Are the Leafs a better TEAM without Matthews?

[Darcy Tucker]

 

[therealkoho]

Just a small anecdote.

In the recent Buffalo game the Sabres had just pulled their netminder. The Matthews Knies Marner line was out and had created a turnover in their defensive zone at the left halfwall. Marner was able to shovel the puck up to Matthews who was fighting off a check. It allowed Marner to get ahead of the puck and break the blueline out into open ice. Matthews got across the blueline and elected to shoot on the open net even though he had Sabres ahead of him cutting off shooting angles and a Sabre still harrasing him from behind. Marner who was closing on the redline had about 50 Sq ft of open ice around him and in a much better position to shoot. Instead the puck missed the open net by 10ft and created an icing.

Sometimes I think we can be a better team with Matthews, and then I see small things like this, and think sometimes not!

 

[HellasLEAF]

5v5 Matthews leads the league in most scoring chance and shooting categories xg/60, icf/60, ihdc/60, iFF/60, he is also 2nd in shots blocked /60 for centers, and among the top in faceoff win % and came back from IR.

We are very lucky to have him and stats indicate he's just been unlucky...if he keeps it, goals will start to come.

I've been saying this. A lot of fans only care if he scored 2-3 goals in the game. His on ice duties as centre not that relevant, pretty much never acknowledged.

 

[darrylsittler27]

Ironic. He is injured again. Like it or not a pattern of having to play without him is emerging.

 

[hullsy47]

Ironic. He is injured again. Like it or not a pattern of having to play without him is emerging.

I think we have a jack Eickle

 

[danny90]

Just a small anecdote.

In the recent Buffalo game the Sabres had just pulled their netminder. The Matthews Knies Marner line was out and had created a turnover in their defensive zone at the left halfwall. Marner was able to shovel the puck up to Matthews who was fighting off a check. It allowed Marner to get ahead of the puck and break the blueline out into open ice. Matthews got across the blueline and elected to shoot on the open net even though he had Sabres ahead of him cutting off shooting angles and a Sabre still harrasing him from behind. Marner who was closing on the redline had about 50 Sq ft of open ice around him and in a much better position to shoot. Instead the puck missed the open net by 10ft and created an icing.

Sometimes I think we can be a better team with Matthews, and then I see small things like this, and think sometimes not!

Up 2 goals at that point, can’t blame either of them

 

[Puckstuff]

If the leafs had Dobson and Pulock instead of Matthews are the leafs a better team? Imagine this defense

Rielly-Dobson
OEL-Pulock
McCabe—Tanev

 

[Arthur Morgan]

prob not but he's not the game changer I wish he was when it matters.

 

[therealkoho]

Up 2 goals at that point, can’t blame either of them

Its the idea that he's a wee bit selfish, I wouldn't have a clue what I'd be blaming Marner about or for in this instance

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

If the leafs had Dobson and Pulock instead of Matthews are the leafs a better team? Imagine this defense

Rielly-Dobson
OEL-Pulock
McCabe—Tanev

I think Horvat + Dobson for Matthews + Robertson + picks/prpspects would be a much better idea.

But I really like that proposed defense you posted too.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

I've been saying this. A lot of fans only care if he scored 2-3 goals in the game. His on ice duties as centre not that relevant, pretty much never acknowledged.

 

[Stephen]

I've been saying this. A lot of fans only care if he scored 2-3 goals in the game. His on ice duties as centre not that relevant, pretty much never acknowledged.

It's breakdowns like this that get on my nerves about Matthews defensive reputation:

 

[Dreakmur]

I think we have a jack Eickle

Is he related to Jack Eichel?

 

[Ports]

Marner is a more important contributor without Matthews in the lineup. That part is indisputable. How do they continue that when Matthews comes back into the lineup ? I think the unfortunate reality with Matthews is that he’s somewhat timid and rarely pushes back when confronted phyically. He leaves that to his teammates to do for him and that’s a problem. And now he seems to be fragile and injury prone and without his powerful shot. He’s still trying to shoot from everywhere but isn’t the scoring threat he once was. As long as he’s diminished in this way, the Leafs and Matthews need to adjust to this reality and not centre their offense around him as much and he has to evolve into more of a playmaker.

