Are the Leafs a better TEAM without Matthews?

[Dekes For Days]

I don't think Matthews is a poor defensive player, but his Selke level is overstated. Like many aspects of his game outside of core scoring ability, there can be a lot of variation so you don't really know what you're going to get.

For example. He's not that physical. Except when he tries to be for a period or a game and dominates the power game. Then reverts to the usual. He's not a natural puck distributor, but makes Lemieux like passes on occasion. He's sometimes a shot blocking machine and a big takeaway guy. Then he's not. He's a dominant center who can carry the puck through the neutral zone with authority, but will defer to Mitch for vast stretches.

And just like his effort level, the defensive details are not always there. The back pressure isn't there, the puck management isn't. It doesn't add up to a Selke level forward.

Pretty much everything you said here is wrong. He has no more variation than anybody else, including Selke forwards. Your expectation and understanding of what other players do is just wildly unrealistic. Every player has ups and downs. Every player makes defensive mistakes, from the Reaves of the world to the Bergerons, but Matthews is a very strong defensive player. Cherry picking clips is a horrible method of evaluation, and the ones you chose aren't even good, and don't show what you want to claim. Only one could even be blamed on Matthews, and it was a miscommunication on a 3 on 3 line change.

Since 2020, Matthews is 1st among forwards in shot blocks, and yet you criticize him for that. Since 2020, Matthews is 3rd among forwards in takeaways, and yet you criticize him for that. Shows how accurate your criticisms are. Matthews is well above average in hitting, especially among top tier players, and is among the best in the world in utilizing non-hitting physicality to his advantage, and yet you still criticize him for that too. He is a very good puck carrier and distributor, but he's also smart enough to utilize the better one when he has them next to him, so that he can better utilize the best shot in the world. Some people don't seem to understand that, and criticize him for that too.

He consistently backchecks, has good defensive instincts, and has some of the best puck management in the world. I know "effort" is a buzzword that people like to use when they are mad at outcomes they don't understand, but there has never been any reason to question Matthews' effort. You don't become one of the best players in the world with poor effort. You are comparing him to a narrative fantasy that doesn't actually exist, and then you blame him when he doesn't match it.

 

[hullsy47]

Is he related to Jack Eichel?

Lol sorry .had a few beers

 

[Stephen]

Pretty much everything you said here is wrong. He has no more variation than anybody else, including Selke forwards. Your expectation and understanding of what other players do is just wildly unrealistic. Every player has ups and downs. Every player makes defensive mistakes, from the Reaves of the world to the Bergerons, but Matthews is a very strong defensive player. Cherry picking clips is a horrible method of evaluation, and the ones you chose aren't even good, and don't show what you want to claim. Only one could even be blamed on Matthews, and it was a miscommunication on a 3 on 3 line change.

Since 2020, Matthews is 1st among forwards in shot blocks, and yet you criticize him for that. Since 2020, Matthews is 3rd among forwards in takeaways, and yet you criticize him for that. Shows how accurate your criticisms are. Matthews is well above average in hitting, especially among top tier players, and is among the best in the world in utilizing non-hitting physicality to his advantage, and yet you still criticize him for that too. He is a very good puck carrier and distributor, but he's also smart enough to utilize the better one when he has them next to him, so that he can better utilize the best shot in the world. Some people don't seem to understand that, and criticize him for that too.

He consistently backchecks, has good defensive instincts, and has some of the best puck management in the world. I know "effort" is a buzzword that people like to use when they are mad at outcomes they don't understand, but there has never been any reason to question Matthews' effort. You don't become one of the best players in the world with poor effort. You are comparing him to a narrative fantasy that doesn't actually exist, and then you blame him when he doesn't match it.

Matthews has never been a Selke front runner, Selke winner and the highest he came to one was a distant 3rd so it's more the disingenuous whisper campaigns and defensive overrating that's a problem when people get in a huff whenever he's criticized for his defensive game and "how dare you” when the statement is made that he’s not a Selke level forward.

He's good defensively, can be dominant defensively and excel in individual chores defensively any given night like FO wins and shot blocks, better than a lot superstar forwards, but is prone to a lot of breakdowns over the years and not exempt from criticism.

Also, "buzzwords like effort." If you actually believe don't believe in intangibles and competitive aspects of the sport, you probably shouldn't be trying to Dekesplain it.

