Are Any of the Forwards Really Expendable?

[Ricky Bobby]

He's the highest paid forward on this team isn't he? What do you want RC to do, start him against lesser competition? He is paid by far more than Bozak and Kadri, perhaps you should expect more from a 5.5M per player than make excuses for him. I know there are other Centers in the NHL that are paid less or similar that are producing with similar stats you have cited. Grabo is not one of them regardless of what excuses are made for him.

Please supply a list of who you'd get that is better than Grabo that won't cost a significant trade asset like a 1st, Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri, etc. going the other way?

We all know he's overpaid but his contract isn't hindering from doing anything.

 

[613Leafer]

Please supply a list of who you'd get that is better than Grabo that won't cost a significant trade asset like a 1st, Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri, etc. going the other way?

We all know he's overpaid but his contract isn't hindering from doing anything.

Longterm we obviously need an upgrade down the middle. Personally I think Bozak can play the shutdown centre role, especially with his FO abilities. And he could likely get signed for quite a bit less than Grabo.

Problem is that for the shortterm, we'd have no one to fill a top 6 role if Grabo got moved and Bozak was moved to the shutdown role. I think this summer we'd have a decent shot at a guy like Weiss, because before he has said he would only lift his NTC to go to Toronto (source: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/weiss-leafs/ ). But we obviously cant bank on that/just assume we'll get him. He's also not much of an upgrade over Grabo anyways.

So longterm I think Grabo is expendable. I also think we have tons of wing depth on the team and in the farm system, so MacArthur is also expendable IMO.

 

[BonMorrison]

Please supply a list of who you'd get that is better than Grabo that won't cost a significant trade asset like a 1st, Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri, etc. going the other way?

We all know he's overpaid but his contract isn't hindering from doing anything.

This - oh god, this.

People are in this salary cap uproar as if Grabovski's bad contract is preventing us from doing anything right now. We're doing fine against the cap. Yes, long term, Grabovski's cap hit will likely see him be moved off the team but short term, ya know, right now - when we're the team just trying to break a playoff drought, his cap hit is literally doing absolutely nothing to us.

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

He's the highest paid forward on this team isn't he? What do you want RC to do, start him against lesser competition? He is paid by far more than Bozak and Kadri, perhaps you should expect more from a 5.5M per player than make excuses for him. I know there are other Centers in the NHL that are paid less or similar that are producing with similar stats you have cited. Grabo is not one of them regardless of what excuses are made for him.

You didn't address a single thing I said. Go ahead and find other centers who are used the same way as Grabo and see how well they're doing. Or do a thought experiment - how many points do you think Kessel would have playing a shutdown role with McClement and Komarov?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

You didn't address a single thing I said. Go ahead and find other centers who are used the same way as Grabo and see how well they're doing. Or do a thought experiment - how many points do you think Kessel would have playing a shutdown role with McClement and Komarov?

Please supply a list of who you'd get that is better than Grabo that won't cost a significant trade asset like a 1st, Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri, etc. going the other way?

We all know he's overpaid but his contract isn't hindering from doing anything.

He's currently 64th in scoring for Centers in the NHL, surely we can name just about any top 6 C or even a #3C that is paid less or the same that has produced more than him.

Very easy go to NHL.com and you will see 63 Centers ahead of him.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

This - oh god, this.

People are in this salary cap uproar as if Grabovski's bad contract is preventing us from doing anything right now. We're doing fine against the cap. Yes, long term, Grabovski's cap hit will likely see him be moved off the team but short term, ya know, right now - when we're the team just trying to break a playoff drought, his cap hit is literally doing absolutely nothing to us.

Long term, our cap is going to be tight.

Decisions on Kessel, Kulemin, Kadri(let's hope it's not ROR), Bozak, plus we have to address a #1C. 5.5M for a top 6 C not shutdown C as many are excusing it as, will not be good for are cap situation when it goes down next year, he's got to go Ben, and I know you agree with me.