Is this guy worth 13M?

Last year probably but not right now. When healthy he’s arguably a top five player in the league.

 

[Sypher04]

It's breakdowns like this that get on my nerves about Matthews defensive reputation:

Matthews reputation as a top tier defensive forward is entirely earned.

Similar clips can be pulled for all of the players in that Selke conversation. Also isn’t that Dallas clip from just recently (he’s very obviously fighting an injury right now - rumoured to be his back - so that’s a factor there)

 

[Mugzy97]

Every hockey team in the world is a better team with Matthews on it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Matthews reputation as a top tier defensive forward is entirely earned. Similar clips can be pulled for all of the players in that Selke conversation. Also isn’t that Dallas clip from just recently (he’s very obviously fighting an injury right now - rumoured to be his back - so that’s a factor there)

Yep. You could get clips of just about anything for anyone if you try hard enough, and some do that to try and misrepresent players when all of the objective information contradicts their desired claim. What's more hilarious is that this is the best he could find. Matthews is really only to blame for the 3rd one, and that was clearly a miscommunication on a 3 on 3 line change. Heck, on the first one, he's literally the only one chasing down the breakaway that his defensemen allowed.

 

[SprDaVE]

It's breakdowns like this that get on my nerves about Matthews defensive reputation:

You would find those kind of clips with McDavid, Crosby, Barkov, Bergeron or Nik Lidstrom, etc in their prime. Cherry picking a few highlights and just omitting all the high level defensive plays he does is not really fair. No player is perfect...

 

[Stephen]

Matthews reputation as a top tier defensive forward is entirely earned.

Similar clips can be pulled for all of the players in that Selke conversation. Also isn’t that Dallas clip from just recently (he’s very obviously fighting an injury right now - rumoured to be his back - so that’s a factor there)

I don't think Matthews is a poor defensive player, but his Selke level is overstated. Like many aspects of his game outside of core scoring ability, there can be a lot of variation so you don't really know what you're going to get.

For example. He's not that physical. Except when he tries to be for a period or a game and dominates the power game. Then reverts to the usual. He's not a natural puck distributor, but makes Lemieux like passes on occasion. He's sometimes a shot blocking machine and a big takeaway guy. Then he's not. He's a dominant center who can carry the puck through the neutral zone with authority, but will defer to Mitch for vast stretches.

And just like his effort level, the defensive details are not always there. The back pressure isn't there, the puck management isn't. It doesn't add up to a Selke level forward.

 

[Stephen]

You would find those kind of clips with McDavid, Crosby, Barkov, Bergeron or Nik Lidstrom, etc in their prime. Cherry picking a few highlights and just omitting all the high level defensive plays he does is not really fair. No player is perfect...

McDavid and Crosby aren't Selke level forwards. Crosby has never been associated with that title, has never really come close to it. McDavid is quite poor defensively, so you'd doubtless be able to find videos of them screwing something up from the past 2 weeks.

Bergeron and Barkov have 8 Selke Trophies between them, so they are in fact Selke level forwards, while Matthews has 1x third place vote in 9 years, so I don't think we are talking about an equivalent level of defensive commitment, reputation. But I'm sure you can find something bad on them if you went looking (go ahead).

Lidstrom isn't a forward and is about as perfect as you can find historically, with 4 Stanley Cups and 7 Norris Trophies, so I'm sure you can find terrible video but he has bonafides that Matthews does not.

 

[SprDaVE]

McDavid and Crosby aren't Selke level forwards. Crosby has never been associated with that title, has never really come close to it. McDavid is quite poor defensively, so you'd doubtless be able to find videos of them screwing something up from the past 2 weeks.

Bergeron and Barkov have 8 Selke Trophies between them, so they are in fact Selke level forwards, while Matthews has 1x third place vote in 9 years, so I don't think we are talking about an equivalent level of defensive commitment, reputation. But I'm sure you can find something bad on them if you went looking (go ahead).

