	872.6	1.88	0.88
Connor McDavid	20172018	20172023	442	257	702	312.8	855.8	1.94	0.71
Bobby Orr	19691970	19691975	447	214	734	247.3	850.9	1.9	0.55
Mario Lemieux	19871988	19871993	362	332	826	337.1	840	2.32	0.93
Jaromir Jagr	19961997	19962002	434	251	620	335.1	832.3	1.92	0.77
Jaromir Jagr	19941995	19942000	414	262	639	338.8	831.4	2.01	0.82
Mario Lemieux	19841985	19841990	427	345	838	340.9	827.6	1.94	0.8
Wayne Gretzky	19881989	19881994	429	220	789	230	825.5	1.92	0.54
Jaromir Jagr	19931994	19931999	431	252	642	320.8	820	1.9	0.74
Wayne Gretzky	19871988	19871993	412	222	808	224.9	819.6	1.99	0.55
Jaromir Jagr	19971998	19972003	446	240	602	325.6	818.8	1.84	0.73
Connor McDavid	20162017	20162022	442	223	649	278.8	812.7	1.84	0.63
Guy Lafleur	19741975	19741980	462	327	766	345.7	809.5	1.75	0.75
Phil Esposito	19661967	19661972	447	290	655	354.5	803	1.8	0.79
Bobby Orr	19681969	19681974	434	189	663	224.5	786.9	1.81	0.52
Phil Esposito	19711972	19711977	465	319	698	359.1	785.3	1.69	0.77
Alex Ovechkin	20052006	20052011	475	301	614	384.1	784.5	1.65	0.81

fsd

 

[Sentinel]

Again, there is "better" and there is "greater." Pound for pound, Jagr may be "better" than Ovechkin. But I rank Ovechkin over Jagr without much hesitation.

So, in "greatness" it's:

Hasek
Ovechkin
Jagr
Makarov

 

[Kegs]

Hasek was godly.

 

[Gerulaitis]

Again, there is "better" and there is "greater." Pound for pound, Jagr may he "better" than Ovechkin. But I rank Ovechkin over Jagr without much hesitation.

So, in "greatness" it's:

Hasek
Ovechkin
Jagr
Makarov

If we add goalies to the mix ( which I think isn't fair) then I'd say:
Tretiak
Ovechkin
Fetisov
Hasek
Jagr / Makarov ...

 

[Michael Farkas]

Again, there is "better" and there is "greater." Pound for pound, Jagr may he "better" than Ovechkin

What does this mean in moderately more detail?

 

[Sentinel]

What does this mean in moderately more detail?

Figure it out. It's not that hard once you realize my phone changed "be" into "he"

 

[Sentinel]

If we add goalies to the mix ( which I think isn't fair) then I'd say:
Tretiak
Ovechkin
Fetisov
Hasek
Jagr / Makarov ...

I don't rank Tretiak and Fetisov nearly as high... both lower than Makarov too.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Figure it out. It's not that hard once you realize my phone changed "be" into "he"

I can't figure it out because I'm not in your head. That's why I'm asking.

 

[Overrated]

If we add goalies to the mix ( which I think isn't fair) then I'd say:
Tretiak
Ovechkin
Fetisov
Hasek
Jagr / Makarov ...

Tretiak was probably the best goaltender of the 1970s but it was close between him and Dryden and even Holecek. He wasn't head and shoulders above everyone.

 

[Gerulaitis]

Tretiak was probably the best goaltender of the 1970s but it was close between him and Dryden and even Holecek. He wasn't head and shoulders above everyone.

Close, but better. And the best of the early 80s too.
Later he trained Hasek who went on to win many Vezinas.

 

[Overrated]

Close, but better. And the best of the early 80s too.
Later he trained Hasek who went on to win many Vezinas.

Hasek is the GOAT of goaltending though.

 

[Troubadour]

Close, but better. And the best of the early 80s too.
Later he trained Hasek who went on to win many Vezinas.

If any outsider deserves any credit for Hasek making his unorthodox style effective and successful, it is Mitch Korn.