 

[crkkh]

At this point I am reasonably happy with our wingers...
Scoring in the top 6 with Lupul, Kessel, JVR and Frattin...
3rd line includes Kulemin, MacArthur and Komorov...
All of the 3rd liners can step up to 2nd in case of injuries...
4th line includes Komorov, Orr and McLaren...
Tough and Komorov can step up...

I'd keep them, except for legitimate upgrade...

Centres...I like Kadri as top 2...Bozak as 3rd (if he'll sign for that)...McCLement as 4th...
I would however move Grabovski if a good offer came...(1st and good prospect?)...his contract is a bit much for his contributions...as well, he is being asked currently to be the "shut down guy", which really throws his price tag out of whack...
The Leafs are still going to need to upgrade centre...I expect that Kadri and McClement are safe, as Bozak would be if slotted properly...So Grabovski is the centre at risk, and that 5.5 million would go a long way to contributing to another top 6 Centre (even if a very young one like Kadri)

 

[BonMorrison]

Long term, our cap is going to be tight.

Decisions on Kessel, Kulemin, Kadri(let's hope it's not ROR), Bozak, plus we have to address a #1C. 5.5M for a top 6 C not shutdown C as many are excusing it as, will not be good for are cap situation when it goes down next year, he's got to go Ben, and I know you agree with me.

- name is Bon. See Username.

And I know. I said that. I'm discussing short term, short term being this season and this season only especially if playoffs are on the horizon. I already agreed that long term he's on his way out so I don't see why you're arguing with me here, lol.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

- name is Bon. See Username.

And I know. I said that. I'm discussing short term, short term being this season and this season only especially if playoffs are on the horizon. I already agreed that long term he's on his way out so I don't see why you're arguing with me here, lol.

Wasn't arguing, I said you agreed Bon.

 

[p.l.f.]

steckel has to go
a callup as his replacement should do fine

 

[Ricky Bobby]

He's currently 64th in scoring for Centers in the NHL, surely we can name just about any top 6 C or even a #3C that is paid less or the same that has produced more than him.

Very easy go to NHL.com and you will see 63 Centers ahead of him.

63 centers who have played about a whopping 20 games this year. Huge sample size there.

Of those 63 how many have a good track record or are projected to do well in the future?

Once you narrow that list of 63 down to guys you'd want to acqurie how would you get one of them without giving up a top asset like a 1st, Gardiner, Kadri, Rielly, etc.

Of those 63 how many play in a primarily defensive role like Grabo? Do you know what defensive zone starts vs. offensive zone starts is?

These are direct question, I'll be amazed if you can answer one of them let all alone of them with a decent answer.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Longterm we obviously need an upgrade down the middle. Personally I think Bozak can play the shutdown centre role, especially with his FO abilities. And he could likely get signed for quite a bit less than Grabo.

Problem is that for the shortterm, we'd have no one to fill a top 6 role if Grabo got moved and Bozak was moved to the shutdown role. I think this summer we'd have a decent shot at a guy like Weiss, because before he has said he would only lift his NTC to go to Toronto (source: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/weiss-leafs/ ). But we obviously cant bank on that/just assume we'll get him. He's also not much of an upgrade over Grabo anyways.

So longterm I think Grabo is expendable. I also think we have tons of wing depth on the team and in the farm system, so MacArthur is also expendable IMO.

I agree completely.

After we shed the salaries of Liles, Komisarek and don't reink CMac Nonis has a lot of cap space to work with in the off-season.

Signing UFAs usually requires overpaying so there is a good chance we end up with a contract as suspect as Grabo if we go the UFA route with someone like a Weiss.

The Grabo contract isn't an issue right now and there is a good chance it might not even be an issue next season. However, I don't expect him to live out the full length of his deal in Toronto.

 

[Kurisu]

63 centers who have played about a whopping 20 games this year. Huge sample size there.

Of those 63 how many have a good track record or are projected to do well in the future?

Once you narrow that list of 63 down to guys you'd want to acqurie how would you get one of them without giving up a top asset like a 1st, Gardiner, Kadri, Rielly, etc.