Lidstrom isn't a forward and is about as perfect as you can find historically, with 4 Stanley Cups and 7 Norris Trophies, so I'm sure you can find terrible video but he has bonafides that Matthews does not.

The Selke trophy is just that. I'm talking about defensive efforts and value. McDavid plays a ton of PK and if you want to defend a goal... guess who's on the ice? Crosby same deal without the PK. They are both very good defensively regardless of the Selke trophy accolade. The Hart and MVP trophys they have far trumps the Selke noms.

Matthews is very good defensively taking huge strides in that aspect last few years. He wins board battles and he's always making plays defensively. If you're sticking your hat on the Selke trophy, that's fine but I'd rather my top defensive center be a Hart level player anyway.

Finding a few highlights that show his lack of defensive prowess is not fair when there are countless of plays not recorded in a highlight that show his worth, that's all. I only bring up Barkov and Bergeron because they aren't/weren't perfect either despite their Selke domination.

 

[Stephen]

The Selke trophy is just that. I'm talking about defensive efforts and value. McDavid plays a ton of PK and if you want to defend a goal... guess who's on the ice? Crosby same deal without the PK. They are both very good defensively regardless of the Selke trophy accolade. The Hart and MVP trophys they have far trumps the Selke noms.

Matthews is very good defensively taking huge strides in that aspect last few years. He wins board battles and he's always making plays defensively. If you're sticking your hat on the Selke trophy, that's fine but I'd rather my top defensive center be a Hart level player anyway.

Finding a few highlights that show his lack of defensive prowess is not fair when there are countless of plays not recorded in a highlight that show his worth, that's all. I only bring up Barkov and Bergeron because they aren't perfect either despite their Selke domination.

No, I don't want McDavid on the ice in a defensive situation, that's not something I personally believe in. I think he and Draisaitl are terribly sloppy and something us Leafs fans have always enjoyed pointing out. Crosby is a different animal and a winner, but he's not a Selke branded forward so I don't expect air tight Crosby defense.

My problem with Matthews on the topic of defense isn't that he's terrible (see Draisaitl), it's that his commitment and consistency levels are all over the place, prone to some big break downs and that he shouldn't be considered a Selke level player even on a whisper campaign level. I don't think you're saying he's a Selke level forward with your dodge about the Hart Trophy comment either.

 

[SprDaVE]

No, I don't want McDavid on the ice in a defensive situation, that's not something I personally believe in. I think he and Draisaitl are terribly sloppy and something us Leafs fans have always enjoyed pointing out. Crosby is a different animal and a winner, but he's not a Selke branded forward so I don't expect air tight Crosby defense.

My problem with Matthews on the topic of defense isn't that he's terrible (see Draisaitl), it's that his commitment and consistency levels are all over the place, prone to some big break downs and that he shouldn't be considered a Selke level player even on a whisper campaign level. I don't think you're saying he's a Selke level forward with your dodge about the Hart Trophy comment either.

Yikes alright, I guess it's an agree to disagree situation lol

 

[Stephen]

Yikes alright, I guess it's an agree to disagree situation lol

McDavid starts less than 10% of his shifts in the defensive zone in 2023 and 2024.

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On % of defensive starts, McDavid currently ranks 10th among Oiler forwards, so I don't think he's quite the guy to start defensive situations out there.

Compared to our star guys, who actually are:

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

The Selke is the Hart trophy of the second tier players.

Winners are usually about a point a game player. They tend to start more in the offensive zone than the defensive zone. You never see anyone on the second or third line winning it.

It's always a top line centre.

I don't really consider these guys defensive forwards. They're just good players. But they have no chance at winning a Hart or Art Ross.

So the league throws these guys a bone by way of a consolation prize.

Think of the Selke compared to the Hart what the Intercontinental Champion belt is to the Heavyweight Champion in wrestling. These guys winning it are all good players. But to consider them the best defensive player is a bit of a stretch.

More like the most well rounded.