Somewhere between a Lidstrom and an Orr? Would be interesting to catch some full games of him at his peak. I’ve seen a few years ago now but can’t really remember much from them.
Are two Czechs better than any Soviet player ever?
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Somewhere between a Lidstrom and an Orr? Would be interesting to catch some full games of him at his peak. I’ve seen a few years ago now but can’t really remember much from them.
Necro thread but I would agree that Jagr+Hasek clears any Russian(or European) player. Ovechkin+Lidström are obviously the closest but I just believe they got same tier of careers but with higher(or longer) peaks.
frisco
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Staniowski
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- Jan 22, 2007
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I'm all over the place between this thread and the "Is Jagr the greatest Euro ever?" thread. It got me thinking and reevaluating my previous beliefs and gut instincts. The more I think about it, the more I don't believe Jagr is the greatest non-Canadian forward (or skater) of all time, although he's up there.
If we're talking about overall greatness, I need to rank Ovie ahead of him. His trophy case is more spectacular, he's more iconic, and he's going to hold the title of greatest goal scorer in the history of the sport. I'm sorry, but that cannot be brushed under the carpet like it's a ho-hum feat. Ovie has also aged as well as the greatest of all time... scoring over a PPG from age 35+. This puts him up there with the likes of Howe, Gretzky, Mario, and Crosby. Even guys like Jagr and Fedorov didn't do that. Granted, we only get Jagr's 35 and 39 years in the NHL but neither hit a PPG. Ovie is on the verge of scoring 40 goals as a 39-year-old!!
I'm landing my plane on Ovechkin being overall greater than Jagr. As for other forwards, it's tricky. If we are evaluating through an "at their absolute best" prism, I think it's fair to say that peak Makarov and Forsberg make a case for being superior to Jagr. Makarov was a wizard with ice water in his veins. Forsberg was a magician who moonlighted as a physical predator and two-way demon. If there was one game being played and my life was hanging in the balance, I'd take prime Forsberg and Makarov over Jagr 7 days a week and twice on Sunday!
And this doesn't mention Slava Fetisov, who I consider the Soviet Ray Bourque. Fetisov was the ultimate general, leader, and two-way force. Was he more valuable to a team than Jagr? If we're being fair, I say yes. Granted, this is tomayto, tomahto. A case can also be made for Lidstrom, who I admittedly don't love as much as most. Yes, Nick was an all-time great, but his secret sauce was unwavering consistency. He was steadily great throughout his career. But, imho, his absolute best couldn't touch the absolute best of Orr, Bourque, Harvey, Fetisov, Potvin, Robinson, or even guys like Pronger. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that Makar during the Avs Cup run season was greater than any peak snapshot of Lidstrom.
Hasek, though, is cemented. At his absolute best, he could be the greatest goaltender in history, let alone Euro. The only other I could debate is prime Tretiak. The pickle is... if I were building a franchise, I'd take Tretiak over Hasek and sleep well at night, but high-end Hasek is undeniable. He gets the nod.
At the end of the day, the two greatest Euros were Ovechkin and Hasek in my book. Sorry, Jags! Final answer.
If we're talking about overall greatness, I need to rank Ovie ahead of him. His trophy case is more spectacular, he's more iconic, and he's going to hold the title of greatest goal scorer in the history of the sport. I'm sorry, but that cannot be brushed under the carpet like it's a ho-hum feat. Ovie has also aged as well as the greatest of all time... scoring over a PPG from age 35+. This puts him up there with the likes of Howe, Gretzky, Mario, and Crosby. Even guys like Jagr and Fedorov didn't do that. Granted, we only get Jagr's 35 and 39 years in the NHL but neither hit a PPG. Ovie is on the verge of scoring 40 goals as a 39-year-old!!
I'm landing my plane on Ovechkin being overall greater than Jagr. As for other forwards, it's tricky. If we are evaluating through an "at their absolute best" prism, I think it's fair to say that peak Makarov and Forsberg make a case for being superior to Jagr. Makarov was a wizard with ice water in his veins. Forsberg was a magician who moonlighted as a physical predator and two-way demon. If there was one game being played and my life was hanging in the balance, I'd take prime Forsberg and Makarov over Jagr 7 days a week and twice on Sunday!