 

[Welsh Maple Leaf]

Matthews has never been a Selke front runner, Selke winner and the highest he came to one was a distant 3rd so it's more the disingenuous whisper campaigns and defensive overrating that's a problem when people get in a huff whenever he's criticized for his defensive game and "how dare you” when the statement is made that he’s not a Selke level forward.

He's good defensively, can be dominant defensively and excel in individual chores defensively any given night like FO wins and shot blocks, better than a lot superstar forwards, but is prone to a lot of breakdowns over the years and not exempt from criticism.

Also, "buzzwords like effort." If you actually believe don't believe in intangibles and competitive aspects of the sport, you probably shouldn't be trying to Dekesplain it.

Being 3rd as in the 3rd best option in the whole league to win the Selke is pretty good.

 

[Stephen]

Being 3rd as in the 3rd best option in the whole league to win the Selke is pretty good.

All I'm saying is he's not actually a Selke level forward and what there are lapses in his defensive game that hold him back that leaves something to be desired.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I think Matthews falls into the good but not genuinely Selke-level defence. He’s solid for sure but he does take shifts or nights off too.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Matthews has never been a Selke front runner, Selke winner and the highest he came to one was a distant 3rd so it's more the disingenuous whisper campaigns and defensive overrating that's a problem when people get in a huff whenever he's criticized for his defensive game and "how dare you” when the statement is made that he’s not a Selke level forward.

He's good defensively, can be dominant defensively and excel in individual chores defensively any given night like FO wins and shot blocks, better than a lot superstar forwards, but is prone to a lot of breakdowns over the years and not exempt from criticism.

Also, "buzzwords like effort." If you actually believe don't believe in intangibles and competitive aspects of the sport, you probably shouldn't be trying to Dekesplain it.

Nobody is "getting in a huff" or "how-dare-you"ing or "dekesplaining" or doing "disingenuous whisper campaigns". You came in trying to Stephexplain that, actually, Matthews' defensive reputation (which is pretty undervalued, if anything) was unearned, and you made a bunch of unjustified criticisms of him and every aspect of his play. That kind of claim is going to get challenged, and I wasn't the only one to do so.

You cherry picked some clips, but they are things that happen to everybody, and they didn't support what you were claiming about Matthews. You criticized variability in his play, when everybody has variability in their play, and he is among the most consistent. You criticized his physicality, when he's an above average hitter and one of the best at utilizing non-hitting physicality. You criticized his shot blocking, when he has the most shot blocks. You criticized his takeaways, when he has among the most takeaways. You blame him for adapting his playstyle to what's best for his situation, instead of playing the one-dimensional way you prefer. You criticize his puck management, when he's among the best in the league at managing the puck. You criticize his backchecking, when even one of the 'bad' clips you picked out showed him covering for his defensemen and literally doing exactly that. Heck, you even spent the last month criticizing Matthews for being injured, and for not giving you his medical information.

You criticize his defensive game because he's not perfect all the time, without realizing that hockey is a game of mistakes, and even the best defensive players make them. That's not what decides a good or bad defensive player. Everybody has breakdowns over the years, and good and bad stretches, especially through injuries. You don't have to be a Selke winner to be a great defensive player, but you claim to put a lot of emphasis on the Selke, right? Well, you criticize him for never winning, but according to the Selke, he is the reigning 3rd best defensive forward in the league (you know, the "distant 3rd" that was 1.29% behind). What did the Selke suddenly stop mattering there? And since he entered the league, only 8 players have received votes in more seasons. So if anything, the Selke disagrees with you too. Both in defensive proficiency and consistency. As do actual measures of defensive proficiency and impact.

"Believing in the competitive aspects of the sport" does not mean defaulting to blaming "effort" for everything. This is professional hockey, and even if there was more variation in effort to observe, you vastly overrate your ability to discern it. It is a buzzword that is very rarely the cause of the outcome it is being blamed for, and often just acts as a way to subjectively place blame on a desired player without any actual justification. There is no reason to question Matthews' effort, and we have data that shows you to be objectively wrong about most of the other things you said. I recommend watching more of other players around the league (especially on their off nights). Most people get a very limited perspective of what's normal.

 

[Racer88]

Nobody is "getting in a huff" or "how-dare-you"ing or "dekesplaining" or doing "disingenuous whisper campaigns". You came in trying to Stephexplain that, actually, Matthews' defensive reputation (which is pretty undervalued, if anything) was unearned, and you made a bunch of unjustified criticisms of him and every aspect of his play. That kind of claim is going to get challenged, and I wasn't the only one to do so.