Tretiak tried to normalize Hasek and it was a complete flop, as Hasek felt Tretiak had nothing to offer to him.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Close, but better. And the best of the early 80s too.
Later he trained Hasek who went on to win many Vezinas.

by trained you mean tried to remove anything unorthodox from Hasek's play and turn him into a fundamentals robot...aka the exact opposite of what made Hasek so great?

 

[Gerulaitis]

Hasek is the GOAT of goaltending though.

Sure, in your world

 

[Gerulaitis]

If any outsider deserves any credit for Hasek making his unorthodox style effective and successful, it is Mitch Korn.

Tretiak tried to normalize Hasek and it was a complete flop, as Hasek felt Tretiak had nothing to offer to him.

Please share a source of that joke.

I guess training Belfour was also a complete flop

 

[Michael Farkas]

That's specious reasoning...

 

[Troubadour]

Please share a source of that joke.

I guess training Belfour was also a complete flop

I have read Hasek's autobiography where he basically said Tretiak taught him nothing, meanwhile he always praised Korn.

Then there are articles like this one:

Sabres' Hasek Ready For Battle

Has Won Four Vezina Trophies (Best Goalie)

www.cbsnews.com

...where you can find paragraphs like this one:

Belfour led Chicago to the Stanley Cup Finals against Pittsburgh in 1992 with Hasek mostly looking on from the bench. Legendary Soviet goaltender Vladislav Tretiak blew into Chicago once or twice a year to work with the goalies but "he never really worked with me," Hasek said.

Once or twice a year.

He never really worked with me.

If I ever come across that Hasek's book, I may dig up that brief paragraph he dedicated to Tretiak.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I worked consecutive summers as an instructor at Mitch Korn's - Mitch was a huge fan of Dominik's and vice versa.

Here was the cover of the book that we gave to attendees - the book is a collection of articles mostly without a real common theme. It's still the first thing I pull out to review when I'm struggling.

 

[Gerulaitis]

I have read Hasek's autobiography where he basically said Tretiak taught him nothing, meanwhile he always praised Korn.

Then there are articles like this one:

Sabres' Hasek Ready For Battle

Has Won Four Vezina Trophies (Best Goalie)

www.cbsnews.com

...where you can find paragraphs like this one:

Belfour led Chicago to the Stanley Cup Finals against Pittsburgh in 1992 with Hasek mostly looking on from the bench. Legendary Soviet goaltender Vladislav Tretiak blew into Chicago once or twice a year to work with the goalies but "he never really worked with me," Hasek said.

Once or twice a year.

He never really worked with me.

If I ever come across that Hasek's book, I may dig up that brief paragraph he dedicated to Tretiak.

The fact is Belfour was a starter so perhaps Keenan wanted Tretiak to work with him more. How many Vezinas did Belfour win in early 90s? Belfour was a priority.

And let's be honest Hasek wasn't really a superstar goalie when he came to the NHL from Czechoslovakia. Remember the hockey worlds in 1990 where Arturs Irbe outplayed him?

 

[Troubadour]

I worked consecutive summers as an instructor at Mitch Korn's - Mitch was a huge fan of Dominik's and vice versa.

Here was the cover of the book that we gave to attendees - the book is a collection of articles mostly without a real common theme. It's still the first thing I pull out to review when I'm struggling.

View attachment 1010005

That's cool af to be honest.

The fact is Belfour was a starter so perhaps Keenan wanted Tretiak to work with him more. How many Vezinas did Belfour win in early 90s? Belfour was a priority.

That would be reasonable of course. But if you read into it, it becomes clear that while Hasek was inspired by Tretiak the goalie, he was unimpressed with Tretiak the coach, and Tretiak probably wasn't convinced Hasek's approach would work, either, so it was a non-working relationship.

And let's be honest Hasek wasn't really a superstar goalie when he came to the NHL from Czechoslovakia. Remember the hockey worlds in 1990 where Arturs Irbe outplayed him?

He actually kinda was. Not very consistent, and perhaps not quite NHL-ready yet, but he was a bit of an international star.