Of those 63 how many play in a primarily defensive role like Grabo? Do you know what defensive zone starts vs. offensive zone starts is?

These are direct question, I'll be amazed if you can answer one of them let all alone of them with a decent answer.

guy hates Grabo with a passion, you won't find logic or answers from him.

 

[Bomber0104]

Maybe because you're not trying to understand, just like the rest of the cretins on this board who don't have a clue what they're talking about?

Grabo starts 33.6% of his even-strength shifts in the offensive zone. He plays against tougher competition than Bozak with worse linemates. And go figure, he's still outscoring Bozak even strength despite spending time with guys like Kulemin and Komarov who are shooting under 5% on the season (how's he supposed to get assists with them?). He gets half as many minutes as Bozak on the PP, usually with guys who aren't his usual linemates and who only play with him for 2 or 3 shifts a game, so big ****ing surprise he's not scoring.

For reference, last season Grabo started 53% of his shifts in the offensive zone, spent more time with MacArthur and had Kulemin shooting a lousy 6.5%... which is still an improvement over this season, amazingly.

Pretty sure the only reason Grabo is the preferred line for defensive zone starts is because Randy would rather turn to two other lines for an offensive scoring chance.

Grabo's line is terrible offensively and this is in large part to do with him. What kind of a top six center isn't a playmaker (but rather a puckhog sorta sniper) anyway?

 

[Ricky Bobby]

guy hates Grabo with a passion, you won't find logic or answers from him.

LOL True enough.

I also don't like Grabo and was one of the few people saying he was vastly over-rated in the past. However, he is the best option we have at the moment.

After we move Liles and Komisarek if Grabo is the worst contract we have then we're doing pretty darn good. Also once we move out Liles and Komisarek we've got a nice amount of cap space to add a significant salary or possibly two in the off-season.

Grabo has a high cap hit but unless we've got somewhere better to use it then cap space is just a thing for the fantasy roster builders.

 

[Myke]

Everyone seems to be suggesting Clarke MacArthur is expendable. Yeah he's playing well, and now would be a great time to move him. I get that and really wouldn't have an issue with it.

However why not try a setup that gives us three scoring lines?

Put Lupul back with Kessel and Bozak. It worked well last year and Lupul and Kessel had insane chemistry together.

Then move JVR to a line with Kadri/Frattin. Frattin and Kadri have already displayed their chemistry together multiple times (AHL playoffs, before Frattin went down this year), so it just makes sense to have them on the same line. Put JVR on the other side and give them some more time. Gives Kadri even more to work with and get creative.

Re-unite the MacA/Grabo/Kulemin line. Maybe MacArthur's hot streak catches on for Grabo/Kulemin. It certainly wouldn't hurt to give Grabo a more offensively talented linemate than McClement.

Push McClement to a line with Komarov and swap Orr/McLaren in and out with each other. 4th line becomes more defensively responsible but still has the toughness of Orr/McLaren and the tenacity of Komarov.

Role three scoring lines and one energy line.

I like everything you just said.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

63 centers who have played about a whopping 20 games this year. Huge sample size there.

Of those 63 how many have a good track record or are projected to do well in the future?

Once you narrow that list of 63 down to guys you'd want to acqurie how would you get one of them without giving up a top asset like a 1st, Gardiner, Kadri, Rielly, etc.

Of those 63 how many play in a primarily defensive role like Grabo? Do you know what defensive zone starts vs. offensive zone starts is?

These are direct question, I'll be amazed if you can answer one of them let all alone of them with a decent answer.

Is this this the basis of your whole arguement? Defensive zone starts? You are going to have come up with something more compelling than this to get Grabo off the hook for his lacklustre, inconsistent play this year.

Here's facts for you that pertain to Grabo's production. Grabo had 3 points in the last 10 games last season under RC, ok small sample then too, 23 games in now, 10 points. 64th in the NHL for Centers at 5.5M per, 4 of which are assists, not surprising since the guy never has been much of a playmaker. When does the sample become valid to you?