And this doesn't mention Slava Fetisov, who I consider the Soviet Ray Bourque. Fetisov was the ultimate general, leader, and two-way force. Was he more valuable to a team than Jagr? If we're being fair, I say yes. Granted, this is tomayto, tomahto. A case can also be made for Lidstrom, who I admittedly don't love as much as most. Yes, Nick was an all-time great, but his secret sauce was unwavering consistency. He was steadily great throughout his career. But, imho, his absolute best couldn't touch the absolute best of Orr, Bourque, Harvey, Fetisov, Potvin, Robinson, or even guys like Pronger. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that Makar during the Avs Cup run season was greater than any peak snapshot of Lidstrom.
Hasek, though, is cemented. At his absolute best, he could be the greatest goaltender in history, let alone Euro. The only other I could debate is prime Tretiak. The pickle is... if I were building a franchise, I'd take Tretiak over Hasek and sleep well at night, but high-end Hasek is undeniable. He gets the nod.
At the end of the day, the two greatest Euros were Ovechkin and Hasek in my book. Sorry, Jags! Final answer.
Good post overall even if I have Jagr ahead, I can see someone taking Ovechnin.
Crazy thing about Jagr is in his age 43/44 season he was 21st in points (Ovechkin is currently 21st in points per game), 7th in even strength points (only 6 away from Crosby at #2), and he did this playing 17:05 per game (Ovechkin’s current ice time being 17:45). To post a season like that at his age is something I don’t believe Crosby or Ovechkin are capable of, and his peak was longer lasting than Ovechkin.
Also if you look at that adjusted playoff points thread he looks really good there, ahead of Ovechkin in peak, prime, career and even in goal scoring alone.
That’s ultimately why I feel comfortable taking Jagr as the better all-time player.
Staniowski
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MadLuke
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- Jan 18, 2011
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This is so dependent on the scoring environment, 35 and 39 years old Jagr were in quite low scoring nhl. 35 years old Jagr in 2006 could have had a ppg season
Regardless 50 goals in your 36 years old season is quite something....
That will have to see in 40 years, Jagr mullet, Jagr salute, a bit of a unique style (in part because of his size) easy to spot on the ice, they are both at the very top of hockey iconography.
I go back and forth between these two for who’s greater, but he is the best goalie ever and maybe at his peak you would take him over any non Gretzky/Orr/Lemieux player as well. His reign in the NHL was just relatively short compared to Jagr atleast.
Troubadour
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- Feb 23, 2018
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The "Ovi is more iconic" part of the essay raised my eyebrow.
Jagr is one of the most recognizable players of all time. I mean, the man had a travelling fanclub of hockey nerds with mullet wigs twenty years after he cut his hair. He had almost as many funny quotes as he had dekes. Wore #68 to remember the Prague Spring. Had the "Elvis just left the building" moment. Banged supermodels. Was voted into the Eastern Conference All-Star first line 10 times in a row or something.
"Ovi is more iconic than Jagr" is aking to "Selanne was better one on one (than Jagr)".
Gerulaitis
Registered User
- Mar 20, 2025
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Good post.
A slight correction - Fetisov was the Soviet Bobby Orr.
Ovechkin is the second best goal scorer in the world this season. At 39.
Yes, he's ahead of Jagr. He must be a top 5 skater all-time as soon as scores that #895
jigglysquishy
Registered User
I really don't see the Fetisov/Orr comparisons. They are quite distinct stylistically. Orr was faster, rushed more, and far superior offensively. Fetisov was more patient, had a better first pass, and was a member of the team.
Orr was the Bruins. The entire team flowed through him. He played way more minutes than anyone. Anything less than magnificence, and the Bruins couldn't win. Esposito was great, but there's no question who the star on the team was.
I rate Fetisov over Makarov as best Soviet, but it's close. Certainly in the late 70s/early 80s Fetisov was the bigger star but it's never a tier onto himself. By his 80s injuries, Makarov takes over.
Fetisov was never expected to take the team over and play 30 minutes. He never had to. In terms of styles, team roles, and general reputation, I just don't see the comparison.