You cherry picked some clips, but they are things that happen to everybody, and they didn't support what you were claiming about Matthews. You criticized variability in his play, when everybody has variability in their play, and he is among the most consistent. You criticized his physicality, when he's an above average hitter and one of the best at utilizing non-hitting physicality. You criticized his shot blocking, when he has the most shot blocks. You criticized his takeaways, when he has among the most takeaways. You blame him for adapting his playstyle to what's best for his situation, instead of playing the one-dimensional way you prefer. You criticize his puck management, when he's among the best in the league at managing the puck. You criticize his backchecking, when even one of the 'bad' clips you picked out showed him covering for his defensemen and literally doing exactly that. Heck, you even spent the last month criticizing Matthews for being injured, and for not giving you his medical information.

You criticize his defensive game because he's not perfect all the time, without realizing that hockey is a game of mistakes, and even the best defensive players make them. That's not what decides a good or bad defensive player. Everybody has breakdowns over the years, and good and bad stretches, especially through injuries. You don't have to be a Selke winner to be a great defensive player, but you claim to put a lot of emphasis on the Selke, right? Well, you criticize him for never winning, but according to the Selke, he is the reigning 3rd best defensive forward in the league (you know, the "distant 3rd" that was 1.29% behind). What did the Selke suddenly stop mattering there? And since he entered the league, only 8 players have received votes in more seasons. So if anything, the Selke disagrees with you too. Both in defensive proficiency and consistency. As do actual measures of defensive proficiency and impact.

"Believing in the competitive aspects of the sport" does not mean defaulting to blaming "effort" for everything. This is professional hockey, and even if there was more variation in effort to observe, you vastly overrate your ability to discern it. It is a buzzword that is very rarely the cause of the outcome it is being blamed for, and often just acts as a way to subjectively place blame on a desired player without any actual justification. There is no reason to question Matthews' effort, and we have data that shows you to be objectively wrong about most of the other things you said. I recommend watching more of other players around the league (especially on their off nights). Most people get a very limited perspective of what's normal.

If we are to watch other players to be fair it should be the players in the same price point as Matthews, correct.
Should we pick 12 million and up as the benchmark

 

[thewave]

I think Matthews falls into the good but not genuinely Selke-level defence. He’s solid for sure but he does take shifts or nights off too.

Seems more like this is a injury management thing.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If we are to watch other players to be fair it should be the players in the same price point as Matthews, correct.
Should we pick 12 million and up as the benchmark

It doesn't really matter who. We're talking about things that are universal.

 

[Racer88]

It doesn't really matter who. We're talking about things that are universal.

It does matter……a lot. When you are the highest paid player in the league you are expected to be better and you absolutely need to be compared to like compensated players

 

[Apex Predator]

It does matter……a lot. When you are the highest paid player in the league you are expected to be better and you absolutely need to be compared to like compensated players

Right it’s like paying an employee 150K to help grow the company but then comparing him to a customer service agent who makes 50K.

 

[Racer88]

Right it’s like paying an employee 150K to help grow the company but then comparing him to a customer service agent who makes 50K.

Ya, I don’t understand why some can’t see that

 

[Dekes For Days]

It does matter……a lot. When you are the highest paid player in the league you are expected to be better and you absolutely need to be compared to like compensated players

You can watch whoever you want, but it doesn't really matter because it's about observing and acknowledging the things that happen to all players more than it is a direct comparison of players. In fact, it would probably be more beneficial for the individual to watch players with a great defensive reputation, regardless of salary, as it will help him recognize that even the best defensive players experience moments like the ones he attempted to cherry pick to discredit Matthews.

 

[Racer88]

You can watch whoever you want, but it doesn't really matter because it's about observing and acknowledging the things that happen to all players more than it is a direct comparison of players. In fact, it would probably be more beneficial for the individual to watch players with a great defensive reputation, regardless of salary, as it will help him recognize that even the best defensive players experience moments like the ones he attempted to cherry pick to discredit Matthews.

Sorry but you have to expect better out of a player making the top pay and let’s say a player making half. The top players should be way better or why are you paying him the top pay if you are comparing him to any old players.
In a hard cap world the price always matters

 

[Dekes For Days]

Sorry but you have to expect better out of a player making the top pay and let’s say a player making half. The top players should be way better or why are you paying him the top pay if you are comparing him to any old players.

Again, you've gone into an entirely different topic. Top players are paid more because they are better hockey players. That doesn't make them magically immune from things that all hockey players experience.