Bottom line is Grabo is making 5.5M per, he is facing top 6 competition like he did under RW, the only difference is he is playing a system for the first time in his career that requires defence. He doesn't have the often maligned Macarthur anymore to help set him up for goals because apparently Grabo needed to be surrounded by better players, Kadri is doing just fine with Mac and Frattin, Orr or Komarov. All players Grabo has played with.

So my question to you is the whole basis for Grabo's declined production according to you is defensive starts? Really? and even if he did, don't you expect more from the highest paid Fwd on the team? Nevermind the points, 10 and 64th in the NHL, but faceoff wise, PK wise, making his teammates better, leadership, any intangible you want to name.

You are fine with excusing his performance this year based on his defensive zone starts...

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Is this this the basis of your whole arguement? Defensive zone starts? You are going to have come up with something more compelling than this to get Grabo off the hook for his lacklustre, inconsistent play this year.

Here's facts for you that pertain to Grabo's production. Grabo had 3 points in the last 10 games last season under RC, ok small sample then too, 23 games in now, 10 points. 64th in the NHL for Centers at 5.5M per, 4 of which are assists, not surprising since the guy never has been much of a playmaker. When does the sample become valid to you?

Bottom line is Grabo is making 5.5M per, he is facing top 6 competition like he did under RW, the only difference is he is playing a system for the first time in his career that requires defence. He doesn't have the often maligned Macarthur anymore to help set him up for goals because apparently Grabo needed to be surrounded by better players, Kadri is doing just fine with Mac and Frattin, Orr or Komarov. All players Grabo has played with.

So my question to you is the whole basis for Grabo's declined production according to you is defensive starts? Really? and even if he did, don't you expect more from the highest paid Fwd on the team? Nevermind the points, 10 and 64th in the NHL, but faceoff wise, PK wise, making his teammates better, leadership, any intangible you want to name.

You are fine with excusing his performance this year based on his defensive zone starts...

I have never once said Grabo is ideal. We can both agree that his contract is far from ideal.

But who is going to replace his minutes that is an upgrade that won't involve us mortgaging the future by trading out significant assets?

Liles and Komisarek are both gone by the deadline or off-season at the latest. Freeing up lots of cap space to add significant salary this off-season.

Trust me when I say I've never been a Grabo soppurter as I've always found him to lack hockey sense with how much he skates around with his head down and gets hit which sometimes get confused by some people as him having heart.

But I also recognize the Grabo contract isn't an issue now and probably won't even be next season. If the Grabo contract becomes an issue then it gets dealt with at that time just like much much worse contracts like Gomez, Blake, Redden, Drury were dealt with WHEN THEY NEEDED TO BE.

As much as you don't want to admit it, the Leafs need Grabo for the time being.

 

[LeafsJaysRaptors]

steckel has to go
a callup as his replacement should do fine

Steckel is irrelevant, he's easily replaced by someone on the Marlies. He's a non issue

 

[HockeyThoughts]

Pretty sure the only reason Grabo is the preferred line for defensive zone starts is because Randy would rather turn to two other lines for an offensive scoring chance.

Grabo's line is terrible offensively and this is in large part to do with him. What kind of a top six center isn't a playmaker (but rather a puckhog sorta sniper) anyway?

Just because he doesn't fit your idea of a top 6 center doesn't make him any less of one. Steven Stamkos, Vincent Lecavalier, Jeff Carter..etc are examples of shoot-first centers. Mikhail Grabovski's line hasn't excelled this season as a result of being given the responbility of facing the oppositions top players and shutting them down. They haven't had the opportunity to face lesser pairings, received sheltered minutes or receive top-notch PP minutes. The two constants on the shutdown line (Nikolai Kulemin and Grabovski) are both on pace for ~40pts this season which is perfectly respectable production stemming from our #1 shutdown line and #3 offensive line.

 

[Kingstonian84*]

As much as you don't want to admit it, the Leafs need Grabo for the time being.