Harvey? Now that I see. A leader on a dynasty. Brilliant first pass. Calm and patient. Didn't have to take over games but enabled his teammates to shine.
Suchy is a poor man's Orr. Both in terms of rushing ability, and in the team overrelying on him.
Orr was the Bruins. The entire team flowed through him. He played way more minutes than anyone. Anything less than magnificence, and the Bruins couldn't win. Esposito was great, but there's no question who the star on the team was.
I rate Fetisov over Makarov as best Soviet, but it's close. Certainly in the late 70s/early 80s Fetisov was the bigger star but it's never a tier onto himself. By his 80s injuries, Makarov takes over.
Fetisov was never expected to take the team over and play 30 minutes. He never had to. In terms of styles, team roles, and general reputation, I just don't see the comparison.
Harvey? Now that I see. A leader on a dynasty. Brilliant first pass. Calm and patient. Didn't have to take over games but enabled his teammates to shine.
Suchy is a poor man's Orr. Both in terms of rushing ability, and in the team overrelying on him.
Staniowski
Registered User
The comparison of Fetisov to Orr is not one of style, it never was.
Feisov was very often compared to Orr in the early '80s, when it wasn't uncommon for observers to call Fetisov the best player in the world (i.e. better than Gretzky).
The comparisons to Orr were merely about how good Fetisov was. He obviously didn't look anything like Orr. But he was often referred to as the Soviet Orr. The main thing they had in common was they were both incredibly good skaters, but even their skating was very different.
Feisov was very often compared to Orr in the early '80s, when it wasn't uncommon for observers to call Fetisov the best player in the world (i.e. better than Gretzky).
The comparisons to Orr were merely about how good Fetisov was. He obviously didn't look anything like Orr. But he was often referred to as the Soviet Orr. The main thing they had in common was they were both incredibly good skaters, but even their skating was very different.
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So Fetisov was actually seen as better than Makarov? Or was that just the early 80s.
Staniowski
Registered User
I think Fetisov is most commonly considered better than Makarov overall, but certainly not everybody agrees with that.
Fetisov, Makarov, and Krutov were each probably the best player in the Soviet Union at various times (Krutov the least amount of time). Kasatonov was excellent too but probably never the best.
- Jan 22, 2007
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I love Fetisov, but I don't see that at all. Orr was in a class of his own. At the top hockey league in the world, he won scoring titles, Norris trophies, and MVPs. He revolutionized the position and the game itself. He was a unicorn, unlike anything we've seen before or since. Stylistically, Orr and Fetisov were dissimilar. Offensively, Orr was on a different level than Fetisov. And this is paying all due respect to Fetisov... and then some.
In my opinion, Raymond Bourque is the second-greatest defenseman in hockey history, and I've always felt the separation between Ray and Fetisov was razor thin. In fact, these guys are eerily similar in stature, build, shot, skating, and skill set. They are both bulls who do everything at an elite (not quite Orr) level and have no real flaws to exploit. Stylistically, these guys are practically clones.
So, I guess I could see your "Fetisov was the Soviet Orr" point if you're saying, "Fetisov was the greatest Soviet defenseman in history," but he cannot be compared to Orr in terms of dominance or style.
- Jan 22, 2007
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Hmm, fair enough. Jagr was, indeed, iconic. But I feel his icon status began to grow as he aged and the overall sentiment increased. Early on, Jagr was booed mercilessly in many arenas, was considered a diver and crybaby... and in cities like New York and Philly, fans would whistle at him every time he touched the puck. Until Mario hung them up, Jags was generally in his shadow, even owning the "Mario Jr." moniker. He was also criticized heavily in many circles for his mostly disappointing stint in Washington and ended up bolting to the K after a short stint in New York. Jagr may have been iconic in a way during his NHL career, but he was polarizing and often criticized.
Ovechkin, on the other hand, was practically an icon overnight. Even before he arrived in the NHL, he was getting tons of attention, and he appeared on the scene with Crosby post-lockout. He was an instant sensation, and even his mirrored visor was as iconic as his flamboyant and contagious goal celebrations.