- I disagree! Kadri has shown he is much superior offensively to Grabo this season, so it wont be an issue. Grabo's being used in a SD role, but really Mcclement is much better suited, he's solid on faceoffs and a much better defensive player then Grabo is.

Use Mcclement in Grabo's role, and Kadri stays where he's at. Grabo is replacable in that sense, however the problem is his ugly contract, not many teams are going to touch that with a 10 foot pole so in that sense yea your right we are stuck with him.

 

[HockeyThoughts]

He's currently 64th in scoring for Centers in the NHL, surely we can name just about any top 6 C or even a #3C that is paid less or the same that has produced more than him.

Very easy go to NHL.com and you will see 63 Centers ahead of him.

Yeah, because looking at NHL.com's scoring list is a sure-fire method of choosing the superior player.

This really explains a lot about your so called "analysis..."

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I have never once said Grabo is ideal. We can both agree that his contract is far from ideal.

But who is going to replace his minutes that is an upgrade that won't involve us mortgaging the future by trading out significant assets?

Liles and Komisarek are both gone by the deadline or off-season at the latest. Freeing up lots of cap space to add significant salary this off-season.

Trust me when I say I've never been a Grabo soppurter as I've always found him to lack hockey sense with how much he skates around with his head down and gets hit which sometimes get confused by some people as him having heart.

But I also recognize the Grabo contract isn't an issue now and probably won't even be next season. If the Grabo contract becomes an issue then it gets dealt with at that time just like much much worse contracts like Gomez, Blake, Redden, Drury were dealt with WHEN THEY NEEDED TO BE.

As much as you don't want to admit it, the Leafs need Grabo for the time being.

Contract is an issue, not sure why we can't see what is coming up on the horizon, when Kessel, Phaneuf, Macarthur, and Bozak are signings on the radar. Kadri and Kule are inpending RFA's. We need to address Goaltending and #2D and Fwd, possible be a #1B C.

All I know is Bozak's agent will look at what Grabo is making and if he is a good agent will ask something in the same neighbourhood. Kessel will not accept less or the same as Grabo is making as will Phaneuf.

It's a trickle down effect, you want players to take the home discount, but not when the home is paying a top 6 C that is playing like a bottom 6 C. Quite the dilemma for Nonis, easy and best thing to do is cut Grabo loose, buy out is the last resort. Ideally you'd like to get something for him,

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Yeah, because looking at NHL.com's scoring list is a sure-fire method of choosing the superior player.

This really explains a lot about your so called "analysis..."

The top 3 leading scorers are Crosby, Stamkos, and St Louis. What's wrong with any of them...

Regardless I know what you are saying, and I agree, 51 points in a system as leaky as Ron Wilson's is a lot different than 10 in 23 games under a coach like Randy Carlyle's.

Funny how some players look when they are required to play defence huh?

 

[613Leafer]

Contract is an issue, not sure why we can't see what is coming up on the horizon, when Kessel, Phaneuf, Macarthur, and Bozak are signings on the radar. Kadri and Kule are inpending RFA's. We need to address Goaltending and #2D and Fwd, possible be a #1B C.

If Grabo was getting ~3-3.5M a year, would you be OK keeping him as the 3rd line C/ shutdown C?

He actually seems to be doing a really solid job... look at our GAA this year compared to last year? And he's providing the type of depth scoring you expect from an elite 3rd line C.

If it weren't for his contract, I'd be ok with keeping him (in his current role) and trading Bozak. But his contract is just a killer, and the fact that he doesn't play on the PK is a negative as well. Sure, it's not a problem right now, but in terms of building the team for the longhaul it IS a problem to have multiple guys overpaid by 1.5-2M. We may as well try and get an asset for him now (or the offseason), since if it's a futures package, it will take years to develop.

Bozak can fill the shutdown role in an equally acceptable manner IMO, but at a lower cap hit. Bozak could provide secondary scoring, is solid on the dot, and is a fairly strong defensive player, which should only improve if he starts treating that as his #1 priority and focuses more on practicing that aspect of his game, doing pre-game preparation for that type of role, etc.