For me, the difference between Jagr and Ovechkin is that Ovie was universally beloved right off the rip. Even the hard-nosed and vicious Philly fans had a soft spot for Ovie... perhaps the only Cap they've ever liked!! Ovie is so likeable it's scary. Even though the NHL tried to position him as the Darth Vader to Sid's Luke Skywalker, the fans never took the bait... because Ovechkin was way too likeable to be cast as a heel.
I think the appreciation for Jagr has grown over the years... mad respect paid to him for his genuine love of the game and commitment to playing into his 50s. He deserves ALL OF IT!! But I'm going to venture to say in about 5-6 years if/when Ovie is still playing in the KHL, his legend will have grown even more... when he's in the HHOF as the greatest scorer in hockey history.
Makarov was barely over a ppg at age 31 playing in the late 80s/early 90s. Jagr was a final weekend of the season away from winning the Art Ross/Rocket at age 34.
Stephen
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No I’d say Fetisov was more like the Doug Harvey of the Soviets. Singular defenseman on an all-time power house group but not a transformational defenseman like Bobby Orr. There’s no equivalent there.
To be fair those sentiments about Jagr were mostly utter nonsense from a time where every European player had a reputation for questionable character, worth ethic, leadership, toughness, etc.
Batis
Registered User
Yes the Fetisov/Harvey comparison is much more accurate than the Fetisov/Orr comparison for the reasons you pointed out here.
Regarding the bolded it is true that Fetisov was the more accomplished player when they were teenagers up until the end of the 77/78 season. But then Makarov was very clearly ahead of Fetisov from 78/79 to 80/81 as he was the leader among all players in both Soviet player of the year voting shares and Izvestia golden stick voting shares during that timeframe while Fetisov did not receive a single vote in the Soviet player of the year voting during those three seasons and only had one 19th place finish in the Izvestia golden stick voting.
Soviet player of the year voting shares during the 78/79-80/81 time frame
1. Sergei Makarov 1.073
2. Vladislav Tretiak 0.855
3. Alexander Maltsev 0.729
4. Boris Mikhailov 0.488
5. Valeri Vasiliev 0.419
Izvestia golden stick voting shares during the 78/79-80/81 time frame
1. Sergei Makarov 0.711
2. Vladislav Tretiak 0.557
3. Boris Mikhailov 0.551
4. Valeri Vasiliev 0.408
5. Alexander Maltsev 0.390
6. Vladimir Martinec 0.196
So when the Green Unit was created going into the 81/82 season Makarov had already established himself as the best player in Europe.
Then when the Green Unit was created Fetisov joined Makarov on that best player in Europe kind of level and during the 81/82-83/84 timeframe it can be argued that he was slightly ahead. But to me the fact that Makarov already had been the most accomplished player in Europe over a 3-year period before their time on the Green Unit is one of the most important factors for why I rank him ahead of Fetisov all time. Because if we look at the Green Unit era (81/82-88/89) as a whole it is difficult to find that much separation between Makarov and Fetisov when it comes to greatness. So in my opinion the landslide margin between the two during the years leading up to the creation of the Green Unit really becomes an important factor in favour of Makarov.
JackSlater
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- Apr 27, 2010
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I don't think anyone, in North America anyway, ever meant "Fetisov is the Soviet Orr" as a quality or stylistic comparison. It's just a reflection of Orr being by far the best Canadian defenceman and Fetisov being by far the best Soviet defenceman. Larionov being called the Soviet Gretzky was a different thing, somewhat more about style of play.
Did Soviets or Europeans refer to Fetisov as the Soviet Orr? People in North America would say it as a way to put Fetisov's significance into context. I'm not sure how big Orr's name would be in Europe.
Did Soviets or Europeans refer to Fetisov as the Soviet Orr? People in North America would say it as a way to put Fetisov's significance into context. I'm not sure how big Orr's name would be in Europe.
Jagr got better peak, better playoffs, better prime, better international career and so on. Jagr is just a step up. Ovi is the better goalscorer(although not by much at their bests) but that's about it.
Hard disagree on Ovi being a top 5 skater of all time, regardless of where you rank him in relation to Jagr.
